Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

The way that people are acting is just further proving that this argument is not only irresolvable, but is also quite stupid.

This shouldn't have even been brought up to begin with - it just stemmed off as a side argument regarding the removal of/replacement of CP/DP/RATO (and later, Revo).

Previous users worked hard to deal with the issue of playing these files when this issue could have easily been presented -years- ago under the same reasoning (lower file quality, lower standards, lack of the ability). It's only being brought up and bandwagoned now because there are multiple people that have their own ulterior motives regarding why the files should be removed, most of which have to do with rank.

Also, if 80% of the active community thinks X, then we can only assume that 80% of the entire community thinks X also. It may be less or more in reality, but since there's no way of knowing for sure (since they're silent), we'll have to act upon the active voices. That's how things go.

Absolutely not -- and this is the basis of statistics; you cannot legitimately say that a small size will be reflective of a larger sampling size in this instance. Everyone in the active community is engaged in this argument with legitimate reasoning, whereas the "entire" community also encompasses the inactive forum users (inactive as in does not frequent the forums but plays the game) that probably don't care about quality of charts, ranks, etc.

With that being said, this argument really has gone on too far and it's quite obvious that it's going to get nowhere. Let's refer to the old quote: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

What I don't get with this thread is the whole idea of "it never was brought up before, so it's not a problem." It's being brought up now, so why not discuss?

This shouldn't have even been brought up to begin with - it just stemmed off as a side argument regarding the removal of/replacement of CP/DP/RATO (and later, Revo).

Absolutely not. This discussion seems important enough to spawn a 4 page debate. Why squelch it?

[foxfire667]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

However, we also must remember that our voice doesn't matter half the time we think it does, and that this conversation might be complete moot compared to the agendas of the people in charge of this change.

This entire thread is completely hypothetical, and anyone who believes in the slightest this change might legitimately occur seems a bit naive to me.

Had a moderately long post in response to psychoangel, but of course FF crashed. Time to write some of it again...

If we're going to eradicate legacy to another ranking then we need to basically do it for a lot of files because there are a lot that would be considered "shit" files now. Objectively as you like to mention for the legacy files.

I already mentioned I wasn't opposed to this idea, but you wrote it off as stupid merely because the files are a part of FFR's history, which is a pretty silly reason. I very much enjoy the idea that FFR's files could be constantly reevaluated and improved over time actually.

I remember before I was an active community member Beethoven Virus disappeared and I was so upset and had no idea what was going on because I wasn't in the community and I LOVED that file, still do actually and don't think it should be moved to a different rank page. Stop making assumptions for the newer players who don't have an active stance in the community to voice their opinions on it. Base if off your own reasoning and don't drag people's voices in that you don't know whether or not they care.

If you find legacy files fun, that is perfectly fine, but don't tell me you can say these files are not off-sync and a pretty bad rhythmical representation of the music they are supposed to express. This is the key issue I have with these files, this is a rhythm game, and if the arrows aren't going to follow the beat of the song pretty much precisely, what is even the point? I love dump files to no end, but you wouldn't see me defending them being worthy of actually representing the music they are attached to, or want to have them in game for that matter. The same rule applies for things like the legacy files (or any file when you get down to it). If you find me legacy files that are completely accurately synced, then I'm cool with those, and I would throw the same fate I want on the majority of legacy files (out of public ranks) on any file that was an off-sync mess.

Also, it's a bit silly to berate me for suggesting to get off sync files out of public ranks (the ones people generally are interested in improving) when we are playing a rhythm game. It is also a bit silly to pretty much shut down a suggestion because of a "what if" with people who are not voicing their opinions where we can all see them. If we focused on the what if possibility that heavily, nothing would ever get done. If people are not voicing their opinions, either they don't care enough to oppose or defend the topic at hand, or they just don't know about the fact it's being discussed in the first place. As for the latter, that is too bad, but we can't hang up on stuff like that, because there is no way to rectify this situation really.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Absolutely not. This discussion seems important enough to spawn a 4 page debate. Why squelch it?

Because the bases of argument on both sides is opinionated, and naturally will be so.

The only objective point of argument is actually in favor for those who want it removed, and that is relating to the fact that the files are inferior in quality (and were unavoidably so). Counter-argument to this is that file removal detrimentally affects rank when it absolutely doesn't need to be, both of which are highly objective points and DO directly affect players in a large quantity.

If you remove the files and put them in their level ranks, the counter-argument is that the scores on these files no longer have as much importance as they used to.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

This entire thread is completely hypothetical, and anyone who believes in the slightest this change might legitimately occur seems a bit naive to me.

Had a moderately long post in response to psychoangel, but of course FF crashed. Time to write some of it again...



I already mentioned I wasn't opposed to this idea, but you wrote it off as stupid merely because the files are a part of FFR's history, which is a pretty silly reason. I very much enjoy the idea that FFR's files could be constantly reevaluated and improved over time actually.



If you find legacy files fun, that is perfectly fine, but don't tell me you can say these files are not off-sync and a pretty bad rhythmical representation of the music they are supposed to express. This is the key issue I have with these files, this is a rhythm game, and if the arrows aren't going to follow the beat of the song pretty much precisely, what is even the point? I love dump files to no end, but you wouldn't see me defending them being worthy of actually representing the music they are attached to, or want to have them in game for that matter. The same rule applies for things like the legacy files (or any file when you get down to it). If you find me legacy files that are completely accurately synced, then I'm cool with those, and I would throw the same fate I want on the majority of legacy files (out of public ranks) on any file that was an off-sync mess.

Also, it's a bit silly to berate me for suggesting to get off sync files out of public ranks (the ones people generally are interested in improving) when we are playing a rhythm game. It is also a bit silly to pretty much shut down a suggestion because of a "what if" with people who are not voicing their opinions where we can all see them. If we focused on the what if possibility that heavily, nothing would ever get done. If people are not voicing their opinions, either they don't care enough to oppose or defend the topic at hand, or they just don't know about the fact it's being discussed in the first place. As for the latter, that is too bad, but we can't hang up on stuff like that, because there is no way to rectify this situation really.

Read back to prior posts with paperclip and such cause a lot of the stuff you mentioned here I already said something about. You also replied to me based on something I replied to paperclip about and not you, I didn't write something off as stupid only because of history I've brought up a few reasons I don't like the idea and even offered other ideas which people haven't bothered to address.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Absolutely not -- and this is the basis of statistics; you cannot legitimately say that a small size will be reflective of a larger sampling size in this instance.

There's a large uncertainty, definitely. But you can't name me a different way of deciding things. Since there is a decision that needs to be made ("legacy stays public VS legacy goes in seperate ranking") then the outcome should be whatever is voted most. Isn't that the point of polls and elections? The ones who vote represent the whole population's voice. The fact that only a very small fraction of the whole FFR userbase votes in this thread makes the uncertainty higher, but nonetheless, the decision needs to be made.

Let's refer to the old quote: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Except many people, including me, seem to think it is broke and needs fixing.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Ok -- what issue do the files have now that they didn't have in the however long they weren't addressed? No one seemed to have anything to say about legacy files a few years ago, even though they were dated 7-8 years. All of a sudden, one person makes a statement, and everyone bandwagons the same idea, when there are certainly more reasons as to why they can be removed (and believe me, I have a number of other reasons I can say, but won't for the sake of more bandwagoning).

For the record, I am someone that has reasons for advocating the removal of legacy files from ranks as well as someone that has reasons for preventing the removal. The active community is far too small compared to those who actually play the game regularly to dictate a decision pertaining to the removal/moving of a large number of files.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

I mentioned before but I'm not sure if people just didn't notice it with the other stuff or they just didn't care to address it so I'm going to put it on it's own.

I made a couple suggestions but I personally like the most and would actually like to see if we're going to have all these different ranks that we have a public, token, skill token, legacy and whatever else that would make people happy but then still have an overall ranking for all of these collectively. Basically to show your completion of the game in it's entirety. You can be the best at any of the sections and you can be the best overall. And all these ranks should be displayable. I hate that token ranks are practically non-existent publicaly, it makes that part of the game less appealing to me.

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Also, AJ, I feel as though, so long as reasonable argumentation and civil discussion is held up, and there's no agreement, the discussion is not "pointless" or "shouldn't have been brought up". It apparently did need to be brought up otherwise we wouldn't be posting.

The argument "it hasn't been brought up before" is not a constructive argument whatsoever. It is no reason to not act now that people are voicing their opinions. If you're going to dismiss people's thoughts simply because they didn't say them right away like 8 years ago, that is incredibly... illogical and strange, to say the least.

The only objective point of argument is actually in favor for those who want it removed, and that is relating to the fact that the files are inferior in quality (and were unavoidably so). Counter-argument to this is that file removal detrimentally affects rank when it absolutely doesn't need to be, both of which are highly objective points and DO directly affect players in a large quantity.

If you remove the files and put them in their level ranks, the counter-argument is that the scores on these files no longer have as much importance as they used to.

Everything in this seems correct and such, but the underlined stands out. Wait what? I can see objective reasoning for letting the files stay public, too. It's just that I personally believe the reasoning for making them go (to a seperate ranking) is much stronger, haha.

It's a case of which cons and pros weigh the most, and if most people seem to agree that solution x is the most beneficial, it's no more than reasonable to say that that plan should be executed. Basic principle of democracy.

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

They're fine where they are. If you are committed enough to the game to where you are worrying about your ranks, you should be able to tackle any song no matter what their condition is. If you aren't committed to your ranks then its simple, don't play them. Not all the songs are going to be perfect nor to ones liking. There are plenty of newer songs I find unbearable to play because of how over layered they are, stepping to sounds you cant hear while playing, etc. There are so many files these days stepped to the point where you don't even feel like you are playing anything related to the music, you might as well be playing a legacy charts because that's what it feels like at times.

The legacy genre also has a fair amount of easy songs. Idk about anyone else, but everyone irl I have introduced to this game didn't give two shits about the chart being synced to the music, being colored, bg's, etc. They were playing for the fact they were playing. As long as there was music and they were hitting arrows, trying to hit them all, they could careless about the chart itself. Hell some of the people I got playing for a bit, a good chunk of their go to songs were legacy charts. You cant just assume these kind of charts aren't going to suite new players.

Im sure there is more I could give my thoughts on, but too lazy type a response to the many issues within this topic. It wouldn't bother me if they went to their own ranks, I just don't see an issue with them where they are now. Completely removing them is just not an option, sorry.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

They're fine where they are. If you are committed enough to the game to where you are worrying about your ranks, you should be able to tackle any song no matter what their condition is. If you aren't committed to your ranks then its simple, don't play them. Not all the songs are going to be perfect nor to ones liking. There are plenty of newer songs I find unbearable to play because of how over layered they are, stepping to sounds you cant hear while playing, etc. There are so many files these days stepped to the point where you don't even feel like you are playing anything related to the music, you might as well be playing a legacy charts because that's what it feels like at times.

The legacy genre also has a fair amount of easy songs. Idk about anyone else, but everyone irl I have introduced to this game didn't give two shits about the chart being synced to the music, being colored, bg's, etc. They were playing for the fact they were playing. As long as there was music and they were hitting arrows, trying to hit them all, they could careless about the chart itself. Hell some of the people I got playing for a bit, a good chunk of their go to songs were legacy charts. You cant just assume these kind of charts aren't going to suite new players.

You said everything I wanted to say here but couldn't get out right because I suck lol.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

If you remove the files and put them in their level ranks, the counter-argument is that the scores on these files no longer have as much importance as they used to.

I don't see the problem with this. If we look at history (as this is obviously a conversation involving the future of FFR) we can see that many things have been phased out as newer stuff has come out. Sure we still look at things like the medieval longsword and think those things were cool in their own way, but do we strap our men up with them?

To put it into other words, the Legacy files are a thing of the past, and no matter how painstaking it was to create (rather crappy, embarrassing) files in notepad, nobody even bothers with this anymore.

on a personal note: would I keep up the first profile I ever made because of Nostalgia? I have that thing sitting away in storage so I can pull it out with fond memories. I'm constantly improving my skill and changing things up. Just as FFR does. I think we need to put the Legacy files in the closet for a rainy day, so we can look on them with fond memories as we do now.

People, this isn't 2006. This is 2013, and this is our FFR. We shouldn't be holding reservations for the ideals of past Simfile Artists if they aren't present to speak up for them. In fact, this is the best way to honour their memory, because if we are making progress and becoming a better community based on what they have done, then they are already proud. I'm sure Hyrogashi and Synthlight and other people who made the legacy files (and the other files in question) wouldn't want to see us quarreling like this over files they are (like the mistakes you make when you're improving) embarrassed about. Time marches on. Changes are made with it.

sorry for the wall of text guys!

[PaperclipGames]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

@Plan_Bsk: That was a way more constructive and nice to read post. It's clear by now that I personally disagree on this, but at least your opinion sounds decently thought out. ^^

My main point around all the off-topic chatter can be summarized as "we should do what the majority wants". Which leans to putting Legacy (and as far as I'm concerned other poorly synced files as well) in a seperate ranking -- but if the popular opinion was against mine and the majority wanted the files to stay as they are, then that's simply what should happen.

[psychoangel691]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Gee if FFR is a democracy now can we finally have a voting system on files that go to the batch rather than the current judgement system that most people complain about every time there's a batch?

[noname219]

Re: Should the Legacy genre no longer count towards public ranks?

Just gonna re-quote myself because I want to know people's opinion on this :

Public levelranks : All the songs minus legacy, secret, tokens, skill tokens and purchased... and Crowpleaser :P
Hidden levelranks* : Legacy, secret, tokens, skill tokens, purchased
Global levelranks* : Everything

* if the player hasn't unlocked a song, it shouldn't affect his levelranks

Public levelranks : to be used when determining the skill of the player
Global levelranks : to be used when determining the dedication of the player