On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

[flashflash account]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

thanks for that insight bugkid, new players are always appreciated by the community even if it's not always apparent

[bugkid666]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Oh piss off. Not contributing is wolfy on FFR and at best anti-town everywhere else

You're doing jack all and Bug flipped from being meek and unsure to cocky and unhelpful on a dime the fucking moment Haku gave him an out. I don't want to hear your shit about how that isn't wolf behavior

We're at the point were you going "uh-huh, no you" is becoming the most you've done next to that near OMGUS vote on Xiz.

this is the quote that funnygurl and I were referring to btw sorry I didn't quote it directly above

[bugkid666]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

ok i've read through this whole thread now (was avoiding it for obvious reasons) but I feel that i'm somewhat responsible for replying at some point.

first thing I want to say is that i'm honestly really uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of this thread has been focused on three people "attacking" me specifically when I really didn't see it that way. from my perspective, I wasn't personally hurt by the things people said to me during the game, most of it just felt completely unnecessary to playing the game. like mml's post that fg is referencing in this:

it didn't take me too long to find this

someone calling me cocky and unhelpful when i'm dipping my toes in the water would hurt my feelings

** actual quote posted below **

like why would you think saying something like this to anyone would encourage them to.... "play better" ?? that kind of logic is so beyond me that I don't know where to start, like... at the end of the day we're here to play a game right? figure out who the werewolf is or win as werewolf. if you're not being productive in doing that, it's not necessary. i'm not saying we have to be talking about only the game in strict terms all the time bc that's not what makes the game fun. but berating somebody for being an idiot doesn't help your game or mine so why bother?

Also maybe this is me taking it too personal but if I'm more toxic again what even does that word mean anyway then any other player it's probably 95% because I actually have a decent post volume and everyone else is slanking. Bug's flip from unsure newbie to arrogance the moment he got cleared would be considered toxic to some people but since he spent the game largely not playing it until the last phase nobody is going to really care.

this is by far the worst take i've seen this entire thread. if you're so put off by someone literally learning how to play the game then why on earth would you play it? I straight up mentioned in the beginning that I was very unclear about how the game operated so my logic may be confusing/i may be dumb at times so god forbid I actually make progress in trying to learn.

it's also really funny to me that you interpreted me refusing to engage with your unproductive insults as me being cocky. it's actually not funny, it's really sad. had you ever considered that you weren't saying anything useful? because you weren't. you were constantly calling me an idiot saying my gameplay sucks and that I should try harder. why is that helpful to the game at all? I was never personally offended at the things anyone had to say to me, and i'm confused as to why people seem to think that's the issue at hand. the issue isn't emotions attached to the game, the issue is that half of you seem to think there isn't an issue in the first place.

these are just some things I really agreed with and think should be addressed more:

The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

if you think there isn't an issue, then just go ahead and read the following exchange:

I think you didn't understand my post, like at all.

I've attempted to respond to this nicely like 50X, and I just can't

you literally cannot post more than like a fucking infant like that

you can't

You're fucking kidding right?

Is everyone here five? Two? How old is everyone? Maybe fresh out?

That's what it feels like.

How can no one read those posts and understand the amount of intentionally blowing it out of proportion for effect those posts are? It's not toxic, it's hyperbole.

I thought reading between the lines was a game mechanic, apparently everyone here is shockingly shit at it.

An actual pity imho.

that post is exactly the sort of thing we need less of, thank you for being an example of how not to behave

the real pity is that you're saying stuff like this outside of a twg thread.

you may still be living in the internet age of toxicity and cynicism being king, but there's something nice about being able to show people respect and kindness.

I think after collecting my thoughts, the clearest thing that I can say is - why does your TWG play and identity need to be based off of insulting and offending people, in a game of problem solving

I think we can rule out the idea that anyone wants straight up censorship, that's not productive at all and honestly that can potentially be really detrimental to the community at large. what I think would be productive is people asking themselves "is this productive for the game" because if it isn't, ask yourself why you're saying it in the first place.

for example, lewdy and raeko's banter towards each other never felt toxic to me. you can tell they're close friends just trying to get a rise out of each other and I don't really see anything wrong with that. what I do take issue with is people (because it was NOT just me) genuinely trying to be helpful and then people calling them an idiot and unhelpful. I saw this happen to funnygurl over and over again throughout the game as well, and of course I don't want to speak for her but it made me upset seeing her trying to play the game only to have a bunch of people come at her saying she sucked.

I don't have any real final thoughts here, just figured i'd contribute somewhat. but don't fool yourself into thinking that this toxicity thread was made because 3 people "bullied" me. even as an outsider I can see that this issue has very little to do directly with the last twg.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

I'm sorry but your parents response is so adorable and I love it

[fatfuck42]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Adding a couple more mods sounds fine to me (and I'm cool with the names that've been suggested). I also like the reporting/tip-line feature too.

Outside of those more formal things, us being more proactive in telling people to chill out or letting them know they crossed a line would probably help out. I know in my own personal experience I've crossed lines that I would've remained oblivious to crossing had people not pointed it out to me. Also, I know I've seen posts where, were they directed at me, I would've told the person to relax, but since they weren't I just kept scrolling...but if we get like five people telling someone to chill, chances are they're gonna be more likely to chill.

Ultimately, this is a really complicated issue with no one-size-fits-all solution. We can only try out different arrangements and see if they bring us closer to where we wanna be.

[mellonxcollie]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

[_Zenith_]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

very same

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

not everyone uses discord or is in the server - sending a forum pm is probably easier

maybe sending a pm to all the mods in one message is the way to go? that way they can confer on what action to take, if any, get both sides of things, etc. it also helps prevent situations where one mod gets messaged and the other mods are out of the loop

[Funnygurl555]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i think it's in my best interest to step outta this thread for now

sorry if i hurt anyone's feelings with my posts-- i know I singled out a few of you here but it wasn't my intention to say that you're the problem

anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

[the sun fan]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Does this involve more memeing or less memeing?

I am serious about my Rias Gremory post.

I'm not sure if this is a meme question

Funny thing is that's happened.. a wolf actually committed seppuku in F3 because of the stress. Either that or it was a town.

Either way, watching the all Team Quebec F3 end that way was shocking, to say the least.

op was town that game

No ground is being made because the people who the thread is targeting are refusing to find fault in their ways and the people who recognise the problem aren’t able to identify a realistic solution.

I really echo what Makilaz has been suggesting, and agree a lot with what Roundbox posted as well.

Could it be as simple as disallowing personal insults? I’m sure there’s negatives to this too, but for sake of coming up with a tangible solution, I’ll start here I guess.

this thread was not made to target anyone
like I said before, almost everyone has been toxic on multiple occasions over the years
it just doesn't have to be this way and, moving forward, I'd like there to be a much lower amount of this

I feel like very little has been done in engaging with my post. Let me roll my sleeves up a bit

First, for those that did respond: thanks. FG, to answer your question, pointed and cutthroat play used to be the rule, not the exception. Over time, I feel like it's become the exception, not the rule of general player behaviour.

Now, can we try and engage some of the points I've made? I feel like things are moving forward without nearly any consideration of my contributions.
-We've agreed unanimously as a community when certain people are stepping far out of line
-Overt rudeness and harshness, I feel, has decreased
-As a previous offender, I pointed to my downward trend of spiciness. Deadchats, as they stand, are breeding grounds for personal attacks.
-Getting heated and emotional is anticipated in a longer game. How do we draw the line to moderate this? Is it even something we can define?
-Implicit bias controls the hierarchy of vote/read importance. There is a clear divide in newness/experience. Perceived skill/lack of skill. Male/female or other. As someone who occupies the beneficial side of all these equations, I look back on situations where I've not believed someone's read or taken as seriously as another due to some of these.

I don't know. That's really how I feel at this point. This whole thing just feels like decisions are being made in the background without too much being said in this thread. My understanding is that at least one person in the game had a bad time. Maybe this is wrong, but work with me here as I'm in the dark. There are absolutely, unequivocally, zero problems with someone having a problem with another user's behaviour. I've had chats with TWG mods about individual players, so I've been there. However, this was dealt with in private. Why this thread? It just feels like we're putting Lewdy, Lar, and Xel on display. Why not talk to them in private? Why does this have to be aired out here with people taking potshots and low blows?

The thread started off by proposing adding another mod. Now we're up to adding two more? Where did this come from? It seems like conversations going on outside of this thread are influencing decisions and not what's being discussed here. I feel like what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears.

-What is the idea moving forward? This is still not clear. I've only heard "more mods," but what specific aspects of behaviour or code of conduct content is being pondered?
-To achieve meaningful change, first, you must have acknowledgement. After that, you can discuss solutions. I don't feel like we've hit either of these stages.

I don't want FFR to die. Hell, I submitted a 13 player game to Freezin earlier. Please, someone, elucidate me.

I don't really know if its lower than it was before, i'm not really keeping track. If I had to guess, it would be lower than before but that doesn't mean that it can't get better (no one's saying otherwise, just felt like saying it)

I think that there ought to be some punishment for being toxic in a game, harsher for repeat offenders.

Why did I make this thread? its to begin the discussion, and to let people know that I am looking for TWG mods. Discord is great and all, but this is the place that the most people check and will actually read the large amount of words that people post, whereas discord is uh... not that

I knew there would be some drama to making this thread. I knew it, and I did it anyways because I think its important. Sometime in the future, there will be enforcement against toxicity, and this is to begin discussion about toxicity, as well as let people know what the future will eventually bring. I don't know the specifics. This thread was made partly to figure out the specifics. When the specifics are known, everyone will know. Firstly, I want to get two new mods to help moderate and provide input.

As for acknowledgement, I feel like there has been some. By posting in the thread, you've acknowledged it. Maybe I don't understand what you're saying here.

Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

good list

this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

probably warnings into bans is what i'm thinking. my goal is to make it kind of hard to get banned, warnings are usually sufficient enough.

twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

this brings up the point that I am least sure about; what to do when someone wants to make a complaint about toxicity. The official report post feature seems out of the equation to me, so maybe it'd have to involve PMing someone on discord?

would like some input/ideas here

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

tharu

[Funnygurl555]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

She saying some of y'all are being jerks to the folks being accused of being jerks.

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This post is brought to you by someone's interpretation, one of the silly things I mentioned previously in the thread! Hooray for interpretation!

thanks charu

[YoshL]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

yeah I think sunfan and maybe YoshL should weigh in here for sure

I do think having the ability to ban in a worst case Ontario is still a good idea so maybe a global mod?

or maybe a TWG subforum group that mods can kick people out of the group (this is what we have for tgb). but the problem with that is people have to apply/be added manually in order to be kicked out of the forum group

there's already a twg group but it stopped getting used ages ago and I think it's been forgotten about

having the ability to ban would be a very good thing, so if we don't outright get a gmod on the roster then having one on standby to help would be solid