On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

[Netjet!]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I've been reading this and the other thread a bit, and I think that getting heated is sometimes very beneficial to a game, but should it not be up to the moderators to police/manage behavior that goes past the line? I think the outcome of this is to have a team of multiple people who can moderate properly and come to independent conclusions so as to avoid favoritism. Spirit of the game should be kept up but when people cross the line and it starts to get meta then they step in to stop it.

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

[Funnygurl555]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

what

[mellonxcollie]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult

Some people can be really mean spirited but Lewdy is not one of those people. he just isn't. He just gets super into things and has big reactions

That's the difference between Lewdy and Lar. It's the same difficult to define characteristic of "I know it when I read it" but it is the intent and the intensity behind the words

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

so it's ok for shadowgod to make those kinds of posts but not mml

why?

further to this point making sure whatever method is used for working out problematic behavior is applied evenly to everyone is also super super important

a line will need to be drawn and certain people shouldn't be given extra leeway for whatever reason. if two people can make the exact same post and be treated differently for it then that's a problem that needs fixing

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I still think that overarching limiting rules about conduct won't ever give enough specified and nuanced coverage of the interactions that go on in TWG.

I'm still thinking that having just an outside player, whether it be a host or a mod outside of the game be able to take concerns about conduct privately. Optionally, the report post button can be used, mods (including twg mods) will be able to see those reports, and can be reviewed case-by-case

obviously we're never going to be able to list out every conceivable thing that is okay or not, that's impossible. having some sort of code of conduct that we can point to and go "hey don't be like this" is a very necessary thing to have

add a catch-all "don't be a dick and don't explicitly try to find loopholes" and we're good. it's kind of amazing we've gone this long without a CoC tbh

[Funnygurl555]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

so it's ok for shadowgod to make those kinds of posts but not mml

why?

[YoshL]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I still think that overarching limiting rules about conduct won't ever give enough specified and nuanced coverage of the interactions that go on in TWG.

I'm still thinking that having just an outside player, whether it be a host or a mod outside of the game be able to take concerns about conduct privately. Optionally, the report post button can be used, mods (including twg mods) will be able to see those reports, and can be reviewed case-by-case

[mellonxcollie]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

As for funnygurl's quotes on shadow, holy moly. I think Shadow did more insult flinging than MML this game. But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult even though I really should.

Same here. Lewdy is a very excitable person and just posts his unfiltered reactions to things

I legit want to beat you with a chair for this

Let me get this straight: You see two wagons going, Sunfan and WV

Your best play for that is voting YOURSELF?

does anybody really think Lewdy actually wants to beat Subs with a chair? or is this just his emotional reaction to Subs doing a silly play?

Some people can be really mean spirited but Lewdy is not one of those people. he just isn't. He just gets super into things and has big reactions

Maybe can we have a vote of people who actually think this is a problem vs who does not see it as a big deal? Because honestly I don't see a problem and I'm more worried about scaring people like Lewdy away than the few newbies we may occasionally get. I do wish that Bugkid would play again but they also said they didn't like the format of forum TWG so even if the game went differently, not everyone is going to be into this way of playing.

I agree with Roundbox in that I think we have improved a lot over the years.

[Makilaz]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

i've certainly been overly emotional in the past (good lord i'm ashamed of several year ago me) and i apologize to anyone affected by it

this game is intimidating enough to new players and it can be really difficult to get a foot in the door. anyone that doesn't hit the ground running and immediately produce dissertation-level reads list is dismissed out of hand at best and insulted at worst.

roundbox's post is good and i honestly don't have much to add to it. codifying what is allowable and what's not is important and i think any decisions and reasons for them would need to be public. this is not the sort of thing you can really moderate behind closed doors.

also i'd like to put my name in for consideration. i have a stupid amount of mod/admin experience on other communities and i've been in this one for a long-ass time. i love this place and want to see it continue to be the best damn twg/mafia community ever

[Charu]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

I'mm-a echo roundbox at his TL;DR and say read his posts. It's a large post, but it's a really good large post.

I'm currently suffering the consequences of sleeping really late to dabble on his points. Will probably try again later after I nap after work or something (if I nap).

...

As for funnygurl's quotes on shadow, holy moly. I think Shadow did more insult flinging than MML this game. But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult even though I really should.

Roundbox definitely on the right track here with his really good post.

[Hakulyte]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Yea regarding the snippet that funnygurl quoted

I joined this community less than a year ago and this was definitely the first thing i noticed. People would ridicule me or dismiss my reads that I put a lot of effort in, and the same people would comment stuff like ''xxx is town'' with absolutely no evidence, and it really threw me off at the start. Though I'm used to the culture now, I don't put nearly as much effort into my reads these days as, i think, a result of my first few games. The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

I will note that the condescending undertone has gotten a lot better. I found some people very condescending my first few games that seem to have stopped being so, so I think that is a positive thing, regardless of whether its to do with them or whether its to do with the fact that im not as new anymore and I've had some moments of proving myself

Oh, I remember that.
Honestly, your reads were so good in your first games that I thought only wolf you could have come up with them.
I was really shaken to see you flip town in one of the first ones.
Please realize the difference between posting quality content and people attempting to understand if that content is coming from a town player or not.

They're very different things. I believe you did the "reading part" as good as it could have been done. It's just that there's this 2nd mini game where you need to rally town together as a team.
That is honestly probably the hardest part in TWG. You can solve an entire game perfectly and still lose if people doesn't want to follow up on your reads.

You're more close than you think of being in a good spot to have these great games.
If you can practice shifting game momentum and talking to others to like get on your side while still have quality reads, you will not just win, but also MVP a game.

[Bolth mannn]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Yea regarding the snippet that funnygurl quoted

I joined this community less than a year ago and this was definitely the first thing i noticed. People would ridicule me or dismiss my reads that I put a lot of effort in, and the same people would comment stuff like ''xxx is town'' with absolutely no evidence, and it really threw me off at the start. Though I'm used to the culture now, I don't put nearly as much effort into my reads these days as, i think, a result of my first few games. The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

I will note that the condescending undertone has gotten a lot better. I found some people very condescending my first few games that seem to have stopped being so, so I think that is a positive thing, regardless of whether its to do with them or whether its to do with the fact that im not as new anymore and I've had some moments of proving myself

[Hakulyte]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

500 IQ suggestion.

Just be respectful, lol.
Wait... I already suggested that for moderation, nevermind

It's actually that simple, but the how is surprisingly more complex than it sounds.
The tricky part is that you need to be aware of what's affecting respect for everyone.
That is a colossal task because there's no way that I know perfectly how everyone thinks here and why.

This quickly convert into problems because I need to know what people needs in order to give it to them.
Entire games can deviate horribly if you force me to assume everything on my own.
Last game is a good example of that.

Most of the time, I have absolutely no clue how to make sense of how people post in this game.
What worked in the past, doesn't necessarily work anymore and it's pretty discouraging at times.

Even with the full information now that we are postgame, there's still things that doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I don't identify and understand them, I will probably keep getting wrong reads on players.

Toxicity is the consequence of something else. If you get through that something else, toxicity should go away.
I think that something else has to do with respect and trust over playing this game a long period of time.

So, I can echo on what Roundbox said.

[_Zenith_]

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

That snippet from Roundbox's post that Funny quotes deserves more attention because I feel nobody can deny that it happens a lot. Even in my own case and using myself as an example here, 99% of the time most of what I say isn't taken remotely seriously or looked at in and out of game, and I've been with you guys for years now. I'm not sure if it's because of how I was in the past, but in the POV of a new player if I noticed that I wasn't being noticed or taken seriously because I'm new (even if they're not new to Mafia) I wouldn't continue trying to play because it feels like there isn't a point.