Rates higher than 1.0 should record

[Devilchilly]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

These are the advantages of higher than 1.0 rates:
- Makes some songs more fun
- Fast speed training
- Adds more fun
- Less suffering and waiting for AAA's on long songs.
- Some others.
And some disadvantage:
- Sometimes could lag your FFR game.
- AAA'ing with a rate of 1.0x while others could have AAA'd the same song at >1.0x
- Others that I can't think.
Out of all, I would say, 80% yes and 20% no = yes.

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

[XCV]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

I don't think I ever asked about this, but I've wondered - is AS3 not compatible with everything? What's going on there?

And if so, can't we just retrofit all these wonderful things to Velo?

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3.
This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

This is why I explicitly said that rates below 1.0 don't count for scoring, and the grandtotal divided by rate.

[dAnceguy117]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements.

this logic would dictate that R^3 should be disallowed altogether because no one on Velo or Legacy can increase the amount of scroll space or raise the FPS setting.

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

this logic would dictate that R^3 should be disallowed altogether because no one on Velo or Legacy can increase the amount of scroll space or raise the FPS setting.

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

Inputs are the same. the only legal modifier is mirror because it leaves the patterns intact and just flips the L/R bias. Doesn't matter if you play vanilla or 5.0 w/dizzy blind dark tornado, same inputs.

Why should someone vibrojacking a midrange song on high rates be putting up scores against newer players trying to just fc it normally? This is pointless without a seperate rates scoreboard because you cant even post leaderboard scores for songs you've already done, unless your implying you can play better at 1.3x vs 1.0. And how do you seperate those scores? Do we need 20 per song in 0.1 increments? It just doesnt work. Just save the replay and post in an appropriate thread.

Would be nice to get credits for playing rates though.

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

I'm voting yes and here's why (along with some bias maybe)

1) I did put a lot of time into whoring through every single song on ffr, but if rates recorded and they actually were a thing at the time I would have played through all the easier songs on a rate.

2) It technically is an even playing field for everyone still. Everyone has access to play the files on rates. If they have a shitty computer that's their problem.

3) Rates are fun and you should be rewarded for having fun. It's a video game afterall.

4) (time to tread murky waters) What about when they fixed that avmiss or whatever? It's not fair that we can hit jacks and stuff now when a long time ago someone who doesn't play anymore couldn't. Same with new noteskins, speed boost, etc. It's good for this game to change as long as everyone still has fun. and besides it's just an option afterall.

5) There's only a handful of files that have a pattern in them that will be easier that are easy enough everywhere else as well that this would effect. And either way you won't get it in 1 go, you still would whore for it whether it be on 1.0 or 1.1 rate if you're going for the AAA


The only way I see this not being fair is to the people that have already worked really hard on their level stats and grandtotal, but since I'm fairly high on the leader board I think it's fair for me to say this would be a positive addition to the game that might even be attractive to players from stepmania or other games. And as I mentioned earlier I would have used rates to AAA easy/long files if I had the chance. I have the skill to do it, so why shouldn't I be rewarded?

[dAnceguy117]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

to what extent does using a higher rate than 1.0 change the file?

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

Inputs are the same.

a file on 1.2 has the same inputs as the same file on 1.0

the only legal modifier is mirror because it leaves the patterns intact and just flips the L/R bias.

how can you equate "flips the L/R bias" to "leaves the patterns intact" lol

Why should someone vibrojacking a midrange song on high rates be putting up scores against newer players trying to just fc it normally?

you don't think an AAA on 1.2 is better than a FC on 1.0? this is why on the leaderboards, rates used to achieve scores shouldn't be indicated

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

@etienne the top ten wont all be replaced like you think, remember combo is a big factor in scoring, and people miss more on rates.

It would be interesting to see 2bil in a day though if someone combo'd Vs Boss Battle on 1.2 all day (or ehhs)

I don't think it would have a substantial impact on the value of a credit, and I think it would only make it slightly easier to get credits

[cedolad]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

3) Rates are fun and you should be rewarded for having fun. It's a video game afterall.

/thread

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

a file on 1.2 has the same inputs as the same file on 1.0

TIL 200 bpm jumpstream requires same button presses/timing as 240 bpm. (you know what the fuck i meant)

how can you equate "flips the L/R bias" to "leaves the patterns intact" lol

flipping a roll from 4321 to 1234 FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE.THIS IS PRACTICALLY A V2. Oh shit this isnt god damn pitch relevant, its backwards.

rates makes things jump trilllable and can cause ridiculous jacks... mirror doesnt make anything go universally easier, you still have to hit that trill/jack/anchor at the same speed. If a file is side biased (mama) you can only level the playing field between left/right handed people, the bias is still there.

you don't think an AAA on 1.2 is better than a FC on 1.0? this is why on the leaderboards, rates used to achieve scores shouldn't be indicated

vertex/delerium/etc gamma/delta/etc different files. If you cant AAA a 15minute 100 bpm 16th stream, why should you get credit for it by doing a 7.5/200/16. Different skill requirements. My reality AAA didnt fill out my 1-78 level ranks.


I pushed for this shit back in the last official and it was made very clear as to why it wasnt going to happen. But feel free to selectively read this post and twist the words to what you need them to mean as to continue with these great "counter-arguments". I'm done here

[arcnmx]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

I would agree, but it gives people on R^3 and advantage because none of the other engines can support rates. Some people can't use it due to compatibility issues.

I disagree with this argument because it's very stifling. Legacy engines are going to become unsupported / disappear (as in from being easily accessible, no, I don't mean they'll be removed) at some point, and should not be considered the gold standard when that happens. Viewpoints like "it's not fair because everyone had to do it the old way before" and "legacy users can't benefit from these changes" are just going to keep the site from progressing into something more modern.

the nice thing about rates is that patterns stay the same

Despite this, the timing window remains the same size which does make songs "easier" at the cost of speed. Scaling the timing windows proportionate to the rate would probably alleviate everyone's concerns about rates making certain songs easier through cheating/jumptrilling/whatever, but would also make everything on rates hard as hell to PA.

No credits no GTS, and then yes I agree

A lot of people in the old thread wanted the flipside of this: rate scores don't record, but still grant GTS and credits.

Playing on rate certainly makes patterns play differently, especially because of the 30 fps-ness.

Songs on rates are scaled exactly to the rate in ms timing, so the resulting sped-up charts aren't locked to 30fps frames. Pattern structure/timing therefore doesn't change at all from the original, as the notes aren't getting re-framed.

[choof]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

TIL 200 bpm jumpstream requires same button presses/timing as 240 bpm. (you know what the fuck i meant)

I'm on linux right now so I can't give you screenshots so bear with me


let's take this simple jumpstream pattern:
1100
0010
0101
1000
0011

at 200 bpm and at 240 bpm, it would, quite literally, be the same exact pattern

as opposed to playing on mirror, which would cause the jumpstream pattern to be
0011
0100
1010
0001
1100

if you'd like, I can show you a number of ways why these aren't the same patterns

flipping a roll from 4321 to 1234 FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE.THIS IS PRACTICALLY A V2. Oh shit this isnt god damn pitch relevant, its backwards.

don't be a dick, rolls aren't the only patterns that are change. technically, all patterns are changed by mirror. except quads.

rates makes things jump trilllable

really, this is irrelevant. a lot of people jump trill rolls already. and, as we've already covered, it will also make the rest of the file harder. rates don't apply to a single section of a chart, they apply to the entire chart

and can cause ridiculous jacks...

this doesn't help your case

vertex/delerium/etc gamma/delta/etc different files. If you cant AAA a 15minute 100 bpm 16th stream, why should you get credit for it by doing a 7.5/200/16.

if you're implying what I think you are, then you are seriously not understanding how rates work lol. if you can AAA 7.5 minutes of 200bpm 16th stream, you most definitely show that you are capable of an AAA on 15 minutes of 100bpm 16th stream.

Different skill requirements. My reality AAA didnt fill out my 1-78 level ranks.

how this relevant at all lol

I pushed for this shit back in the last official and it was made very clear as to why it wasnt going to happen. But feel free to selectively read this post and twist the words to what you need them to mean as to continue with these great "counter-arguments". I'm done here

I haven't selectively read a single post in this thread, I've replyed to all points made against rate scores. stop being a dickhead

[___________]

Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

I'm going to vote no for this. Although rates make most files harder, there will be no more difficulty for the longer, easier files like Song for the Nihonjins, Visions (NRGyzd) and so on. Mental stamina does come into play when considering these types of files; it's probably the reason why DSoK [Heavy] is an FMO.