Rates higher than 1.0 should record

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Despite this, the timing window remains the same size which does make songs "easier" at the cost of speed.

I think it'd be safe to say that this would only affect higher division players.

Mental stamina does come into play when considering these types of files

I don't think this is a very good point, as the majority of "these types of files" are simply not fun beyond possible nostalgia factor.

[___________]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

I don't think this is a very good point, as the majority of "these types of files" are simply not fun beyond possible nostalgia factor.

True, true.
If we're looking to attract more players, then yes, record rates. I'm all for it!

EDIT:

Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.

Actually, it's quite easy to rush the 8ths, which is why playing on rates might make it easier.

[PrawnSkunk]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Although rates make most files harder, there will be no more difficulty for the longer, easier files like Song for the Nihonjins, Visions (NRGyzd) and so on.

Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.

he's referencing what arc said about timing and how it would make files "easier"

synthlight files would be slightly easier. I personally don't think synthlight files should still be a part of levelranks but that's a completely different topic
however I will say that if someone thinks that playing through the synthlight files is some sort of "badge," i suggest they read up on the definition of a game

[YoshL]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

also, this was talked about before in the previous thread, but it's definitely been addressed by the higher skill-level players, i.e. AJ and such, where cheating patterns like the skeletor roll by having a higher rate is /not/ worth the speed trade off for the initial jumpstream section. In order to cheat the ending rolls, you'd need something like a 1.2x or so, but the jumpstream gets dumb, and even the roll gets stupidly fast, so it's still dumb. If you have the skill to AAA the file before the rolls on 1.2, then you're most likely already able to AAA the file on 1.0. This is just an example though

also choof has been giving stuff about mirror, arguably mirror makes many files much easier than rates would make them.

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

trade off was the term I was looking for, thanks

I can't think of any files where it would be worth the trade off to play at higher rates for a single section

[Fission]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

yes

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Sorry, I should know not to post when going on 19 hours awake with 4 hours of sleep, very rude of me, I apologize.

I will concede in 99.99% of situations, rates will make it harder, but its still the case that it usually requires an entirely different set of skills compared to the original file. It just seems weird and pointless to waste those scores on a system that barely credits you for them. All you really get out of it is the ability to shortcut your levelranks. If we're getting Raw Scoring with the site rework, would it be so hard to also figure out a system for rates scores? Maybe some sort of multiplier based on the rate so that assuming all AAA scores, the highest rate would be at the top of the leader board. I'll leave the exact math to someone more knowledgeable to which speed a 20g run is technically more impressive then an SDG. It would also be a good idea to limit it to multiples of 0.1x to avoid shenanigans.

If we want to ignore the other engines, then we might as well let them record for GTS and award credits. I mean you still have to push the buttons, if you are capable of playing at a higher speed for longer periods of time then someone else, why should you be held back. It certainly levels the playing field for gamewhore competitions without having to ban Vrofl. Also has the added benefit of a new time of contest, Vrofl speedrun, since it basically removes the minimum time required to gather that much GTS since you could spam as fast as your speed/stamina allow you.

As for mirror, I still say its going to make just as many songs harder as it would easier. And which songs it makes easier are entirely subjective, you might be better or worse at a certain pattern with one hand over the other (beyond just being left/right handed). But the difficulty of the song is the same generally speaking. I would say speed mods and scroll settings have a more universal effect on difficulty, but again its all subjective difficulty.

The point was that rates change what is challenging about a song, like mentioned before, mental stamina is just as much a skill as anything else. Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club, but you should still have to go back and do it if you want complete level ranks. Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club, but you should still have to go back and do it if you want complete level ranks. Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.

This is a decent way to look at it.

[leonid]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

It's like participating in 100m sprints with 50m sprint record with timer ticking twice as fast. I say no

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Sorry, I should know not to post when going on 19 hours awake with 4 hours of sleep, very rude of me, I apologize.

sweg

I will concede in 99.99% of situations, rates will make it harder, but its still the case that it usually requires an entirely different set of skills compared to the original file.

I would disagree. A file with rolls at a higher speed would require a higher ability to hit rolls. A file with jacks at a higher higher speed would require a higher ability to hit jacks.
Of course, at some point the rolls become jump trillable but like YoshL pointed out, the trade off won't ever be worth it.

It just seems weird and pointless to waste those scores on a system that barely credits you for them. All you really get out of it is the ability to shortcut your levelranks.

See, here's the part I have an issue with. "Shortcut your levelranks?" Both you and qqwref have alluded to this, and it really makes no sense. Grinding levelranks isn't fun. Not only that, but levelranks are a pretty arbitrary and flawed way to determine someone's skill level. Compare someone like Staiain to Hakulyte.

If we're getting Raw Scoring with the site rework, would it be so hard to also figure out a system for rates scores? Maybe some sort of multiplier based on the rate so that assuming all AAA scores, the highest rate would be at the top of the leader board.

I think this would be a bad idea. I wouldn't want an "achieved on x rate" next to a score on the leaderboards.

I'll leave the exact math to someone more knowledgeable to which speed a 20g run is technically more impressive then an SDG.

This is totally subjective, and would probably be impossible to implement.

It would also be a good idea to limit it to multiples of 0.1x to avoid shenanigans.

If rates were shown on leaderboards, I'd agree.

As for mirror, I still say its going to make just as many songs harder as it would easier. And which songs it makes easier are entirely subjective, you might be better or worse at a certain pattern with one hand over the other (beyond just being left/right handed). But the difficulty of the song is the same generally speaking. I would say speed mods and scroll settings have a more universal effect on difficulty, but again its all subjective difficulty.

The issue with mirror is that the vast majority of people use mirror to make a file easier. Example: Hardkore Atomic.

The point was that rates change what is challenging about a song, like mentioned before, mental stamina is just as much a skill as anything else.

What's meant by "mental stamina?" Blue Rose requires mental stamina. White Walls requires mental stamina. World Tour 2004 requires mental stamina. Synthlight files require that you suffer through a file with terrible sync and profanities should you happen to blink and get a good. That's not fun. That's frustrating.

Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club

I know what you're trying to get at here but it doesn't relate to rates.

Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.

If we were expected to play it like the author intended, then why are rates in the game in the first play? Players still have a choice to play the file at normal speed.

It's like participating in 100m sprints with 50m sprint record with timer ticking twice as fast. I say no

This analogy would fit if FFR was a contest 24/7. During Officials, I definitely agree that rate scores shouldn't count. Not for any particular reason, only because of the "spirit of competition." Or something.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

What are the arguments as to why rates should be allowed on the leaderboard?

[YoshL]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

because it makes ffr fun for people who want to go through level ranks, and gives incentive to play easier songs.

it makes ffr more fun for those people, and doesn't make it any less fun for anyone else.

[Hakulyte]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

If I play something like For FFR ending and throw some higher rates on, can I jumptrill AAA more easily because the framers are closer at higher speedmod?

[YoshL]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

If I play something like For FFR ending and throw some higher rates on, can I jumptrill AAA more easily because the framers are closer at higher speedmod?

tested, i can cheat the final roll starting at about 1.3x. however, the splitroll transition into the 4321 gets even more shitty as fuck, and i drop 10+ goods and like 5+ averages each time (this is through isolation)

edit:

and there's still like, 230~ish bpm stream if you play it on 1.3, which is not entirely fun.

for the rating of file that it is (67), and comparing it to some other stuff, like gacha radio, JULIAN, Oops, etc.
if you can hit the 230 bpm stuff and AAA it, then you can (in theory) also AAA the rest of the file on 1.0x, but the file has the dumb rolls at the end. comparitively, extratone pirates is slower than for ffr on 1.3

edit2:
from my understanding, it takes like, the ms placement and squishes that together for rates, so you would be able to jumptrill "cheat" things easier on rates (i completely ignored the initial question sorry haku)