TWG XXII - Vampire Melee - GAME OVER

[talisman]

To summarize: it is qreepy who first asks what's in the body, alain who willingly obliges him, blah who suggests that everyone post theirs without the code, and then jurs who posts hers.

[Afrobean]

I eventually posted a screenshot of mine too.

Without the important stuff, of course.

EDIT: in fact, here it is: http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/4752/pm5cr.png

[talisman]

Ok this is just my initial thinking: blah

Based both on his poorly justified vote for me yesterday and how/when it was placed. It came at a time when there were two candidates and the classic wolf play in that situation is to not look like a bandwagon jumper and to try to make a semi-legitimate vote on someone besides the two candidates.

Also largely based on his response to the whole pm thing and his suggestion and push for everyone who got a pm to post it, minus the codes. A wolf would know that the pm wasn't from a wolf and would want to find out as much about it as possible. For this same reason I'm also extremely leery of alain, who, while I can imagine as just being overly eager, DID help to crack the code prematurely and was the first one to post his pm.

Hans is also up there... if Q was human, as I suspect was probably the case, then his vote for him on basically no evidence as well as the way he got qreepy to vote for Q is somewhat condemning.

I know I voted for tass yesterday and was fairly confident about it, but that convo with chardish makes him seem alot more human than I thought he was yesterday. But then again I guess it's not impossible he had chardish fooled as well. Plus there's the fact that he had basically no early help yesterday... I dunno second thoughts confuse me.

[alainbryden]

I know no one will ever bother reading that entire chat room conversation, which is a pitty because I'm sure there's lots in there to indicate that I'm green. Anticipating laziness from everyone, I will try to defend myself as I did in chat right now. Why, because of all this confusing crap no one knows what's going on, I was asleep so it's convenient to drop blame on me, and no one has my back right now.

The way you're all putting it on is as though I was trying to fuck up some wonderful plan that would have won for the humans. First, a few reasons why this second preposition is false.
1) If there was a clear way to fuck up the messages, it would have been to bare all in public and say something like "this must be bullshit guys" which is precisely what I didn't do.
2) This is flawed because chardish told way to many people about "his role" which is likely true if he was killed, (only alternative being that he was a wolf and made the setup for an overall wolf win), so the message can't even be meaningful because more than Talisman new this "secret information"
3) Providing that chardish's plan was clearly executed, it would have resulted in a big hype and no information at all, since there's way of knowing through what was executed who is more trust worthy, and it would be naive for anyone to make any conclusions as a direct consequence of what chardish wanted us to think.

All of this is overwhelming evidence for why even if I had attempted to, I wouldn't have messed anything up, and it only would have made me look like a wolf.

Now the following is precisely evidence for how I didn't attempt to screw anything up. Most of it can be seen directly in what I said in other conversations that were posted, but here's a little more:
1) All I did was tried to peice together enough info to try and figure out if it was a fake thing or to be trusted. That wouldn't screw anything up under normal interpretation of the letter. Once we discovered that the message had something to do with "who killed me" I'm the one that pressed that we don't find out the name.
2) I told one person that I thought the messages were chardish. (Eva) Upon which she fully agreed with me. Everyone else already knew, or even told me thinking I was too dumb to figure it out. It was obvious, that's no reason to think I'm a wolf. I didn't know any better than any of the other people who got the message.
3) I partially disobeyed it because it looked like a big setup, but I by no means pushed to outright disobey the letter. I knew, and expressed, that it was critical not to reveal the message, in case it was true, but not to trust it without substantial understanding of its purpose and credibility, incase it was false.
4) I just solved "Important information ... Who Killed me" from the message, with the full participation of Eva and Fish. After that I planned to and did stop, completely. Because that's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know what the message was about, but not who it was about.


This following little bit describes exactly what I thought was going on with the pm's 8 people have this log:
NEIGH006 (11:39:07 PM): I personally thought the triggers would tell us who was being set up
NEIGH006 (11:39:13 PM): if they were setting up wolves
NEIGH006 (11:39:21 PM): people would be excluded from the circle
NEIGH006 (11:39:26 PM): and this would mean that it was a setup
NEIGH006 (11:39:43 PM): because only a wolf could make an assumption about who the three wolves are and set them up correspondingly
NEIGH006 (11:40:55 PM): Everyone pushed to find the chain
insanelikeafish (11:41:03 PM): yes they did
NEIGH006 (11:41:07 PM): It would have happened without my contribution
insanelikeafish (11:41:11 PM): but everyone also thought that was unimportant at the time
NEIGH006 (11:41:16 PM): [b]why am I being dicked into being shown as the person who started it.
This is Afrobean (11:41:29 PM): you were
This is Afrobean (11:41:34 PM): weren't you?
...
NEIGH006 (11:42:28 PM): But I didn't start it!
...
NEIGH006 (11:42:41 PM): I consulted with you guys and asked if you thought we should try to figure out the chain
insanelikeafish (11:42:49 PM): i remember
This is Afrobean (11:42:54 PM): so... all three of you started it
insanelikeafish (11:42:58 PM): and i was like "i'll give the last letter"
This is Afrobean (11:43:01 PM): but you were the one that said it was chardish
//I already described why this is false, my reasoning was the same in the thread.
...
NEIGH006 (11:43:45 PM): and someone else told me it screams chardish
xtrialanderror x (11:43:47 PM): i was like
insanelikeafish (11:43:47 PM): talis told me before //(ie others new without me)
NEIGH006 (11:43:49 PM): and I said yes, I thought so too
...
NEIGH006 (11:44:21 PM): LD once made a thread saying To Chardish: Stop capitalizing my name //A piece of my reasoning.
NEIGH006 (11:44:32 PM): and chardish went on about how it's gramatically correct
This is Afrobean (11:44:34 PM): I must've missed that one
This is Afrobean (11:44:41 PM): it oculd have been someone framing chard then
This is Afrobean (11:44:44 PM): didn't you think of that?
xtrialanderror x (11:44:48 PM): wtf
xtrialanderror x (11:44:49 PM): shut up
NEIGH006 (11:44:53 PM): frankly no
This is Afrobean (11:44:55 PM): haha
xtrialanderror x (11:44:56 PM): chardish admitted he madeit
...
This is Afrobean (11:47:19 PM): you didn't figure it out right away
NEIGH006 (11:47:21 PM): maybe if you're dim
NEIGH006 (11:47:29 PM): I figured out it was chardish right away
This is Afrobean (11:47:29 PM): you thought it was a fake
NEIGH006 (11:47:42 PM): and I knew it was supposed to scatter a message among several people
NEIGH006 (11:47:54 PM): and I knew that one "trusted" person was going to start it at some critical moment
NEIGH006 (11:48:02 PM): and the whole thing would recursively collapse
NEIGH006 (11:48:07 PM): I just didn't know for what purpose
NEIGH006 (11:48:15 PM): and why the fuck shouldn't it be fake afrobean
NEIGH006 (11:48:25 PM): who in their right mind trusts "do this and you win I promise"
NEIGH006 (11:48:31 PM): from anonymous
NEIGH006 (11:48:33 PM): really
stressreliefball (11:48:39 PM): you WERE the first person to post their pm, though
NEIGH006 (11:49:27 PM): after everyone begged me
NEIGH006 (11:49:39 PM): adn then I only showed the important stuff to other people with pm's
NEIGH006 (11:49:42 PM): and discussed it with them



If you read all of the first section, and the bolded points of the conversation, if not all of it, then it's bleeding clear what my intentions were and that this is not reason to think I'm a wolf. You are supposed to be critical of information. And Careful. I was both.

[JurseyRider734]

You took out a lot of it. Why?

Edit: Here's full log. I don't know why he left some out...

NEIGH006 (10:39:15 PM): I personally thought the triggers would tell us who was being set up
NEIGH006 (10:39:21 PM): if they were setting up wolves
NEIGH006 (10:39:29 PM): people would be excluded from the circle
NEIGH006 (10:39:34 PM): and this would mean that it was a setup
NEIGH006 (10:39:52 PM): because only a wolf could make an assumption about who the three wolves are and set them up correspondingly
NEIGH006 (10:41:04 PM): Everyone pushed to find the chain
insanelikeafish (10:41:11 PM): yes they did
NEIGH006 (10:41:15 PM): It would have happened without my contribution
insanelikeafish (10:41:20 PM): but everyone also thought that was unimportant at the time
NEIGH006 (10:41:24 PM): why am I being dicked into being shown as the person who started it
This is Afrobean (10:41:37 PM): you were
This is Afrobean (10:41:42 PM): weren't you?
insanelikeafish (10:41:43 PM): people who contributed to the chain are inimportant
insanelikeafish (10:41:44 PM): because
insanelikeafish (10:41:53 PM): everyone thought it was benign to share that info
insanelikeafish (10:42:03 PM): you jurs and i were the only ones that broke the RULE
This is Afrobean (10:42:36 PM): I just realized something
NEIGH006 (10:42:36 PM): But I didn't start it!
This is Afrobean (10:42:43 PM): didn't TWG lose the chat for a while
This is Afrobean (10:42:45 PM): why was that?
NEIGH006 (10:42:50 PM): I consulted with you guys and asked if you thought we should try to figure out the chain
insanelikeafish (10:42:57 PM): i remember
This is Afrobean (10:43:02 PM): so... all three of you started it
insanelikeafish (10:43:06 PM): and i was like "i'll give the last letter"
This is Afrobean (10:43:09 PM): but you were the one that said it was chardish
NEIGH006 (10:43:15 PM): I know
NEIGH006 (10:43:17 PM): I just guessed
NEIGH006 (10:43:20 PM): but it was obvious
xtrialanderror x (10:43:22 PM): no way
This is Afrobean (10:43:22 PM): that's what did it reallyu
xtrialanderror x (10:43:25 PM): you didnt guess
xtrialanderror x (10:43:27 PM): you were like
This is Afrobean (10:43:29 PM): It was not obviouis
This is Afrobean (10:43:32 PM): I thought it was talisman
NEIGH006 (10:43:37 PM): Fish told me before I told him
xtrialanderror x (10:43:38 PM): "he used the same email address hider like in infiltration"
NEIGH006 (10:43:41 PM): and I told eva
NEIGH006 (10:43:45 PM): and she said "of course"
This is Afrobean (10:43:48 PM): waht email adresss?
xtrialanderror x (10:43:53 PM): "and he capitalized the L in lightdarknesss and he's the only one who does that"
NEIGH006 (10:43:53 PM): and someone else told me it screams chardish
xtrialanderror x (10:43:55 PM): i was like
insanelikeafish (10:43:56 PM): talis told me before
NEIGH006 (10:43:58 PM): and I said yes, I thought so too
xtrialanderror x (10:43:59 PM): "ohhh right"
This is Afrobean (10:44:08 PM): LD doesn't even do that, does he?
xtrialanderror x (10:44:27 PM): i thought it was tass or something before you told me
NEIGH006 (10:44:29 PM): LD once made a thread saying To Chardish: Stop capitalizing my name
This is Afrobean (10:44:38 PM): haha
xtrialanderror x (10:44:38 PM): i was just going to follow what it said
NEIGH006 (10:44:41 PM): and chardish went on about how it's gramatically correct
This is Afrobean (10:44:42 PM): I must've missed that one
This is Afrobean (10:44:49 PM): it oculd have been someone framing chard then
This is Afrobean (10:44:53 PM): didn't you think of that?
xtrialanderror x (10:44:56 PM): wtf
xtrialanderror x (10:44:57 PM): shut up
NEIGH006 (10:45:01 PM): frankly no
This is Afrobean (10:45:03 PM): haha
xtrialanderror x (10:45:04 PM): chardish admitted he madeit
NEIGH006 (10:45:07 PM): because I deduced it was chardish
This is Afrobean (10:45:10 PM): it seems to scream frame to me, but ok
NEIGH006 (10:45:15 PM): they didn't say (ps this is chardish don't tell)
This is Afrobean (10:45:18 PM): chardish did admit
This is Afrobean (10:45:20 PM): EVENTUALLY
NEIGH006 (10:45:21 PM): then I would have known it could have been a fram
NEIGH006 (10:47:04 PM): This Is Chardish (5:05:29 PM): they're an intricate security system designed to protect me in the event that you're a wolf
NEIGH006 (10:47:08 PM): wtf, a little high on yourself
NEIGH006 (10:47:11 PM): it wasn't that intricate
This is Afrobean (10:47:20 PM): sure it was
This is Afrobean (10:47:28 PM): you didn't figure it out right away
NEIGH006 (10:47:29 PM): maybe if you're dim
NEIGH006 (10:47:37 PM): I figured out it was chardish right away
This is Afrobean (10:47:37 PM): you thought it was a fake
NEIGH006 (10:47:50 PM): and I knew it was supposed to scatter a message among several people
NEIGH006 (10:48:02 PM): and I knew that one "trusted" person was going to start it at some critical moment
NEIGH006 (10:48:10 PM): and the whole thing would recursively collapse
NEIGH006 (10:48:15 PM): I just didn't know for what purpose
NEIGH006 (10:48:23 PM): and why the fuck shouldn't it be fake afrobean
NEIGH006 (10:48:34 PM): who in their right mind trusts "do this and you win I promise"
NEIGH006 (10:48:40 PM): from anonymous
NEIGH006 (10:48:41 PM): really
stressreliefball (10:48:47 PM): you WERE the first person to post their pm, though
NEIGH006 (10:49:36 PM): after everyone begged me
NEIGH006 (10:49:47 PM): adn then I only showed the important stuff to other people with pm's
NEIGH006 (10:49:50 PM): and discussed it with them

[alainbryden]

Now, it is typical wolf to go on and on and on in defence based on some loose facts. This is not what I've done. What I have done is extract 20 or so very concrete facts for why the reasons you think I'm a wolf are incorrect. I did not attempt to use them to prove to you that I am a human. This is impossible to do with those facts, just make sure you keep that in mind. I'm didn't try anything funny. It's extremely reasonable.

I have posted in thoroughly in defense. Now I will post in offence.

JurseyRider is, in my mind, undoubtably human. I know I make this assumption in many games that I talk to her, but that is because I am able to know her as a person, and her pattern of thinking. Besides, it is obvious even to the unpassionate eye that her complete trust in the pm's (naive as it may have been) is something very excusing. She is the type of person chardish targetted. A green human, awed by the complexity of the message, and, allthough she was critical of its integrity, Eva believed more than anyone I talked to about it that it was important to give away as little as possible of the letters to anyone. This trust in her, actually, encouraged me at first to give away so much of my pm to her, ironically.

FishFishRevolution had me weary when in some points of the personal chat between Jursey, him and I, he, at some points, pushed harder or initiated further discovery of the message than I did. At first I thought he was trying to ruin it, but then he showed restraint. Perhaps it was the restraint of a wolf not wanting to be seen for what he is attempting, but mostly I'm sure he was just curious as I was as to the subject of the encryption, as well as the chain of people to be traversed.

Talisman is, for some reason, completely underplaying the fact that the letter was saying that if Chardish died, he is a wolf. Chardish died, so why is he not being attacked? Who knows, there are, at this point, some very vague reasons for why Chardish may have been incorrect. Providing Chardish was human and when to such extents for that message, why would we have a reason to take one word for it that he was wrong. Explore this more. I, for instance, think it's awful that Talisman is using the lack of attention to this fact, and ignoring it also, and I'm sure he's just cringing that someone actually tries to take what Chardish asserted seriously. So I prod again at Talisman, who has my vote, and my recommendation to describe why in the world we shouldn't believe the message.

Afrobean seems like a credible seer. Everyone knows that if you come out as seer, 1) you will be guarded if one is alive. 2) If anyone else comes out as seer, it will be glaringly obvious, always, who is the real seer. The fake one always slips up. Always. The act of coming out is proof enough for me. If anyone else makes this claim, we will know easily whether or not they are truthful.

Tasselfoot, who put a vote on me, is right out of his mind. He picked me out of a long list of people who got the message, and tried to figure it out instead of just blindly accepting it. He has been an incredibly indescernable character so far this game. After talking to me early in the game and gaining surface trust, he showed this connection in the forums and was critisized for it. It seems that as a direct result, he is trying to push himself away from me under the assumption that I will be found a wolf and make him look like one also. This would be a human thing. The other possibility is that he is infact a wolf, and clung to me, a smart human, in the beginning to have crediblility later in the game, but getting suspicion for that, he decided to go with the opposite. You can't be so two-faced Tasselfoot.

And to make sure this doesn't lose attention

Flypie, what were you thinking in consciously taking a phantom? It is the most unreasonable thing to do. This is what I figure. You are smart, but not too smart. FAR too smart to not realise how hurtful it is, you know the rules, and you know that it's smarter just to vote yourself. This being said, I think you're dim enough that, as a wolf, you would think taking a phantom would make you seem human, becase no wolf would let that happen to themselves, for fear of lynching later. You wouldn't realise the inconsistency in that humans have just as much reason to avoid a phantom. Phantom's are a punishment, they are not an option. Coming out of day one I was sure this made you a wolf, but there are many alternatives and your realative importance is not a threat. (Please don't take this as an insult.)



*Edited to change bold tags to underlines. Sorry

[alainbryden]

Eva, I took so much out of it because no one reads it. Period. I bolded everything that was extremely relevant, and I kept in everything that kept these parts in context.

[whorlichan]

I requested this in chat, but I'm going to do so again here:

I realize it's obvious you're not voting for EVERYONE you named and bolded, but please humor me and use some other way of flagging suspicious names that you're NOT voting for.

Thank you.

[blahblah18]

ok, to ignore alain and afro and the PM's for now...

Talisman that was a retarded vote on me with hilarious reasons. My vote with random or no evidence late in the day is kinda absurd, considering i spent hours in the chat saying how i was most suspicious of you, stating my reasons, and saying I was going to vote near the end of the day. It came when there were 2 candidates, meaning 1 person had 3 votes, the other had 2 votes? sorry, but I'm not one to vote on a person with time left juts because I feel its necessary to bandwagon on one of the 2 choices. I would've much rather seen you lynched day 1 then either Q or Tass, and so with LD's vote already on you, it made it more palpable that that would happen.

[talisman]

Ok last post of the night for me.

Alain, what do you think my posting that convo with chardish was for? For stating publicly before I put it up what the message was? I knew the chardish pm scheme would indict me, that's why I posted all that stuff. I didn't blow it off at all... I don't know what you're talking about. Furthermore, why should you believe the indictment against me in particular? Chardish just had to pick one person not receiving a pm and he happened to pick me, it means nothing about whether or not I'm human. Furthermore, it was not the fact that chardish came to anyone in particular before to reveal himself that got him killed, it was the fact that he really poorly disguised his writing style and that certain people thought it would be a good idea to post their pms, making all that clearer to anyone in the chat who had written them. So the whole point of the scheme was kind of void anyway. You've said yourself many times that everyone knew chardish had written it and I agree. Obviously the wolves did too, and they knew it wasn't them who had written it, and it was an easy kill. Also they may have vamp seered chardish night one.

Blah, you ignored the fact that your reasons were all fabricated or generalized. The thing where you said I said I'd never vote for tass was a flat-out lie, and your point about my posts not saying anything wasn't true either. Also, you know just as well as I do that regardless of how the votes stood when you voted that it was Q vs. Tass. Everyone did, that's where the momentum was. So don't pretend like it wasn't a two candidate game because it was.

ok sleep now.

[blahblah18]

hmm a proposition i jstu thoguht of... give me feedback...

Once a wolf dies, I would want the psychic to come out and tell us. there is a wolf seer, blues in theory will be picked off at a rate of more then 2X faster.. in fact its exponentially faster, what with a triple syphoning process of lynching wolfing and wolf-seering. I feel specifically in this game that it is crucial for us to find the identity of at least one of the wolves, and that it is incredibly worth it for us to find out when we get one.
Thoughts, opinions?

[alainbryden]

If the psychic comes out then the guardian has to pick between them and afrobean. Bad idea. On the other hand it would be useful knowing whether Q was a wolf and dealing with any observed connections there. For psychic safety though, maybe it should wait a bit.

[blahblah18]

nonono he should come out once a wolf has been lynched, not until then

[alainbryden]

Alain, what do you think my posting that convo with chardish was for?

This reiterates my point that you can't just post 8000 word conversations assuming that someone will analyse it entirely and see evidence for your opinion. It doesn't work that way. Either summarise and quote, or hilight. Be reasonable.

[alainbryden]

nonono he should come out once a wolf has been lynched, not until then

If we could be certain that's what he's doing, that would be very ideal. But we can't assume the psychic is doing this, meaning we can't assume anyone is a wolf or human until the psychic is revealed. Therefore, allthough the plan is a good one, the psychic is still useless to the general greens until he comes forth. I think it's better that the blues control the psychic anyhow and work influence in other ways. So my opinion is still that the psychic stay hidden.