TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

[Charu]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

While I'm still not agreeing with it 100%, I think it's a very good starting point and then make judgement calls. Kind of what Tokzic brought up, I really like his thought on Dark's plan.

As such, I think everyone should explain why they chose either trust or betray, just so we can have a big picture of everything because I'm pretty sure despite following a plan, you're still consciously going "Should I really go with it?" unless you're truly clueless on your partner.

[Charu]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

I understand #okigetitfojar is supposed to maximize total powers and that is a good thing. But there's no arguing that minimizing wolf powers is something that should be done as often as possible when foreseeable.

This post is what I'm referring to.

[Tps222]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

i trusted psycho. no power.

that was super bandwagony at the end of that phase. It is fishy.

sticking with my dance vote.

[dAnceguy117]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

thank you for your contribution TPS that is very thought-provoking. I really like the part where you went into detail about anything



no BDN yet, so I'll give this a shot.

-----

danceguy/runescapedude (betray/betray)
KgZ/Charu (betray/trust; KgZ reported vote-buff-giving power)
V/lito (trust/???)
YoshL/YMIA (???/betray)
TPS/psychoangel (trust/betray; no power specified)
Afro/Tokzic (betray/betray)
Guest/jrodd (betray/trust; Guest reported bodyguard power used on YMIA night 2)


haven't heard from:
BDN
Manti
Raeko
sunfan (dead)

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

I have not received a power.

[Afrobean]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

New things:

#1: Oops, I misread the PM from fojar telling me what Gradient had done. He didn't coinflip his dilemma with manti on day 1, he actually chose to trust manti. It was only the second dilemma that he actually missed and got a coinflip for. Not sure why jrodd would so aggressively assert that this mistake is "as bad" as the shit he pulled day 1. Probably just because I was pushing to lynch him completely this time, huh?

#2: I might be harsh in that post, and frequently in general, but I'm not going to apologize for it. If you're playing your first game, I'm liable to give you more leeway, but the overall quality of play through day 1 was just awful. How come no one discussed alternatives to manti's plan? How come no one discussed the ACTUAL pitfalls of his plan, the complexity which was sure to result in low actual execution rates? How come it took so much to get jrodd lynched after he was so suspicious IN ADDITION TO LYING? How come a player was able to get away with literally saying they were only SKIMMING posts? That is not OK. I mean, admitting to skimming huge posts like mine might be seen as understandable, but skimming ALL posts? We should not tolerate this level of play, not when there are far more players who WANT to play but are unable to when signup slots are filled in by people like jrodd who lies stupidly right off the bat or Gradient who needs to be replaced before day 2 starts.

#3: "What would lynching jrodd get us anyways?" YoshL, lynching jrodd would be to follow through on lynch-all-liars. It is a meta gameplay technique which discourages stupid, bad gambits beyond the scope of the single game. Killing jrodd may or may not help the humans win this game, but in the grander scheme, a consistent adherence to the policy should result in players in future games playing more smartly out of fear that lying would result in their own death regardless of alignment. If you want to know more about lynch all liars and why it is an effective meta strategy for punishing bad play overall, google the term and read everything you can on it. Notably, there's an extensive debate posted on debate.org which surely explains the whole thing better than I'd ever be able to, but if my posts are already too much for you, that'd probably fly completely over your head.

#4: Remember how I called out danceguy by name as someone worth looking closer at due to his reluctance to just lynch jrodd. This is because regardless of jrodd's alignment, the wolves would already trust that he wouldn't be lynched and would rather us have lynched a townie who COULD be lynched. Anyway, notice how he over-aggressively multi-quote replied to my big post? One of these quote-replies was in defense of manti, another player I called out as suspicious for delaying jrodd's lynch. Hmm, that's peculiar!

#5: danceguy clearly didn't understand my support of the alternative to manti's plan. He points out that wolves can choose betray secretly, and I admitted to this. However, he failed to notice my counterpoint to it: we would look at players whose partners don't get powers with greater scrutiny. So if, for example, danceguy were to get powers 4 days in a row and all of his partners NEVER got a power, that would be suspicious and we would take note of it. Thus, a smart wolf would probably rather try to avoid the spotlight he might get from secretly betraying and just choose to trust like everyone else, thus maximizing the powers pool overall for all players, and particularly for humans as well. And if a wolf chooses to secretly betray, we could discover this and use it as evidence against them. It's obviously not perfect, but neither is manti's plan, but it would be much easier for players to willingly follow. And more than anything else, I was really mad that so many just agreed to manti's plan without proper consideration of the options. Furthermore, Guest15937, there is no longer a distinction between "major" and "minor" powers, so trusting/betraying should give the same kind of powers, and your line of thinking isn't even a problem for the mass trust/trust strategy.

#6: Kind of off-topic, but since when has V been hanging out in real life with svaz. I feel like I missed something somewhere.

[Charu]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

My partner was TPS, I stuck with betray because I literally know nothing about this person lol.

i trusted psycho. no power.

that was super bandwagony at the end of that phase. It is fishy.

sticking with my dance vote.

I have not received a power.

Okay, I saw you psychoangel still in the thread when he said this and I was waiting for you to say something, but since you left...

What the fuck?

Can both of you explain what's happening here? (As obvious as it looks).

[Charu]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

And I meant say something after you said you got no power.

[yo man im awesome]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

#3: "What would lynching jrodd get us anyways?" YoshL, lynching jrodd would be to follow through on lynch-all-liars. It is a meta gameplay technique which discourages stupid, bad gambits beyond the scope of the single game. Killing jrodd may or may not help the humans win this game, but in the grander scheme, a consistent adherence to the policy should result in players in future games playing more smartly out of fear that lying would result in their own death regardless of alignment. If you want to know more about lynch all liars and why it is an effective meta strategy for punishing bad play overall, google the term and read everything you can on it. Notably, there's an extensive debate posted on debate.org which surely explains the whole thing better than I'd ever be able to, but if my posts are already too much for you, that'd probably fly completely over your head.

"stupid, bad gambits" is entirely subjective. Personally, I don't like your idea of Lynch-All-Liars. It leads to a rigid system of play, that is going to be 100% less fun than a game where are multiple play-styles being done, where yes, we can criticize each other for them, but we shouldn't necessarily require them to follow the one you like the best. That takes away from the game.

[Tokzic]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

hello my power just came back on after vanishing for 15 hours

i am currently being assaulted by an ice storm and will have spotty internet connection for the next several days

going to read the whole thread now but as long as i'm making a post GOOD WORK CHARU

[Charu]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Thanks, I think? lol

Also, we got hit pretty hard by an ice storm here in Michigan. Roads sucked because salt trucks were sort of slow. But what can they do, it was pretty much constant rain and ice yesterday.

[psychoangel691]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Okay, I saw you psychoangel still in the thread when he said this and I was waiting for you to say something, but since you left...

What the fuck?

Can both of you explain what's happening here? (As obvious as it looks).

Sorry I actually dozed off for a few (sick kids = little sleep at night)

I don't know, either TPS is lying or I didn't get my power for some reason.

[Guest15937]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

how would I know the day ended with my lynch

Lynches end the day unless otherwise specified, and if your power didn't say anything about not ending the day (which it obviously didn't), it should have been assumed that your lynch would end the day.

[dAnceguy117]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

Notably, there's an extensive debate posted on debate.org which surely explains the whole thing better than I'd ever be able to, but if my posts are already too much for you, that'd probably fly completely over your head.

lol nice attitude

Anyway, notice how he over-aggressively multi-quote replied to my big post? One of these quote-replies was in defense of manti, another player I called out as suspicious for delaying jrodd's lynch. Hmm, that's peculiar!

yes clearly I went out of my way to defend my wolf buddy after him being put under mild scrutiny somewhere within a post too large for anyone else to care about

#5: danceguy clearly didn't understand my support of the alternative to manti's plan.

ok I'll give it some more thought, but I still think there are holes.

[Afrobean]

Re: TWG CV: Christmas in the clink

"stupid, bad gambits" is entirely subjective.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Don't be stupid. Please, please, please.

If any of you are opposed to Lynch-All-Liars, read the following:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...ynch_All_Liars

http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org/wiki/Lynch_all_liars

If you still disagree, read every page in the following until you see otherwise:
http://www.google.com/search?q=lynch+all+liars

Basically: YOU ARE WRONG. Lying CAN NOT be allowed as a viable option. If someone is known to have lied, they MUST be punished for it. If you have a plan which requires you to lie, regardless of your alignment, you need to understand that lying comes with the risk of being lynched for it. If we allow lying and accept liars, we're basically handing the reigns over to the wolves. Should we accept it if someone says, "I'm not a wolf, I was just lying because it makes the game more fun!" What if someone says "I was only fake claiming to be the seer because I thought it would make the game more fun!" Jesus. Jrodd was explicitly and intentionally pushing false information. He was lying like this explicitly because he wanted to trick people into thinking he was trustworthy when he wasn't! How do you not see how selfish and crazy sketchy that is?