Ingame Song Information

[ichliebekase]

Re: Ingame Song Information

In this case, it doesn't matter if some songs change difficulty; any songs listed with a difficulty of 11 = [oni] token unlock.

I agree with this, mainly because the range of possible Oni unlocks is so wide, going from songs as low as Club [yea it's not that low, but for people who can jack, it's an easy unlock] up to Demon Fire, one of the hardest FMO's available. It's such a big range that it doesn't make sense to just not have all of the FMO's unlock Oni.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I'm also curious as to why there's no coding in which songs of a certain difficulty can automatically achieve a specific goal (i.e. unlock a token). With some songs of equal difficulty unaccounted for, how come token reqs must be added manually to individual songs?

The main reasoning I'm hearing is that difficulty changes are dynamic. But is it not possible to make coding to encompass one set of difficulty? e.g. "any song of difficulty 11 AAAed = true = token unlocked" for [oni] token

In this case, it doesn't matter if some songs change difficulty; any songs listed with a difficulty of 11 = [oni] token unlock.

The only possible way is using "Difficulty" or "Song Order" as reqs.

If we can't use these as skill token req parameters, we will have to change the reqs for Otaku heavy/oni.

[HammyMcSquirrel]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I think it would make the most sense if Oni was unlocked by AAAing FMOs at or slightly below its difficulty. (If Oni stays as an 81, then I'd say a AAA on a 78-81 would be appropriate.) I just don't think a AAA on a 76 should give the same thing as a AAA on an 83. Like NWE vs Piano Etude (Gymnastics).

Yeah I'm sure it's easier to just have it coded to be any FMO AAA, but that doesn't make the idea behind the token any better. It just makes it less like a challenge and really less significant. People would feel accomplished that they got their first FMO AAA and Oni would become the cherry on top. It'd be nice to keep those two things separate and rather equal in achievement if possible.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I think it would make the most sense if Oni was unlocked by AAAing FMOs at or slightly below its difficulty. (If Oni stays as an 81, then I'd say a AAA on a 78-81 would be appropriate.) I just don't think a AAA on a 76 should give the same thing as a AAA on an 83. Like NWE vs Piano Etude (Gymnastics).

Yes this is true, Otaku oni was FGO when it was released (avmiss era), so it was suitable for AAA FMO token, but now like mid FMO due to the avmiss fix.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I think it would make the most sense if Oni was unlocked by AAAing FMOs at or slightly below its difficulty. (If Oni stays as an 81, then I'd say a AAA on a 78-81 would be appropriate.) I just don't think a AAA on a 76 should give the same thing as a AAA on an 83. Like NWE vs Piano Etude (Gymnastics).

First: What's the point of having to AAA a song near the difficulty of Oni itself? If Oni itself is supposed to be a tricky file, it shouldn't just be for people who you'd expect to be getting a near-AAA on it. And look at Heavy, the file you get is quite a bit harder than the ones you have to AAA to unlock it. If you want something that "makes the most sense", it should be to AAA *any FMO*, like the token description said for years.

Second: A AAA on a 76 should absolutely give the same thing as a AAA on an 83, because they both meet the requirement. This is a skill token unlock, and it should NOT matter whether you take an easy road or a hard road. All that should matter is that you meet the requirement. For instance, the requirement for Disconnected is to get under 100 goods on Robotix and pass, but no reasonable person would say that the people who get 50+ goods don't deserve the token (since their unlock doesn't compare to the people who AAA'd Robotix).

Yeah I'm sure it's easier to just have it coded to be any FMO AAA, but that doesn't make the idea behind the token any better. It just makes it less like a challenge and really less significant. People would feel accomplished that they got their first FMO AAA and Oni would become the cherry on top. It'd be nice to keep those two things separate and rather equal in achievement if possible.

I completely disagree. For a long time, Oni was unlockable by the lowest FMOs, and that was the standard for how difficult the file was to get. A large fraction of the people who have Oni now got it during that time, and it makes no sense to arbitrarily make the token harder just because the people who already have it don't think it's all that hard anymore. (It never WAS all that hard to someone of that skill level! That's kind of the point!) The original idea behind the token is to AAA any FMO, and that remained unchanged until pretty recently. With any other requirement, you're just disadvantaging people for getting to a certain level of skill in 2011 instead of 2009.

[HammyMcSquirrel]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Heavy is a different situation because it's in a difficulty group above what unlocks it. I'm talking solely about the Oni unlock here. Heavy was also made with a different meaning than Oni.

The original meaning of Oni was to reflect the "best of the best" at the time of its release. (Which is why Shash's avatar is on the token.) I'm talking about a small group of people. (I want to say around 20 people at the time.) It originally wasn't meant for a lot of people to unlock it, and an FMO AAA just happened to reflect this notion. If we really wanted to keep the token to the true intentions of its creators, then the requirements would be a lot more difficult today. A lot harder than an FMO AAA. An "FMO AAA" isn't the true meaning behind Oni. I see you argue for this a lot as if a FMO AAA is what really makes Oni, but that was just the technical requirement.

FFR's difficulty has changed a lot since Oni came out. This is obvious. The extremes of difficulty became more spread out and an attempt was made at changing the technical requirement so the meaning behind it could stay the same. This proved to be too much to keep up with, though. All I'm proposing is a system that will stay true to a part of Oni's original intentions. Make it a challenge with its own unique achievement, not a supplement to something everybody already finds to be a great achievement.

I left out anything above 81 because I believe it would take away from the achievement factor to be awarded with an easier file to play. I left out anything below 78 because, again, I want the Oni unlock to still be somewhat of a challenge in comparison to how it was a challenge back then. Kind of like being on the last level before fighting the final boss. Generally the last level is hard and the final boss is harder. I wouldn't want the "last level" to be too easy in comparison to the "final boss".

Edit: Just want to clarify that when I say that I want it to be a "challenge", I don't want it to be made any easier than it is now. Not necessarily significantly harder. Difficulty 77 FMOs would be gone, sure. But like Jimerax said, it's more like a mid-FMO now. 78-81 reflects this better.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I see you argue for this a lot as if a FMO AAA is what really makes Oni, but that was just the technical requirement.

Yeah, but it IS a skill token. All the ones but Heavy and Oni were created to set a specific bar, a bar which was never changed since then. So that way an unlock right after the avmiss fix is completely comparable to an unlock now.

And, yeah, my argument might basically sum to "Oni should be about AAAing an FMO", but yours is basically "Oni is supposed to be for the best players only". Thing is, you might like to think that, but if you look at the numbers it's simply false. 564 people have unlocked it. OVER FIVE HUNDRED. This is certainly no exclusive club for the best players only! It's not like you get automatic respect for having unlocked it, either; at this point it's just another step on the way to being actually good at this game. So I think it is pretty ridiculous to be elevating the requirements to a level that most of the people who already have the token can't actually accomplish.

Incidentally, if you want the "last level" and "final boss" to be a good step in difficulty, how do you rationalize making the Oni unlock *harder* when the file itself has apparently gotten *easier*?

[bmah]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I'm guessing that a lot of people have the token because nothing was previously done to raise the bar. It doesn't seem to be "what Hammy thinks vs what qqrwef thinks"; Hammy is simply honoring the original intentions of the token, which hasn't been properly addressed ever since its release (hence over nine tho- erm over five hundred users already having this token). From there, the debate comes down to whether it's better to honor the token's original purpose or better to approach the issue from a static and more practical aspect. If I had it my way, I'd ask the person who originally proposed the idea of the oni token and get his opinion on it. w/e

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Honoring the original purpose is impossible because it would require removing the token from literally hundreds of users. But increasing the difficulty without doing that is unfair to the people who might be able to get the easier requirement, but wouldn't be able to get the harder one.

[justin_ator]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Taking the token from people really just isn't fair...

/bias

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Taking the token from people really just isn't fair...

Yeah, that was my point...


Here's the original newspost for anyone who's wondering: http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...ings-47-48-49/

EDIT: lol, Silence? That doesn't even have any framers.

[bmah]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I think what Hammy meant by "honoring the original intentions of the token" was that there should be few people who can acquire the token at one period of time, whatever defines that period - doesn't mean that tokens should be removed from people who already have it. Honestly, it's only an issue because the requirement is temporally a moving target. Furthermore, defining what is the "skill range of the times" is entirely nebulous and ultimately arbitrary. For simplicity's sake, I think it's far better for all songs marked as an FMO to unlock the token.

@above post: I got the token through AAAing Silence many years ago

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Re: Ingame Song Information

lol, its just a skill token, who cares. :P

[HammyMcSquirrel]

Re: Ingame Song Information

lmao yikes

I said that the real intention of the token was for it to be acquired only by the "best of the best". I didn't say it should still be that way. I basically was implying that putting so much focus onto the requirement of any FMO AAA being able to unlock it was stupid without looking at why the FMO AAA requirement was put in in the first place.

Again, the FMO AAA requirement was put in as a basis of the real intention of the token. (That is, being "one retardedly hard skill token" as said to Tass by Shash. Which more formally can be translated as, "One token that will be something the really good players would only have a chance at.") I then said that such a basis has obviously been too much to hold on to because of how FFR has changed so much. And then I said, "Let's keep this token as having somewhat of a challenge still because then it would at least be similar to how it was made to be." Again, I didn't say it should still be only for the absolute top players.

Hopefully all of that is clear now.

Oni is supposed to cater to a situation relative to its difficulty. It was purposely made as a ridiculously difficult chart for its time. It is supposed to be an unlock that is harder than what was played to unlock it. It was also supposed to be something that was only reachable by the really good players, but it's really clear that that couldn't continue to work so well. So yes, let's all move past that one part because I'm not aiming to remove previous Oni unlocks or make the unlock a lot harder. The point I want to make in this aspect is that Oni is in its current situation because as difficulties were being figured out more and more, the unlock for it was being kept relative to its own difficulty.

Now that we are about to do some more refining to the difficulty system, I'm saying that it would be appropriate to finalize that relativity it should have, but not by making it a lot easier nor harder to unlock based on the files you have to play. I'm taking this current wide range of difficulty (77-83) and putting it into a range where the people who unlocked Oni can actually be considered as a closer whole. (Like the original intention of the token. O: ) Otherwise the extremes for obtaining this token are too spread apart where it begins to lose meaning. The more you spread apart the requirements, the weaker you make the representation of those who have the token as a collective whole.

Oni is supposed to signify players. When it comes down to it, you want players to be signified by AAAing any FMO. I want players to be signified by AAAing any FMO and by acquiring Oni on separate occasions because I feel the two are distinct enough to deserve unique praise. You crush those two events together into one and Oni loses a shitload of significance. I don't want that.

[who_cares973]

Re: Ingame Song Information

suggestion:

remove the FSO title
change all fgo's from difficulty 12 to 13
split up the fmo into two groups(For Experts Only(FEO) and leave FMO for the second)
have FEO be the new 11 anf fmo the new 12
move all the high vc's to FEO

its getting ridiculous in the fmo section now and saying something is fmo is becoming more and more vague as new songs are added. while this is more of a patch for the difficulty problem i think its a step in the right direction