TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Well, I'll try to move on to not beat a dead horse, but this "push" wasn't going to get anyone in danger of getting lynched.

It's literally on the same level as a journal entry with me talking about myself about a certain topic.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

in b4 "you clearly wanted to get ShadoWolfe lynched by explaining to us why you think he's town".

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

I guess I won't do this again or even puzzles in future games. That make things way too confusing for everyone.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

I have 17 hours to convince everyone that I made the biggest derp in terms of misunderstanding as a town in the entirety of my games.

fml

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Why would I do all of this as a wolf ?

An excellent question but grounded in the wrong assumption, but we'll get back to that.

reasons to do this sort of thing normally fall in because wolf doesn't like the direction the game is going. Now in this game wolves don't know for sure who their partners are, so that becomes alot more WIFOM for your money real fast. I guess a wolf Haku figured they had to make an impression or be scumread for being to inactive? Game has basically devolved to lynching the skirters if we're being honest.

In this regard you get more out of the push if you're town then wolf, but there isn't just the push: you intentionally left yourself an out. When the man making the claims doesn't fully believe his claims that strikes me as odd. If you're going to push, then push, and if you're going to rescind the attack at least say "fair enough" and work with your new knowledge in the future.

But you admitted to me that you wanted to give a push and quickly left yourself some error room to dodge around in, meaning you knew it could easily be refuted and had no intention of taking the fight a step past that.

So the question there is, why leave yourself a backdoor as town?

If you're town then let the purity of your push ring throughout the land
Trying to clean yourself of any wrongdoing before the serious pushback and hoping people handwave it doesn't benefit you as town, it's only good to you if you're a wolf who wants to be active but doesn't want to answer for himself.

Which brings me back to your false assumption, that I am reading you scum for the push. The push was fine in concept but that isn't the fishy part of the whole ordeal. But deep down you knew that before I replied, right? What's fishy is that you're going to push on someone without wanting the responsibility of pushing

And my God we haven't even brought in the fact that you picked Shado. There's so much tinfoil to be found here.

Let's start with the fact that up until this point you where fine with AA and I can't recall a single time that you seriously questioned that he was playing town. When I pushed AA and scumread him you didn't join in either, so why pick Shado to go after? You could have picked DFR who is by far more gray and uncertain then Shado must be for you at this point (for everyone, really). Or how about me? You've said countless times that I'm throwing you off this game. Why not do this to me?

As town going after someone who you thought was town when there is an objectionable better push to make doesn't benefit you, but pushing someone who might get another person on his ass at any other second would defiantly benefit a wolf.

For better or worse I am known for jumping on my own wagon and being a headstrong bitch about it. Did you think it really escaped me that you picked the top scum of the guy most likely to jump the gun in this scenario? Actually let's look at it this way: If I go back, is you deciding that maybe your push on Shado isn't correct and flawed followed by me literally saying to DFR that I was concerned you didn't believe your push+was trying to bait me/force a wagon on Shado? I bet you don't really need to have a good case if you're expecting Mr Larski to jump in and do all the work for you, now do ya?

What am I even trying to push here ?

It does kind of fall about before you get going, doesn't it.

Like I said, right after I show I ain't jumping headlong onto that drama.

I have 17 hours to convince everyone that I made the biggest derp in terms of misunderstanding as a town in the entirety of my games.

fml

Better get on it then.

Start by conceiving me that the "Baiting Lar to act" theory is wrong.

Then explain why every one of your original points that Shado answered at the start of all this are wrong from your point of view.

Follow by your two (and only two. None of this A/B this-n-that nonsense) scumreads and all the evidence you can think of on why it's those 2 and not the others.

If you find yourself typing "idk but" anywhere in that post F5 and start writing it again because I don't want to hear lukewarm FMPOVs especially for that last one.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

If you're town Haku then you doing all of that will surely show me it. Only a wolf benefits from dragging this out (so we don't quickly find his partner) but a town would want to answer me quickly and concisely.

Don't give up and be a bitch about it, help solve the game.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

An excellent question but grounded in the wrong assumption, but we'll get back to that.

reasons to do this sort of thing normally fall in because wolf doesn't like the direction the game is going. Now in this game wolves don't know for sure who their partners are, so that becomes alot more WIFOM for your money real fast. I guess a wolf Haku figured they had to make an impression or be scumread for being to inactive? Game has basically devolved to lynching the skirters if we're being honest.

I believe I was completely fine compared to DFR/dadcop2 up to this point. I had no reason to do such a high risk low reward strategy.

In this regard you get more out of the push if you're town then wolf, but there isn't just the push: you intentionally left yourself an out. When the man making the claims doesn't fully believe his claims that strikes me as odd. If you're going to push, then push, and if you're going to rescind the attack at least say "fair enough" and work with your new knowledge in the future.

But you admitted to me that you wanted to give a push and quickly left yourself some error room to dodge around in, meaning you knew it could easily be refuted and had no intention of taking the fight a step past that.

So the question there is, why leave yourself a backdoor as town?

If you're town then let the purity of your push ring throughout the land
Trying to clean yourself of any wrongdoing before the serious pushback and hoping people handwave it doesn't benefit you as town, it's only good to you if you're a wolf who wants to be active but doesn't want to answer for himself.

For my own sanity, this is the intention:

I had left overs reads about AA before ShadoWolfe replaced him and I wanted to talk about them.
I ended up town reading ShadoWolfe after rereading my own posts and realizing how much I don't make sense.
The stupid part is that I went on anyway and presented it to him because I wanted to see how he would react to it.
The awkwardness after is the result of this.

Which brings me back to your false assumption, that I am reading you scum for the push. The push was fine in concept but that isn't the fishy part of the whole ordeal. But deep down you knew that before I replied, right? What's fishy is that you're going to push on someone without wanting the responsibility of pushing

And my God we haven't even brought in the fact that you picked Shado. There's so much tinfoil to be found here.

Question for my own sanity: What's a push from your point of view and how does what I typed qualify as "fine in concept" ?

Let's start with the fact that up until this point you where fine with AA and I can't recall a single time that you seriously questioned that he was playing town. When I pushed AA and scumread him you didn't join in either, so why pick Shado to go after? You could have picked DFR who is by far more gray and uncertain then Shado must be for you at this point (for everyone, really). Or how about me? You've said countless times that I'm throwing you off this game. Why not do this to me?

I'm the only player IN THE ENTIRE GAME who had AA and danceguy as scums D0 from tone read. I spent a good chunk of my game having interactions with AA about how I didn't like how he was playing. This is probably around 33% of my posts in D0/D1.

As town going after someone who you thought was town when there is an objectionable better push to make doesn't benefit you, but pushing someone who might get another person on his ass at any other second would defiantly benefit a wolf.

I'm calling this revisiting players.

For better or worse I am known for jumping on my own wagon and being a headstrong bitch about it. Did you think it really escaped me that you picked the top scum of the guy most likely to jump the gun in this scenario? Actually let's look at it this way: If I go back, is you deciding that maybe your push on Shado isn't correct and flawed followed by me literally saying to DFR that I was concerned you didn't believe your push+was trying to bait me/force a wagon on Shado? I bet you don't really need to have a good case if you're expecting Mr Larski to jump in and do all the work for you, now do ya?


It does kind of fall about before you get going, doesn't it.

Like I said, right after I show I ain't jumping headlong onto that drama.



Better get on it then.

Start by conceiving me that the "Baiting Lar to act" theory is wrong.

Then explain why every one of your original points that Shado answered at the start of all this are wrong from your point of view.

Follow by your two (and only two. None of this A/B this-n-that nonsense) scumreads and all the evidence you can think of on why it's those 2 and not the others.

If you find yourself typing "idk but" anywhere in that post F5 and start writing it again because I don't want to hear lukewarm FMPOVs especially for that last one.

You had no reason to get baited into that or responsibilities to do anything about my posts.
I have 2 players I want to lynch this phase, it's DFR and dadcop2. That will most likely not change.
I said everything I had to say about ShadoWolfe and I honestly haven't found any serious reasons to believe that you're wolf in the entire thread after rereading the entire thing multiple times. You do have up and lows, but you've been consistent all the way and constantly searched for answers.

I obviously know that I'm town and this only leaves 2 suspects to me; DFR and dadcop2.

This was supposed to be easy from this point if I didn't fuck up like I did.

So yeah, I'm tilted. Sorry if I missed an important point.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

You've said countless times that I'm throwing you off this game. Why not do this to me?

The main thing that was throwing me off about you had to do with principles around your interaction with Choof about how to approach the game. I shared similar beliefs as Choof, but in terms of reading you as scum, that didn't mean anything.

The rest of your game makes a lot more sense and I can understand where you're going in general.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Just finished reading up on what's happened since I left. Won't be here too long since I'm phoneposting from bed.

MML that list of what Haku has to do to change your mind is a little excessive, no? I feel like most people in any alignment would rather give up than do all that that work, and that isn't them being a "bitch about it", it's just an unrealistic demand.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Well, I'll try to move on to not beat a dead horse, but this "push" wasn't going to get anyone in danger of getting lynched.

It's literally on the same level as a journal entry with me talking about myself about a certain topic.

Both dadcop and MML kept their votes on me through EoD last phase, and only changed their votes reluctantly.
There was definitely a danger of a push leading to mislynch.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Both dadcop and MML kept their votes on me through EoD last phase, and only changed their votes reluctantly.
There was definitely a danger of a push leading to mislynch.

Huh what- I thought the main wagons were dadcop2/danceguy.

Are they scum reading you for attitude?

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Well, I went into unknown territory on a mylo to push about trying to find a way to make myself look town while explaining why I changed my mind about AA not being a wolf, but town because I thought it was a fun idea.

Now I have to explain my alignment based on this action.

I honestly have no idea what to do about this outside of telling you that this is really just as stupid as what it looks like.

Oh come on, you can't seriously be saying your push was to make you look town while explaining why you think I'm also town. It doesn't make sense to push me if you were so convinced I was town, and it doesn't make sense that you'd be so concerned about "making myself look town" if you were actually town.

Yeah. If you're going to point out what ShadoWolfe pointed out about contradictions, I really have nothing else I can tell you outside of me not being attentive to my own posts.

Not being attentive shouldn't lead to blatant contradictions about things like the reason behind an action. Like, the string of explanations you made still doesn't make sense to me, even when I try to look at it from a town Haku perspective.

fmpov, this wasn't supposed to be alignment indicative because of how it doesn't really make sense as both alignment.

It wasn't supposed to be alignment indicative because it doesn't make sense as either alignment, so you did it anyways?
You're right, that really doesn't make sense.

[ShadoWolfe]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Huh what- I thought the main wagons were dadcop2/danceguy.

Are they scum reading you for attitude?

MML's been scumreading my slot all game. His spat with AA D0/D1 shaped his reads on me since I replaced, and is only starting to change this phase. He's still a question mark for me, but that's not up for discussion this phase.

Dadcop2 was scumreading me for my personality last phase, saying I was something along the lines of "obnoxious, pretentious, conceited, and condescending".

They kept their votes until about 10m from EoD.

See why a push on me could've really taken off if you had done it right? Would've also made you look like you were putting in more work than any bullshit push you could've made on DFR.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

Oh come on, you can't seriously be saying your push was to make you look town while explaining why you think I'm also town. It doesn't make sense to push me if you were so convinced I was town, and it doesn't make sense that you'd be so concerned about "making myself look town" if you were actually town.

I skimmed most of yesterday's EoD and assumed the main wagons were danceguy/dadcop2 only. It's actually a surprise to me that you were a potential lynch candidate. The timing of these posts goes around when I was receiving a call from my friends and didn't pay as much attention to the thread. I ended up leaving and miss this EoD. I expected to get replaced out, but apparently I wasn't absent long enough to justify a replacement.

It's so coincidentally unlikely that it makes me feel bad for not realizing it sooner. I wasn't really paying attention as much as I should have about others pushing you.

dadcop2's push on you makes me facepalm btw, but I feel like I did similar things as him in my previous games where I misread you. I hope he actually put some work eventually.

See why a push on me could've really taken off if you had done it right? Would've also made you look like you were putting in more work than any bullshit push you could've made on DFR.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize why MML was talking about me trying to bait.

^
@ MML "Start by conceiving me that the "Baiting Lar to act" theory is wrong."

That's where I am for this one.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG CLXI - Egregious Miscalculations GAME THREAD

@ MML : Then explain why every one of your original points that Shado answered at the start of all this are wrong from your point of view.

Is there a difference between a triggered town AA and a triggered wolf AA?

AA can be triggered as both town and wolf (he posted about it). I do not believe there is a difference here. This is probably the only question that I cannot fully counterargue against because I'm not AA.

Basically, he went ham on D0 EoD and started leading what looks like a parade of mislynches now.

You don't have to be AA to do this.

I do have a pile of quotes I can point out to and I do understand that D0 happened the way it did because we don't know the information that we know now.

The point is that he's been really trying to create an agenda and force the game in a particular way.

You can do this for towny reasons.

He took the time to write up everyone's reads and most of them have been MML/Storn/T-Force which simply shouldn't be even close of the reality of this game.

No one really had anything strong at this point so, it makes sense that players would want to try to find a common ground about who to lynch.

He somehow got fairly heavily sheeped and I think this fits with what you were talking about with "rushing the game" back in your Choof / MML interactions.

That doesn't make him wolfy. That just makes him "sheeped".

I believe if there's a deep wolf in this game, it has to be him. The trend continues subtlely and he's like discarding objective thinking with false promises.

Basically, I'm trying to justify reasons about why he did certain actions, but that doesn't mean that I knew his intentions properly.

e.g: T-Force mentions that R.E. Aryxi would have been a much better lynch than him and AA basically discard R.E. Aryxi later on. (well, this is laughable now because of Aryxi's flip, but still.)

I already explained why this is ok in my 2nd bigger post where I say why it's wrong.

What I'm saying here is that I feel like he's been trying to move the game in a certain direction the entire time up to this point.

..which can be done for towny reasons as well.

Sorry MML, I'll find the rain of quotes after the explanations. I feel like it's easier to read that way.

I never bothered with this because it would take me forever and wasn't worth the time investment.

AA also pushed me after I tried to do a push D0 against danceguy out of toneread which ended up being a failure from lacking content.

AA's main argument had to do with semantics about word usage from his point of view only to back off over himself not reading properly what I've written in the first place.

That just made me go wtf

I've never seen AA push me for this ever before and then he went back on being assertive and requesting help to pressure others and continue the "agenda meta" if I were to name that something.

I think this is literally AA trying to signal me that he's a wolf believing I could be wolf myself.

..or this is AA pushing Haku because pushing Haku sounds like a reasonable idea D0.

The grand majority of the rest of his game is a proofread party that's borderline unattackable.

Translation: The rest of his game is too towny to be read as scum for me.

The moment I started questioning him about the pacing of the game and basic ideas like game mechanics he looked like he got angry and I think it has to do with the idea that I pushed him outside of his comfort zone.

I actually mind meld with him when I tried to explain to dadcop2 why he should try arguing with players instead of posting commentary. I can only imagine him facepalming about me asking me about mechanics.

He also tried to do a Seer cover which was a really strange action by itself. It's like I was watching him slowly doing all the potential hat tricks as if he wanted to be so town that calling him out would be insulting.

Basically, I really disliked his game "behind the scene" in terms of tone all along.

I guess I should start finding quotes now.

Okay, that Seer cover thing never really went anywhere as Storn just told AA that it wasn't happening. There's not much reason to proceed about this reasoning because we're talking about an action that never landed to results.

I'm not really well placed to say that what AA did was weird after that "town push" on ShadoWolfe.

Gotta accept the lesson of humility here.