TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Yeah, I've been mostly regrouping these as a draft about what seemed odd to me.

Rereading myself made me realize how they're not really as incriminating as I thought it would be.

Don't let Haku stop you Shado I do want to see your replies still

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

.. Fine. Dammit, I was hoping for more but it isnt ever that easy huh

The more I read this the more I don't like the tone

Just what where you expecting me to say, Shado? Do I normally change my story around if I answer quickly? Why did you expect me to say anything more then I already had?

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd Shado's gone. Wasn't he gonna to respond to Haku?

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Well, he did mention he was going to be here for about an hour and it's been around 1 hour from that post.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Fair enough

Hopefully we get a good post on the 'morrow

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

What about you Haku any thoughts on the most recent Shado posts?

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

I normally read ShadoWolfe as town when he's doing individualistic related plays.
When he's more of a team player, he tends to be wolf.

I'm kind of town leaning him in this situation.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Him wanting to reaction test you over a question is something I would town lean him for.

He tends to get mislynched because players are normally assuming he would want to be a team player as town and it's rarely the case.
He really prefers to say he really thinks and do what he thinks is the best for his team.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Basically, he went ham on D0 EoD and started leading what looks like a parade of mislynches now.

Okay, first, this is a lost wolf game, so it's literally impossible to intentionally mislynch, especially D0. He went ham D0 and made a lot of pushes on a lot of people, but I don't think he actually *led* the T-Force lynch. T-Force just basically gave up trying to defend himself after pressure built, and his tone reflects that in retrospect. As for the mislynch itself, dAnce was the first vote of the wagon, then you, then choof, then charu, then AA, then MML, then Aryxi.

Second, and most importantly, AA wasn't even on the Pazzaz wagon. dAnce started that one too. AA was on storn for the entire second half of D1, and unvoted well before EoD without ever placing a vote.

I'd agree if you said he led "town" most of the phases because he was active and making pushes, but he didn't lead those lynches. He wasn't even on one of them, but both you and MML were on both.

TlNR: this point doesn't hold up because lost wolf game in d0, and because he didn't lead either wagon. It's even worse because this entire time you've both been blaming him for leading two mislynches that you were a part of, but he didn't lead either and wasn't even on one.

I do have a pile of quotes I can point out to and I do understand that D0 happened the way it did because we don't know the information that we know now.

Bold and underlined that for comparison to later boldened and underlined contradiction.

The point is that he's been really trying to create an agenda and force the game in a particular way.

Debunked above, see first point. The worst you could say he's done with an "agenda" was be a part of T-Force's lynch, which you're all guilty of because T-Force quit.

He took the time to write up everyone's reads and most of them have been MML/Storn/T-Force which simply shouldn't be even close of the reality of this game.

He somehow got fairly heavily sheeped and I think this fits with what you were talking about with "rushing the game" back in your Choof / MML interactions.

I didn't see him writing up everyone's reads, must've missed that. Either way, if they included T-Force then that must have been in D0 and you can see point 1 for why that's really weak reasoning.
Also, who's "you" referring to here?

I believe if there's a deep wolf in this game, it has to be him. The trend continues subtlely and he's like discarding objective thinking with false promises.

e.g: T-Force mentions that R.E. Aryxi would have been a much better lynch than him and AA basically discard R.E. Aryxi later on. (well, this is laughable now because of Aryxi's flip, but still.)

What I'm saying here is that I feel like he's been trying to move the game in a certain direction the entire time up to this point.

When did he discard objective thinking with false promises? Go on, I'd like to see one actual example (the one you listed doesn't include a false promise or even hint at AA "discarding objectivity") of this because it's vague and seems like an exaggeration that you're trying to sell..

Look, you're giving him godlike credit for directing the game in a bad direction and leading lynches he didn't lead. Even in a regular wolfgame, this would be a stretch, but in a lost wolf game I can't even imagine who could do a quarter of the shit you're attributing to him.

Sorry MML, I'll find the rain of quotes after the explanations. I feel like it's easier to read that way.

AA also pushed me after I tried to do a push D0 against danceguy out of toneread which ended up being a failure from lacking content.

AA's main argument had to do with semantics about word usage from his point of view only to back off over himself not reading properly what I've written in the first place.

That just made me go wtf

I've never seen AA push me for this ever before and then he went back on being assertive and requesting help to pressure others and continue the "agenda meta" if I were to name that something.

I think this is literally AA trying to signal me that he's a wolf believing I could be wolf myself.

The grand majority of the rest of his game is a proofread party that's borderline unattackable.

These points are really bad. You admitted that you thought this was all incriminating, but here you say that his game is so well done that it's borderline unattackable.
That aside, though, if you thought he was a wolf trying to signal you, why didn't you bring it up when it happened? Also, how do you believe he had an agenda to lead town in a negative direction while also remaining unattackable? When one reaches too far in their logic for a push(like yours right now), it's a noticeable sign that they're more concerned with the end result (the mislynch) than the process. If he knew as much as you claim he did and was actively trying to make a mislynch occur, there would've been reaches in logic. Those would've been caught. Instead, like you yourself have said, he's just been towny all game.

And for the last time, you're referring to him in D0 as if he were a wolf who knew all his teammates. This is a lost wolf game, that is literally impossible.

The moment I started questioning him about the pacing of the game and basic ideas like game mechanics he looked like he got angry and I think it has to do with the idea that I pushed him outside of his comfort zone.

This was right after you made that bad logic post, right? I read it like he got frustrated because what you were asking was obvious from the OP and he had to explain it in 16 different ways. How did you push him outside his comfort zone? Please explain.

He also tried to do a Seer cover which was a really strange action by itself. It's like I was watching him slowly doing all the potential hat tricks as if he wanted to be so town that calling him out would be insulting.

Basically, I really disliked his game "behind the scene" in terms of tone all along.

Here it is again.. You're saying you watched him slowly do everything townily, as if he wanted to be so town that calling him out would be insulting, and then you're saying that that's a bad thing and that you really disliked it all along. If you thought he was a wolf all along, why didn't you push him on it? MML did, and would've appreciated the support.
I think you were scared you'd use bad logic like this and expose yourself, and knew he'd catch you.

I guess I should start finding quotes now.

I thought you already had a pile of them? You quoted two posts of his after this, and both of them were really irrelevant points. What's up, Haku? Where's the pile of quotes and the rain of posts you found shady?

I think he sort of did. Here's why;




danceguy has been pretty much the most positive player in this entire game and seeing AA go like "towns has motivation to solve" made me go "really?"

It feels like he wanted to discard me continuing to push danceguy.



He's right btw, but I do think that gives us an idea over his mindset.

Lost wolf game, D0, invalid point. dAnceguy most positive? lol like I said in my earlier post, your logic here WAS backwards, and he wasn't the only person to call you out on it. Town does have motivation to solve, because solving is the only way town every wins any game. Wolves don't. Their only motivation is to make it look like they're solving, making them more apathetic (in most cases). See why what you said was backwards now?

That's before the awkward push where he backed off from me.

Just in case you wanted an example of softing.

The part you boldened is obviously referring to your "serious wolf, shitpost town" meta that has been so prevalent. It seems fairly obvious to me he means that he doesn't want to encourage you to shitpost as town out of fear of being scumread for being serious.

Look, I haven't even told you how laughably bad dadcop2/DFR looks next to your slot.
I just wanted to give you an idea of how I've been seeing things.
I wanted to show you that I tried to do something.
If it's bad, just tell me why.

AA has been frustrating to properly read for me all game and I just wanted to see how you approach all of this.

I'm just happy that I can actually sit down and have a chance to discuss this phase after how poorly present I was in D1.
In sign ups, I actually volunteered to be a replacement because I wasn't certain that I'd be able to be here the entire game.
I assumed I would have died like D0 for being a meme with puzzles, but I ended up caring. Basically, life is starting to get in my way, but I'm trying to find time anyway.

I have time now. Going to find your post.

And lastly, this post. ^
This is nice and all, but it kind of reads as though you're backing off your "push" as soon as I dismissed it, and brushing it off as "just wanting to show me that you've tried to do something", even though you later said that you thought your push was incriminating when you posted it.

Also, why go to all that work to show me that you've tried to do something? You made a push, that should be because you think I'm scummy, not because you want to prove to me that you're town because you're doing work...
What kind of intention is that?

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Last game.

Oh, I haven't read it yet.
I'm going to need to because I hear it's the only source of info on dadcop's meta, but haven't had the time to read TWG outside of this game.

I got the idea from the first game I read where I think sunfan? used that exact tactic to ask another player a question (I think maybe dAnce?) with a time limit. It ended up not working there, either, but I hoped it might lead to something here.

The more I read this the more I don't like the tone

Just what where you expecting me to say, Shado? Do I normally change my story around if I answer quickly? Why did you expect me to say anything more then I already had?

Eh, I was hoping you'd try to brush it off or explain it offhandedly without giving you time to go back and see what your first response was. I guess your memory didn't need time to recall your reasoning. Didn't work, but it was worth a shot.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Also, who's "you" referring to here?

MML, back to his Choof / MML interaction.

It's basically the concept of giving quick reads even if they're wrong vs taking the time to do everything right and being heavily objective.

I've been in favor of trying to give reads no matter how bad they are. The idea was to extend of these poor ideas and try to see if there's something you can get out of it.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

I normally read ShadoWolfe as town when he's doing individualistic related plays.
When he's more of a team player, he tends to be wolf.

I'm kind of town leaning him in this situation.

wot?

I am a team player, because this game is unwinnable if town doesn't play as a team. I'm not individualistic ever here, because that'd imply I'd prioritize myself. On the contrary, I'm very utilitarian when it comes to TWG. If I'm VT and there's a PR that needs cover, I'll do as much as I possibly can to provide that cover, even if it means dying. That's why I got pissed when you exposed storn. This game is very utilitarian in the value it places on power roles and so on, and there isn't a point in being an individualistic town.

I do agree with the saying what I think and doing what I feel is best, though, but that's not individualistic. It's just independent.

More importantly:
I tend to be a wolf when I'm being a team player? The only wolf game I've ever played on FFR was the cancelled Survivor Valais, where I was very much the opposite of a team player. I refused to cooperate with the OP town strat, I argued against everything that was good for town, and I was generally just very much not a team player. Even if I was, though, you couldn't say I "tend" to be anything off of one game.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

MML, back to his Choof / MML interaction.

It's basically the concept of giving quick reads even if they're wrong vs taking the time to do everything right and being heavily objective.

I've been in favor of trying to give reads no matter how bad they are. The idea was to extend of these poor ideas and try to see if there's something you can get out of it.

..Thanks.

There's a lot more questions in that post for you to answer, Haku.
The one you chose was the least important of them all.

Any time you see a question mark in that post, it's a question I want answered.

I took the time to address your questions, please return the courtesy. You can do it in the morning if you like, but don't ignore them.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Well, I'll give you the short answer now.

I knew I posted garbage in the first place, I was mostly trying to reaction test you more than anything because you're not AA himself.

I believe you're town at this point.

I can go answer these for your entertainment I guess.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

wot?

I am a team player, because this game is unwinnable if town doesn't play as a team. I'm not individualistic ever here, because that'd imply I'd prioritize myself. On the contrary, I'm very utilitarian when it comes to TWG. If I'm VT and there's a PR that needs cover, I'll do as much as I possibly can to provide that cover, even if it means dying. That's why I got pissed when you exposed storn. This game is very utilitarian in the value it places on power roles and so on, and there isn't a point in being an individualistic town.

I do agree with the saying what I think and doing what I feel is best, though, but that's not individualistic. It's just independent.

More importantly:
I tend to be a wolf when I'm being a team player? The only wolf game I've ever played on FFR was the cancelled Survivor Valais, where I was very much the opposite of a team player. I refused to cooperate with the OP town strat, I argued against everything that was good for town, and I was generally just very much not a team player. Even if I was, though, you couldn't say I "tend" to be anything off of one game.

^ Sounds about right/accurate. Independant is a much better word than what I used.