TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

[Afrobean]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

danceguy: obviously my alternative isn't foolproof. Nothing in this game could be foolproof as a universal team plan.

That's kind of the point of the prisoner's dilemma as a thought experiment. It's technically in everyone's best interest to trust, but people are selfish and are likely to choose their own self-interest even if it actually hurts them overall.

[dAnceguy117]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

I have not received a power.

so who's lying? exiting times yo

Lynches end the day unless otherwise specified, and if your power didn't say anything about not ending the day (which it obviously didn't), it should have been assumed that your lynch would end the day.

I assumed no death would result in the phase continuing. obviously my assumption was incorrect, but I don't think you can hold that against the power holder unless you think that was actually specified in the PM and he's lying about it.

danceguy: obviously my alternative isn't foolproof. Nothing in this game could be foolproof as a universal team plan.

That's kind of the point of the prisoner's dilemma as a thought experiment. It's technically in everyone's best interest to trust, but people are selfish and are likely to choose their own self-interest even if it actually hurts them overall.

yeah I get why always trusting is typically the best plan, but the setup here muddles things. trust-trust isn't verifiable after the fact. betraying is also tough to detect.

[yo man im awesome]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Basically: YOU ARE WRONG. Lying CAN NOT be allowed as a viable option. If someone is known to have lied, they MUST be punished for it. If you have a plan which requires you to lie, regardless of your alignment, you need to understand that lying comes with the risk of being lynched for it. If we allow lying and accept liars, we're basically handing the reigns over to the wolves. Should we accept it if someone says, "I'm not a wolf, I was just lying because it makes the game more fun!" What if someone says "I was only fake claiming to be the seer because I thought it would make the game more fun!" Jesus. Jrodd was explicitly and intentionally pushing false information. He was lying like this explicitly because he wanted to trick people into thinking he was trustworthy when he wasn't! How do you not see how selfish and crazy sketchy that is?

"I'm not a wolf, I was just lying because it makes the game more fun!"

Did I say that?

I said people having differing playstyles makes the game more fun, as opposed to following one specific playstyle that quite frankly doesn't sound appealing. I'm not playing this just to win, I want to enjoy myself in the process. This game should feel like a GAME, not a JOB where I follow your rules and your guidelines. ESPECIALLY if you're not even the host. I mean really, you're telling us what to do as if you run the place and as if there is no alternative that can win this game. Give me a break.

People do different things to get different results. If we do the same thing over and over again, we'll get the same results, and again, I don't want that, because that would be BORING.

Humans lie in this game to create and judge reactions from different people.

I'm not saying Lynch-All-Liars is a straight up bad idea, because it isn't. But if you think you think that's the only thing we should do now and forever, you need to get your priorities straight.

[Afrobean]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

@danceguy: Trust/trust is verifiable if both players get power and say so. Reason: if a wolf is paired with a human and the human chooses trust (and that human tells the truth, because why would they lie?), even if the wolf lied about getting a power, we'd still trust the "trust"-ing human half who says they both chose trust. Basically, if both players claim "trust" and claim getting a power, we have no reason not to believe the claim.

In the case of one getting a power and the other one not, that's where it's not possible to confirm it concretely, but looking at trends over time, we would be able to consider which living players have an inordinate amount of partners failing to get powers. Just as lynch-all-liars discourages wolves from broad lying the same as it discourages townies from broad lying, this would discourage ALL players from claiming to choose "trust", but actually betraying. If someone betrays, we can catch them over time, at least if the plan is enacted with enough days before the end of the game. A single day's dilemma data isn't enough to catch a betrayer, but if there's a pattern over multiple days, we could be able to see it. And I think wolves are more likely to go with the flow to avoid the extra scrutiny in this case, so long as they could trust that everyone else would be trusting too. For wolves, if they choose trust, they're basically ensuring ~50% of their team gets powers and they would get to do this without having to lie or trick anyone. That's AS GOOD or BETTER rates than any other stratagem the wolves might think to employ. It's in the wolves' best interest to trust just as it's in the humans' best interest to always trust. We just all need to trust that everyone will do the right thing and also trust.

Maybe the most problematic thing is that if both players say they didn't powers. But basically, the datum that's more important isn't what a PLAYER claims, but what their PARTNER claims. Wolves could lie and claim to have gotten no power, but because the pairings are random, they wouldn't be able to disrupt data for individual townies very much. However, data for the partners of wolves would be liable to expose a betrayer more readily. Basically: I don't think a false-positive of trying to find betrayers based on the data of their partner's power results is too likely. If a wolf lies about not getting a power when they did, their townie partner won't likely appear to have the "pattern" of their partner failing to get powers that I referred to in the previous paragraph.

@yo man im awful: Ugh. Again, read these:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...ynch_All_Liars

http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org/wiki/Lynch_all_liars

If you still disagree, read every page in the following until you understand:
http://www.google.com/search?q=lynch+all+liars

You are wrong. We cannot abide liars. Period. If a human has a plan which involves lying, they have to know that they're risking getting lynched to use that plan. They have to weigh the costs of the lie. Liars MUST be punished.

But yes, sometimes humans need to lie. For example, in a seer+guardian game, the seer could publicly reveal themselves and claim to have not gotten in touch with the guardian when they really had. This lie could encourage the wolves to attack the seer while he's guarded or it could encourage the wolves to make a fake role claim privately. But more than anything else: the human doing the lying measures the cost of lying versus the benefit of lying. For the seer in this scenario, they will not be exposed as a liar, so there is no risk and some potential benefit! Thus, lying is totally OK for the seer in this case. However, in most gambits that involve greens lying, they're done selfishly and stupidly and are BAD IDEAS. This is coming from someone who themselves tried to lie as a green. One of my early games here, I fake roleclaimed as seer and it was VERY STUPID of me. I was trying to trap a wolf, and my plan backfired and I got lynched over it, hurting my team. Green gambits that involve lying almost always hurt the human cause. Jrodd's lie hurts our ability to aggregate accurate data, and it would fool individuals to choosing trust against him while he would be betraying them each night, just as some would think the wolves would if we were to enact my "always trust" plan. His selfish shit would be fucking the humans, his lie is NOT good for the team.

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

That's how I was thinking, why would a human want to lie and make themselves look suspicious? Doesn't seem worth the risk of a lynch to do that to gague reactions.

[dAnceguy117]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

that applies to everyone, though. why would a wolf want to lie and make themselves look suspicious?

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

that applies to everyone, though. why would a wolf want to lie and make themselves look suspicious?

I don't know, maybe it was a slip up.

[j-rodd123]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Afros posts are so wrong and tunnelly it's funny, I need power back so I can actually type a response.

And @psycho plz read I wasn't trying to gauge reactions why can't u see the personal benefit it would give me?

Afro u have given no reason why I'm a wolf, what wolf would do what I have done it gives no advantage.

Lastly this lynch all liars thing is lol, maybe this is why the best players from mafiascum don't perform the best in the game of champions on the poker forums and these ppl were voted best by mafia scum.

This game isn't a vanilla, me lying has not harmed my team, if anything you should appreciate I'm trying to gain an edge over wolves. It's kind of funny because in the preface thread a vid was linked of the split or steal game and the guy said he's gonna steal and split after the game, and guess what he split. He lied and became trustworthy and it was through this prisoners dilemma which is what this game is based around. Kind of not the same as hard claiming seer at must lynch and retracting it

[j-rodd123]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Lol slip up

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Afros posts are so wrong and tunnelly it's funny, I need power back so I can actually type a response.

And @psycho plz read I wasn't trying to gauge reactions why can't u see the personal benefit it would give me?

Afro u have given no reason why I'm a wolf, what wolf would do what I have done it gives no advantage.

Lastly this lynch all liars thing is lol, maybe this is why the best players from mafiascum don't perform the best in the game of champions on the poker forums and these ppl were voted best by mafia scum.

This game isn't a vanilla, me lying has not harmed my team, if anything you should appreciate I'm trying to gain an edge over wolves. It's kind of funny because in the preface thread a vid was linked of the split or steal game and the guy said he's gonna steal and split after the game, and guess what he split. He lied and became trustworthy and it was through this prisoners dilemma which is what this game is based around. Kind of not the same as hard claiming seer at must lynch and retracting it

Yo man was the one that said a human may lie to gauge reactions not me.

Humans lie in this game to create and judge reactions from different people.

Sorry he said "judge" same difference.

[j-rodd123]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Yes I know but ur voting me so it feels applied to me. You seem afraid to offer your own thoughts and ur just giving little +1s to Afro with no real thought. It's fine but I feel ur being apprehensive, I think ur human but ur wrong lol

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

So what was your reason for the lie then? I'd like to better understand how it was beneficial to humans to have no lynch.

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Yes I know but ur voting me so it feels applied to me. You seem afraid to offer your own thoughts and ur just giving little +1s to Afro with no real thought. It's fine but I feel ur being apprehensive, I think ur human but ur wrong lol

Afro just came into the game, I voted you during the last day phase for the same reason prior to him saying anything.

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

I'm also getting used to the game, I've never followed along one nor played one before. I'm not going to be great at this just yet. It just doesn't make sense to me for someone to flat out make it known they lied.

[j-rodd123]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

How many times have I said the reason for the lie lol.....I feel I have decent wolf reading abilities so if I can get humans powers and wolves less powers it helps us.

And I meant ur +1 agree style so far, not just to Afro . The lie could help me, a human, get powers at night. What's bad about that? There's nothing wrong with it other than it wasn't the truth and I figured a plan would be good to follow. Lynch all liars really is silly no one agreed on this, this isn't a vanilla game, there clearly is a motivation for me doing it.

Lynch me because u think I'm a wolf, and I want you to truly believe that lol. Take a step back, read what I did and why I said I did it, and see if that is wolfy or just not truthful. It is not even objectively sketchy and is not something I see wolves doing in this, it's just an easy target and i have no problem defending myself against this but I keep hearing the same points and questions which lack merit lol