TWG XXI: X-Men Lockdown (Humans Win)

[Omeganitros]

Well, too bad. It was my open and honest reason for voting him, and if I were a wolf, I probably would have just said "Ya i think he's a wulf to cuz dat caht wuz strnge tps"

[Tasselfoot]

Chardish. You've had my eye since day 1.

-On day 1, you try and push ap as wolfish
-You continue to attack ap in public on day 1. ap shoots you down hardcore, and you completely back off without another mention of ap until after i bring it up about 3 times on day 3, and even then in 1 line
-Your ideas of keeping Hans alive after we have an allice, FOR WHATEVER REASON is just plain stupid. Not to mention wanting to use the vigi to kill the wolf instead of voting him off is retarded as well. The extra day is HUGE, and you know it. You seem to be doing everything in your power to get rid of that extra day. Well, now there won't be, even if I do use my vigi powers.
-Your continuing to tell the guardian to guard me seems to read like this in a guardians mind: "Hey, all the wolves know that I'm guarding Tass, cause Chardish said it in the thread in big bold letters... So I could guard someone else and not worry about it.", Then you come back and try and kill me... just like you did Kilga, and just like you TRIED to do to me. It won't work.
-There are only so many people that would have the balls to kill Kilga then attack me... you're on that short list. I mean, you have really small balls, but the way your mind works is to go to the simple plan, always. Vizzini to the 1st degree. Its your MO. It even worked once this game... but not the 2nd time.

[User6773]

Chardish. You've had my eye since day 1.

It sucks that I've been voted on by the leader of the alliance, which pretty much means I'm probably going to get falsely lynched today. Nevertheless, I do want to keep playing, so I better try to save my own arse.

-On day 1, you try and push ap as wolfish

And you've said on more than one occasion that ap is high on your suspicion list somehow. I don't see how it's evidence that I think someone is wolfish about whose humanity we know nothing.

If I was pushing Kilga as wolfish, that'd be reason to send me to the gallows, but AP is a wildcard and you know it.

-You continue to attack ap in public on day 1. ap shoots you down hardcore, and you completely back off without another mention of ap until after i bring it up about 3 times on day 3, and even then in 1 line

No one was really paying attention to my arguments against AP it seemed like and I know how personal battles between two people - especially when they're two humans - can really play off to an advantage for the wolves when people start suspecting for no good reason that one of them must be a wolf. What was important then was deciding what we wanted to do involving Hans, the bookie, and Day 2, and me trying to keep the focus on aperson would have just gotten in the way and obfuscated things.

-Your ideas of keeping Hans alive after we have an allice, FOR WHATEVER REASON is just plain stupid. Not to mention wanting to use the vigi to kill the wolf instead of voting him off is retarded as well. The extra day is HUGE, and you know it. You seem to be doing everything in your power to get rid of that extra day. Well, now there won't be, even if I do use my vigi powers.

Please explain to me how this is stupid because you haven't. If everyone votes for the obvious wolf then you don't really learn anything from that day, right? You're offing a wolf, pushing the game forward to the next day, and losing another human the next night.

My point is that this "extra day" you're referring to is completely wasted when everyone just decides to instalynch the wolf, which is exactly what happened. My point was that with 4 wolves left and a probable vigi power later on, we didn't really need to end the day immediately and stop learning from that day.

If you had done as I said, we would have killed TPS day 1 instead of day 2 - and, surprise surprise, he turned out to be a wolf - and then who knows what would have gone down yesterday. Basically it could have played out so that we would win the game in 3 days.

I can understand a bit of resistance to this plan, but I don't really think it's "just plain stupid." Maybe flawed in some respects, but what plan isn't?

As for the "you seem to be doing everything in your power to get rid of the extra day", you're probably referring to the plan I came up with Day 1 for not lynching Hans until Day 2 - a plan which you yourself endorsed and even jocularly took credit for. "Chardish's Corollary to Tass's Vigilante Plan", you called it. This doesn't strike me as "just plain stupid" and I don't see you putting a name on a plan that you later would call "just plain stupid." It makes me wonder why you're suddenly suspecting me. I really hope this is just an attempt to get me talking more.

-Your continuing to tell the guardian to guard me seems to read like this in a guardians mind: "Hey, all the wolves know that I'm guarding Tass, cause Chardish said it in the thread in big bold letters... So I could guard someone else and not worry about it.", Then you come back and try and kill me... just like you did Kilga, and just like you TRIED to do to me. It won't work.

1) You know my policy on guardianing is that the most valuable player should always be guardianed. This goes all the way back to that one game - I forget which one- where Kefit was the guardian and you were the alliance ringleader and you let the seer die because you thought that you were a more likely kill for the night. No, the guardian's job is to always guard the player most valuable for the humans.

2) It became obvious after Night 2 that the guardian is an ignorant twit who doesn't know how to play the game without handholding.

3) Honestly, didn't you say the same thing to the guardian? "I'm the most important player, as the center of the alliance, so guard me no matter what." I don't have the luxury of being a confirmed blue like you. If I want to say something to the guardian, I have to say it publicly.

4) You have thought time and again that after a successful guardianing the wolves wouldn't risk another high-profile kill. Clearly we are dealing with wolves with whom this line of thinking doesn't apply, and I would still bet on them trying to off you again tonight.

5) After your mistake with Kefit referenced in 1) I don't really trust you to be able to handle the guardian without handholding. I think that your gut right now is to tell the guardian to guard someone else, and that's something I don't want to see happen because I'd be willing to bet on the wolves going after you again tonight. Though I suppose I can count on the guardian to keep guarding you every night, since when the good of the team and saving your own arse are the same goal, you'd be more than happy to keep being guarded ; )

So that's why I've been telling the guardian to guard you in big bold letters.

-There are only so many people that would have the balls to kill Kilga then attack me... you're on that short list. I mean, you have really small balls, but the way your mind works is to go to the simple plan, always. Vizzini to the 1st degree. Its your MO. It even worked once this game... but not the 2nd time.

You call that whole thing I engineered with TPS a "simple plan?" Remember, before I did that selling out your own wolf was something unheard of, and now it's something that comes up in every single game. I also invented the phony PM idea back in a BMS TWG. I only have a simple mind when I'm a human, because that's how humans have to operate. Without taking risks. When I'm a wolf I go into full cunning/calculating/manipulative mode, and that's simply not what's going on here.

Just because you're a confirmed blue doesn't mean your logic is flawless. Sorry Tass, but you're wrong.

[talisman]

dude for the hans plan it has been explained NUMEROUS times why it is dumb. You just said it yourself "we lynch tps day one." Who, pray tell, then, does the bookie bet on for day two to get the vigi to kill hans? It's a bad idea, through and through, and lets a confirmed wolf live at the risk of possibly lynching a human.

[User6773]

a) I was counting on the bookie to have enough smarts to be able to call a nighttime kill, as those are usually easier to call than lynchings. And with the number of rollover votes we've had this game, calling a lynching shouldn't be difficult either.

b) But we would have lynched TPS, who we all now know was a wolf. At the beginning of Day 2 the score would be exactly the same. The difference is that if the bookie had gotten a vigi right, the bookie could have dealt with Hans and everything would have been fine. Using vigi powers to kill a known confirmed wolf is always better than lynching.
Worst case scenario, we would have lynched Hans on Day 4 instead of Day 1. Best case scenario, we would have won the game in 3 days instead of 4, vigi'ing Hans at the beginning of Day 3 and then succesfully lynching the final wolf. Explain to me why that's a bad thing?

And there's no real danger to leaving Hans alive when everyone - INCLUDING Hans - realizes that he's dead as soon as we decide he is. ESPECIALLY when there's an alliance.

c) Even if it is a bad idea, is it worth lynching me over? See if I ever propose strategies ever again, if I get votes against me if my ideas don't get the Official Tasselfoot Seal Of Quality.

[talisman]

Well the problem is that we didn't all know tps was a wolf at the time, and your best case scenario means that we would get insanely lucky and manage to vote off a wolf every single day.

Also I'm not voting you, only tass is now, so I don't think you have to worry about getting lynched too much.

[Tasselfoot]

OK... The day ends at 7pm tonight, so we need to figure things out. Frankly, I'm still wary of Chardish, but his explanations are adequite for now. I'm really not sure what the costs/benefits of implimenting what Chardish said... using the vigi instead of a lynch to kill a confirmed wolf. I did it in XV (that game keeps coming up, huh) to ap, and Fish did it in XX. Perhaps it is a better idea than I'm giving credit. But, in both cases, it didn't involve keeping a known wolf alive.

Well, if I'm not going to go Chardish, I'll have to go Guido. I can't stop sneezing, so I'll give some hopefully better evidence once it stops.

[evilbutterfly]

I don't see how Chardish could possibly be a wolf, simply because he would be selling out 2 wolf buddies. I mean, selling out one he would do, but both of them at the same time, when they're close to being lynched anyway....nah. Then again, I don't really know Chardish, so correct me if I'm wrong and he's a crazy bastard.

As for the plan...it relies way too much on the humans doing everything right. In the best case scenario, it's great! However, the worst case scenario (or any case other than the best) is really bad. If we had let Hans live and our Day 1 lynch had been a human (extremely likely), that alone would counteract the possible good of winning with one more human alive. The vigi of Hans would also lose us that extra day, which could be the day where the humans win. Who cares what day we win on or how many of us are still alive? We don't all get points/pips based on how many of our teammates are alive when the game ends, do we? I mean, if we did, I might see where you're coming from, but the plan is just a big risk to "get more points" which is something that, given the current state of no pips, is utterly pointless.

[FishFishRevolution]

Day 3 Current Votes:

Omeganitros: (2) Afrobean, evilbutterfly, Chardish
Chardish: (0) Tass
Guido: (1) Tass

Day ends tonight at 7PM. If I'm not around to end the day, it's still over, and PMs can be immediately sent so we can get through the night more quickly.


EDIT: Mistype.

[lightdarkness]

Chardish has sold out a wolf before *cough*TPS*cough*.

It'd be the perfect cover to do it again, but with TPS's concent this time

[Tasselfoot]

Also, eb... he only "sold out" TPS. Hans was dead anyway.

[nforcer06164]

Wow. Hooray for drama. I'm left with no idea who to vote for. I have no suspicion on anybody anymore, so, I'm at a loss =/ I'm random voting for Qreepy to avoid a phantom. I don't know if I'll be back in time to change it if anything else comes up.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm pointing this out, but I think I know who the guardian is. I'm just going to call it a gut feeling, because that's all it is. I just got it while looking through the user list. Not like it makes any difference.

[talisman]

Actually tass I can sort of see where you're coming from with guido. He seems almost more active than normal. Hmm. I gotta go to class etc, be back mid afternoon hopefully with an idea of who to vote for (if not omega).

[Tasselfoot]

Grrr... I just spent about 30 minutes in the "Search" tab looking at how Guido has acted the past few games. He's been rather active this game, albiet with semi-obvious posts. TWG19 he hosted, TWG18 he was a wolf and was somehow "away" for 2/3 of the game... made about 8 posts in the entire game. Also, his posts were much more coherent as a wolf than as a human. Then I looked at TWG17, and his behavior is similar to this game... aka, he is acting bullyish as a human, telling people what to do when people aren't really listening to him... things like he is doing this game.

And, earlier in the game, he made a post regarding Chardish which was interesting.... it commented on Chardish saying "TPS is just going to die tomorrow anyway" or something like that. This was on day 1... which is really dumb. It just is. But we see TPS was a wolf... which makes him almost certainly human, right? But we KNOW Chardish is willing to sacrifice TPS...

So again, who would attack Kilga and myself back to back nights other than those 2? ap or blah... *sigh*. Ap has definately been acting as if he's a green. And blah hasn't posted enough to give me any sort of reading... except for his rather flaccid post regarding guido/chardish. I expect alot from blah, and didn't get it.

I'm damn confused on who to vote for.

[JurseyRider734]

Wow. Hooray for drama. I'm left with no idea who to vote for. I have no suspicion on anybody anymore, so, I'm at a loss =/ I'm random voting for Qreepy to avoid a phantom. I don't know if I'll be back in time to change it if anything else comes up.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm pointing this out, but I think I know who the guardian is. I'm just going to call it a gut feeling, because that's all it is. I just got it while looking through the user list. Not like it makes any difference.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this really doesn't fly well with me. nforcer's always claiming he has no idea what's going on, when you could easily pick up on what's happening by just reading the thread. Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think too much is being discussed outside of this thread. Besides, why would you try to find out who the guardian is? Wolf, maybe? I'm sick of always reading your posts and them always being you undecided and clueless about the game when it's not hard to read the past few pages to figure out what's happening, nforcer.