Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Plan's response is about as fair as it comes.

Paperclip: I never implicated that it was a "constructive" argument -- I'm implicating that the basis of this argument has stemmed from a large amount of bandwagoning. People have indicated the same reasons behind why things should/shouldn't happen without looking into really deep detail. I find it funny that people are just focusing on ranks and chart quality only, when a large majority of the inactive (again, referring to non-active members who don't frequent the forum) community isn't going to focus on either of these things.

For removal:

- in many instances, legacy files break the overall uniformity of FFR as a whole; for a very long time, FFR has converted files with no background, no special/distracting effects, with respectable audio quality and relatively similar game mechanics (follow the chart, read the chart, hit the chart). Many of the legacy files have very poor audio, random effects like moving boxes/circles, and occasionally have random titling/subtitling on the bottom right corner of the file; this is in addition to chart quality that is poor, but it's not poor because people say it's poor, it's poor due to the lack of control that simfile artists had when creating a file.

- many of the files are quite dated and surely don't reflect the quality of files that are in game now, and in addition, somewhat inhibit the concept of rhythm gaming as the files are quite lacking in that area

Against removal:
- removing files from the game might seem like a good idea in theory, but don't forget that you're not just removing the simfiles, you're also removing the songs. Regardless of what the active forum community believes, there will undoubtedly be people that are affected by the removals unless we can guarantee that v2's will be produced (and even then, some of the old legacy charts aren't completely terrible - anyone who hates Beethoven Virus has problems ) - this removes the nostalgia factor with replacement and forces older players to unlock the files they once loved, which might not be easy for multiple reasons

- removing files under any circumstance inevitably affects statistics, and considering how many people have played these songs that have been around for such a long time, that change will be drastic.

- it takes up staff time to remove these files

- it also somewhat demeans the previous stepartists who, at the time, had no better tools or options to create these quality files

Neither:
- legacy files are part of FFR's history and serve as archival, so they absolutely cannot be removed permanently - they have to be accessible at some point

I can go on longer, but I don't feel like it.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Just gonna re-quote myself because I want to know people's opinion on this :



Public levelranks : to be used when determining the skill of the player
Global levelranks : to be used when determining the dedication of the player

Kinda close to what I was thinking, I missed that post from you. Only difference is I think all ranks should be viewable basically (from my stance I mean).

I mentioned before but I'm not sure if people just didn't notice it with the other stuff or they just didn't care to address it so I'm going to put it on it's own.

I made a couple suggestions but I personally like the most and would actually like to see if we're going to have all these different ranks that we have a public, token, skill token, legacy and whatever else that would make people happy but then still have an overall ranking for all of these collectively. Basically to show your completion of the game in it's entirety. You can be the best at any of the sections and you can be the best overall. And all these ranks should be displayable. I hate that token ranks are practically non-existent publicaly, it makes that part of the game less appealing to me.

[j-rodd123]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

halogen the argument isn't about removing the files from the game.......

[noname219]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Kinda close to what I was thinking, I missed that post from you. Only difference is I think all ranks should be viewable basically.

'Hidden' is simply a term I came-up with. It should be visible on people's profile just like the current token levelranks.

[foxfire667]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Read back to prior posts with paperclip and such cause a lot of the stuff you mentioned here I already said something about. You also replied to me based on something I replied to paperclip about and not you, I didn't write something off as stupid only because of history I've brought up a few reasons I don't like the idea and even offered other ideas which people haven't bothered to address.

Specifically speaking, your reply about reevaluation to me was:

It would be stupid to reevaluate them because they wouldn't pass today's standards. They're a part of FFR's past, I don't see why we're trying to eradicate that so much.

It seemed implied that them being a part of FFR's part was a significant point here, and also that they wouldn't pass today's standards (which would be the entire point of the reevaluation). I really haven't expanded upon how I would go about this whole reevaluation thing though, and I probably should so you get a better idea about exactly what I mean.

If a large amount of FFR users appeal a certain file for reevaluation, then it would be put in a judging queue. It would then go through the equivalent of what a file submitted through a batch would endure, and if it passes, it's left alone. If it fails, it would be put in a re-stepping queue, where users have the change to re-step the file (most likely around the same difficulty range if possible) and replace the older file in the public ranks. I suppose replaced files don't have to be removed or anything, and the legacy genre could morph into the equivalent of a old versions section or something. Since FFR is quite keen on file archival. Just more crazy hypothetical garb, feel free to pick it apart so the concept can be further thought through and improved though.

As for your suggestion:

A: Break up the files into basically different games like a DDR game or something would be so like have files from 2002 - 2005 together 2006 to 2009 together then 2010 to now or something to that effect.

B: We have all these separate ranks and then an overall rank that accounts for all of them.

Grouping files up by year seems a bit odd, at least from a ranking standpoint. It seems like you'd be dividing up the main public average ranks into smaller subsections. I'm not really opposed to this as much as I feel if we are going to divide up the ranks, we should do it by something different than time frame.

Perhaps ranks by genre would be a better solution, or something by that effect. Though an overall rank for every file in game to see how much you've done doesn't seem like a bad idea, assuming that is was a separate stat from public ranks in terms of what shows up on profiles and such. I wouldn't mind that, considering if it was done in great detail, it could tell a lot about how much people have attempted to conquer in the grand scale of FFR, or if they are only focusing on certain sections of the game.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Gee if FFR is a democracy now can we finally have a voting system on files that go to the batch rather than the current judgement system that most people complain about every time there's a batch?

Sounds good to me.

Seriously though, there's a poll in this thread. Majority wins. If you actually believe you have super special rights or that your personal opinion is more important than anyone else who voices it here then I really have no more reason to respond to your posts. (I'm not accusing you of this, though your post sounds like you disagree with the perfectly normal standpoint "if most people want x we should do x").

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

'Hidden' is simply a term I came-up with. It should be visible on people's profile just like the current token levelranks.

Ah okay, then yeah I'm basically on the same page with you.

Specifically speaking, your reply about reevaluation to me was:


It seemed implied that them being a part of FFR's part was a significant point here, and also that they wouldn't pass today's standards (which would be the entire point of the reevaluation). I really haven't expanded upon how I would go about this whole reevaluation thing though, and I probably should so you get a better idea about exactly what I mean.

If a large amount of FFR users appeal a certain file for reevaluation, then it would be put in a judging queue. It would then go through the equivalent of what a file submitted through a batch would endure, and if it passes, it's left alone. If it fails, it would be put in a re-stepping queue, where users have the change to re-step the file (most likely around the same difficulty range if possible) and replace the older file in the public ranks. I suppose replaced files don't have to be removed or anything, and the legacy genre could morph into the equivalent of a old versions section or something. Since FFR is quite keen on file archival. Just more crazy hypothetical garb, feel free to pick it apart so the concept can be further thought through and improved though.

As for your suggestion:


Grouping files up by year seems a bit odd, at least from a ranking standpoint. It seems like you'd be dividing up the main public average ranks into smaller subsections. I'm not really opposed to this as much as I feel if we are going to divide up the ranks, we should do it by something different than time frame.

Perhaps ranks by genre would be a better solution, or something by that effect. Though an overall rank for every file in game to see how much you've done doesn't seem like a bad idea, assuming that is was a separate stat from public ranks in terms of what shows up on profiles and such. I wouldn't mind that, considering if it was done in great detail, it could tell a lot about how much people have attempted to conquer in the grand scale of FFR, or if they are only focusing on certain sections of the game.

The amount of work for that would be insane when it comes to the reevaluation stuff. It's hard enough to get regular batches done on time honestly.

The years I suggested because the years have different stepping qualities which is what this whole debate is about. It's not the suggestion I like most but it was one of many that I thought of. The one I think would be awesome is posted above and noname has basically the same idea which I had totally missed.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

halogen the argument isn't about removing the files from the game.......

Removal encompasses the charts being "removed" from public rank, sorry about that.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

- it takes up staff time to remove these files

I kinda understand that the staff aren't our playthings and we don't get to bark orders for them to spend their day doing this. However, if the staff aren't dedicated to the site enough to do something as seemingly simple as this, then maybe we need some more people on our team?

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Sounds good to me.

Seriously though, there's a poll in this thread. Majority wins. If you actually believe you have super special rights or that your personal opinion is more important than anyone else who voices it here then I really have no more reason to respond to your posts. (I'm not accusing you of this, though your post sounds like you disagree with the perfectly normal standpoint "if most people want x we should do x").

I suggested a voting system on files many times and there were a huge amount of supporters but guess what, didn't matter because "normal players don't know what a good file is". Anyway not relevant so I wont get into it.

Aside from that the poll in this thread is useless as I mentioned before because people have been selecting the wrong answer due to the wording + people can use alts to manipulate poll results. It would have to go off the things posted here and weighing the options. I never said my personal opinion is more important but I have the right to voice another side to the debate based on how I view it which I did. I don't think it's fair and I've made it clear that I myself don't think it's fair. Never said that was going to be the ultimate decider of what happens here but I'm going to fight for what I want just as much as all of you are doing. Stop acting as though I'm the only person pushing my views.

[Velocity]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

nope

[foxfire667]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

The amount of work for that would be insane when it comes to the reevaluation stuff. It's hard enough to get regular batches done on time honestly.

The years I suggested because the years have different stepping qualities which is what this whole debate is about. It's not the suggestion I like most but it was one of many that I thought of. The one I think would be awesome is posted above and noname has basically the same idea which I had totally missed.

Time is not a particular thing I am worried about with the reevaluation process. It could take a few years, the judges could reevaluate files on their own time, that is all good with me. The important thing would be that steps are being made to sync and properly re-step files the judges and the community would deem currently unfit for FFR. I certainly don't mean for people to be rushing around and doing loads of work, just that the progress is slowly being made at the communities own pace.

I completely agree with a global rank for everything on FFR. Something you can show around so people can see your dedication to working on all of the available files in game sounds awesome. As for the years, putting hard lines on when files were a certain quality level seems a bit subjective, I mainly suggested by genre because of the existing legacy genre, which encompasses most of the files people seem to have problems with. Either way though, I'm be happy with the idea.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

I suggested a voting system on files many times and there were a huge amount of supporters but guess what, didn't matter because "normal players don't know what a good file is". Anyway not relevant so I wont get into it.

Fair enough, it's off-topic anyway~

Aside from that the poll in this thread is useless as I mentioned before because people have been selecting the wrong answer due to the wording + people can use alts to manipulate poll results. It would have to go off the things posted here and weighing the options. I never said my personal opinion is more important but I have the right to voice another side to the debate based on how I view it which I did. I don't think it's fair and I've made it clear that I myself don't think it's fair. Never said that was going to be the ultimate decider of what happens here but I'm going to fight for what I want just as much as all of you are doing. Stop acting as though I'm the only person pushing my views.

I'm sorry if you felt as though I am personally attacking you (that is not the case). It was simply your wording that, to me, made it seem like [insert stuff I said earlier]. One thing though; you probably wouldn't be as against this poll as you are if it were in your favour. I agree that the poll's question was bad because of the "no longer" in it, and a few people accidentally said No when actually meaning Yes. This can be calculated for. And if you think people would cheat in polls using alts then literally any poll ever is useless. It's possible, of course, but do you really feel like polls in general have no value? :/ (I agree with you that we should go off on what's been posted here, and decide the final opinion off of that rather than this poll, though! This poll in particular is skewed etc.)

I'm actually glad you posted the above, since that sounded a lot more coherent/reasonable/etc. (to me, at least!) than the others (which is why I've almost exclusively responded to you). Like, really. I'd say we simply disagree on opinion on this matter; after all it doesn't look like either of our opinions are going to change. I understand your points, and I hope you understand mine. I'm sorry if I caused any hard feelings.



Halogen's big post sums things up from an objective side reaonably well IMO.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

I completely agree with a global rank for everything on FFR. Something you can show around so people can see your dedication to working on all of the available files in game sounds awesome. As for the years, putting hard lines on when files were a certain quality level seems a bit subjective, I mainly suggested by genre because of the existing legacy genre, which encompasses most of the files people seem to have problems with. Either way though, I'm be happy with the idea.

The quality of what's considered a good file has changed over the years, I wouldn't really call that subjective so much. The years wouldn't have to be broken as I had them, it was just a visual suggestion to give.

I'm just one of those people that enjoy the older files way more than what's considered "technically correct" now. No offense meant to the stepauthors that have been making things recently because by no means am I saying the files are bad, they're just not for me. I like the old school styles of stepping and I'd hate to see these files keep getting pushed out of public ranks because they don't fit current standards and basically have no meaning in terms of ranking anymore. That's why I suggested some different possible breakdowns while still having a total overall ranking for all things on the site. I feel that would be one of the most fair options to do because then it's encompassing basically everything the game has to offer.

Fair enough, it's off-topic anyway~


I'm sorry if you felt as though I am personally attacking you (that is not the case). It was simply your wording that, to me, made it seem like [insert stuff I said earlier]. One thing though; you probably wouldn't be as against this poll as you are if it were in your favour. I agree that the poll's question was bad because of the "no longer" in it, and a few people accidentally said No when actually meaning Yes. This can be calculated for. And if you think people would cheat in polls using alts then literally any poll ever is useless. It's possible, of course, but do you really feel like polls in general have no value? :/ (I agree with you that we should go off on what's been posted here, and decide the final opinion off of that rather than this poll, though! This poll in particular is skewed etc.)

I'm actually glad you posted the above, since that sounded a lot more coherent/reasonable/etc. (to me, at least!) than the others (which is why I've almost exclusively responded to you). Like, really. I'd say we simply disagree on opinion on this matter; after all it doesn't look like either of our opinions are going to change. I understand your points, and I hope you understand mine. I'm sorry if I caused any hard feelings.

I've never relied on polls unless I was able to see the people voting, so regardless in my favor or not I wouldn't be relying on the poll. There's an option for it to display who voted for what and it would have been better if he had selected as such. When I was admin I had the ability to look and see if people were cheating polls so it was different then as well. Now I can't see who voted what and whether people are spamming alts. I do know for sure some people selected the wrong answer because it was posted in the thread as such and most of those people were on your side, but I brought it up anyway. So no my intentions are not for my benefit when I say the poll is useless.

And yes I'm scatterbrained right now. I'm 4 days past my due date for this baby and there is a such thing as baby brain when you're pregnant, unfortunately it kicks my ass. I'm also dealing with a lot of other irl stressors right now which makes it a little difficult for me to collect my thoughts sometimes. If you want to discuss the simfile thing I'm more than happy to talk in PMs or skype.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

I've never relied on polls unless I was able to see the people voting, so regardless in my favor or not I wouldn't be relying on the poll. There's an option for it to display who voted for what and it would have been better if he had selected as such. When I was admin I had the ability to look and see if people were cheating polls so it was different then as well. Now I can't see who voted what and whether people are spamming alts. I do know for sure some people selected the wrong answer because it was posted in the thread as such and most of those people were on your side, but I brought it up anyway. So no my intentions are not for my benefit when I say the poll is useless.

Fair enough! I respect this opinion and I can see where you're coming from. Can't say much more about that, other than what I've already said or implied.

And yes I'm scatterbrained right now. I'm 4 days past my due date for this baby and there is a such thing as baby brain when you're pregnant, unfortunately it kicks my ass. I'm also dealing with a lot of other irl stressors right now which makes it a little difficult for me to collect my thoughts sometimes. If you want to discuss the simfile thing I'm more than happy to talk in PMs or skype.

That's fine. (I'm not sure if this was pointed towards me specifically or in general) Again, sorry if I inflicted any bad feelings. I feel as though us two specifically don't have much to discuss anymore at this point; we know eachother's opinions and why we have them. Let's agree to disagree. (Though of course if you wish to shoot me a PM or IM, feel free.)