Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

Um, of course. What else would we be discussing in this topic? Whether or not it was actually illegal or not? Obviously it was, or else there wouldn't have been any problem. I thought the whole POINT was a discussion of the legitimacy, or lackthereof, of the details of the law that caused this situation.

...

Also, I discuss it here because I like discussing it, whether or not I'm "qualified" to discuss it. I honestly don't care enough about the issue to go try to change something, either.

Then this discussion is pretty damn stupid, because none of what any of us say or think is going to have any bearing on this part of the legal system for the next decade. You're basically talking to hear yourself.

I don't recall asking anything like "But why?". Where'd you get that from?

It's a generalization of your stance. "But why?" expands to "But why are the laws this way? Why aren't they some other way?"

A maturity quotient test?

Easier said than done. How would you define maturity objectively, and how would you set up a test that gives back an accurate response 100% of the time?

[meiloyn]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

Easier said than done. How would you define maturity objectively, and how would you set up a test that gives back an accurate response 100% of the time?

There are many different kinds of maturity. Sexual maturity, intellectual maturity, physical maturity and others.

No test would be 100% accurate, that's just the way it is. We simply have to do the best we can.

I don't really know, but I'll try.

* For sexual maturity, have someone look at increasingly sexual images and record the way the test taker responds, and an examiner talks with the person about sexual subjects, and records what the test taker says. This should probably more preferrably be tested on older teenagers.

* For intellectual maturity, an IQ test and maybe a debate will do.

* Physical maturity may be a physical examination of the body. This one should be pretty easy.

* Social Maturity. Since I'm mildly autistic, I don't know too much about socializing and socializing properly. I guess as long as people aren't obviously rude it's fine if they don't make eye contact or not. But how would you test rudeness in a person?

* Emotional maturity. I'm not very knowledgable in psychology, so I would leave that decision up to someone else.

* Educational maturity. Meeting or rising above the expectations of educational progress for the test taker's age.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

- How would you quantify responses to several of those as "right" or wrong"? A couple of them are pretty obvious like the IQ test, but what merits an objectively positive response to a question on a social maturity test?
- How would you objectively rank the tests in order of priority (i.e. which ones mean more than the others)? What would the magnitudes of priority be? Why would they be the correct rankings and priorities?
- Where would the funding for such a project come from? At the very least, you would need to build and maintain testing facilities and train test administrators. And what about the amount of time tests would take?

[lord_carbo]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

What?

They were allowed to legally have sex with themselves, but if they photographed it, they'd go to jail, even if no one even saw the photo. You don't think that's stupid?

If nobody saw the photos, then they wouldn't have been busted, unless they were stupid enough go around bragging that they took those pictures and got busted for what they said, then they kinda deserve what's coming to them.

It's like stealing... if nobody sees you steal a cookie from a cookie jar (and nobody is keeping track of how many there are in the jar, for the sake of the comparison), then you won't get busted for it. They were obviously stupid enough to let this slip in some sort of form. (Oh, FA beat me to it already, but he said that before Afro said that.)

I can't believe you guys are arguing against Kilga and Guido. Go away, child predators.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

What?

They were allowed to legally have sex with themselves, but if they photographed it, they'd go to jail, even if no one even saw the photo. You don't think that's stupid?

Hands up who lives in Florida?
















I thought so.
It IS illegal to have sex when your under 18. I know, once a couple who were 17 made love and then the girl sued, saying he did it and he was under aged. Of course, she said he raped her. Legally, he did, cuz she's not allowed to allow him


lol SHE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!

And Im with Guido on THIS one!

[meiloyn]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

- How would you quantify responses to several of those as "right" or wrong"? A couple of them are pretty obvious like the IQ test, but what merits an objectively positive response to a question on a social maturity test?
- How would you objectively rank the tests in order of priority (i.e. which ones mean more than the others)? What would the magnitudes of priority be? Why would they be the correct rankings and priorities?
- Where would the funding for such a project come from? At the very least, you would need to build and maintain testing facilities and train test administrators. And what about the amount of time tests would take?

Like I said, I'm not good at socialising. There would be no "right" answer, just a wrong answer. And the wrong answer is to be rude and largely unlikeable. Socialising just can't be objectified for the sake of all people.

I'd say Physical, Intellectual and Educational should be the most important. The real rankings would be very blurry. Each person would have their own views on what ranking is the most important.

Funding and training. Since I know almost nothing about this kind of thing, I won't try to answer this.

The tests may take a while, but it might be preferred to take them at different times so your mind would naturally reset itself and switch out of the testing gears. How long does a psychological diagnosis take? (Don't ask me, I was diagnosed with Asperger around 7 without me knowing I was diagnosed.)

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

I'm glad you realize how subjective your maturity quotient test is.

The reason the age bar is used is because it's the best combination of accuracy and feasibility. Age is easily quantified, easily kept track of, and, as scientists have showed us, is good as a general rule of thumb. A maturity quotient test is a wonderful idea in theory, and if someone could find a feasable and objective implementation of it I'm sure they government would be glad to use it. The problem is that it's basically impossible to do such a thing.

Sure, the age bar isn't perfect, but it's the best we have.

Not that such means anyone has to like it.

[meiloyn]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

I'm glad you realize how subjective your maturity quotient test is.

The reason the age bar is used is because it's the best combination of accuracy and feasibility. Age is easily quantified, easily kept track of, and, as scientists have showed us, is good as a general rule of thumb. A maturity quotient test is a wonderful idea in theory, and if someone could find a feasable and objective implementation of it I'm sure they government would be glad to use it. The problem is that it's basically impossible to do such a thing.

Sure, the age bar isn't perfect, but it's the best we have.

Not that such means anyone has to like it.

I always have subjective ideas. Since I never take my comic ideas off the ground anyway, I don't bother trying to take anything else off the ground. I can't physically create any of my ideas and bring them into reality. So I could come up with impossible ideas very easily.

You are right. The age bar is a rather good replacement for the maturity quotient test, even if it does outrule people who mature earlier.

But of course, every idea has its problems.

[SatanHatesYu]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

So I could go to jail because of the "tape" I made with my ex when I was 16? Wow.. I'd been thinking of distroying that befor.. now I realy shuld. The laws of amerikkkia realy disturbe me..

[Afrobean]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

As long as you can keep something completely under wraps you're not going to get in trouble for it. Clearly someone other than those involved saw the photo, which is why law enforcement stepped it.

A variation on the "it's not illegal unless you get caught" mentality? This seems to be more of a "it's illegal but no one cares unless you get caught." What those of us who say this is ridiculous are saying is that it should be "It should be legal for them to photograph THEMSELF." The whole purpose of laws against child pornography are to protect CHILDREN (last I checked, 16 and 17 year olds are not even CHILDREN, even if they're bunched into the same title of "minor" by the law). To enforce a law against production of "child" pornography when it was the "child" themself who produced it, doesn't make sense when you look at it that way (that is, from the point of view that CP is illegal because production of cp is HEAVILY damaging to the child's emotional and psychological development). How is it that photographing yourself is emotionally or psychologically disturbing? That really is the same as saying that any minor who masturbates could be jailed for molesting a minor (even though that minor was themself). The only way it makes sense is if you're going to go with the "they're too immature to make reasonable decisions about their own life", in which case, the same could be argued about the majority of people, even adults. Should we put people in jail for buying lottery tickets because it's a bad idea? Should we put people in jail for not going to any sort of post secondary educational system? Should we put people in jail for photographing themselves? How can this sound reasonable to any of you?

ps the whole "well they should have been more careful" thing is pretty stupid. Some things can be found no matter how well you hide them. What probably happened is the male's parents were checking the Internet history and came upon some dirty photos which happened to be of his girlfriend.

pps who has jp007 send to police right now please

[Shashakiro]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

Then this discussion is pretty damn stupid, because none of what any of us say or think is going to have any bearing on this part of the legal system for the next decade. You're basically talking to hear yourself.

I'm talking to have others hear me. It's what most talking accomplishes.

And if discussions that don't change anything are "pretty damn stupid", then pretty much 99.99% of all discussions ever held anywhere are "pretty damn stupid". Since when was the only point of talking to change things?

It's a generalization of your stance. "But why?" expands to "But why are the laws this way? Why aren't they some other way?"

My stance is more "The existing law is stupid" than "Why is the existing law the way it is?". I don't really care what was going through the heads of whoever made the law the way it is, but I do think that whoever wrote it, if they meant it to be enforced this way (getting punished for taking pictures of yourself), then they were writing a stupid law.

Also, I agree with Afro's post.

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

*Makes Sense*

wow, Im with Afro here.

[Kilgamayan]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

A variation on the "it's not illegal unless you get caught" mentality? This seems to be more of a "it's illegal but no one cares unless you get caught."

No, my mentality is "It's illegal, but if you don't get caught you won't be punished." Obviously no one will care if you don't get caught, because no one will know enough to care.

What those of us who say this is ridiculous are saying is that it should be "It should be legal for them to photograph THEMSELF." The whole purpose of laws against child pornography are to protect CHILDREN (last I checked, 16 and 17 year olds are not even CHILDREN, even if they're bunched into the same title of "minor" by the law). To enforce a law against production of "child" pornography when it was the "child" themself who produced it, doesn't make sense when you look at it that way (that is, from the point of view that CP is illegal because production of cp is HEAVILY damaging to the child's emotional and psychological development). How is it that photographing yourself is emotionally or psychologically disturbing? That really is the same as saying that any minor who masturbates could be jailed for molesting a minor (even though that minor was themself).

Who knows what would have happened if the pictures had gone further public? How do you know the idea of thousands of pedophiles jerking it to those images would not have damaged the mentalities of these kids? Obviously I don't know it would have, but the "better safe than sorry" assumption kicks in and errs on the side of caution. Besides, look at what happened. This is probably the first time this has ever happened, and, as Kefit pointed out, they got a slap on the wrist. Is that such a heinous act that the law is instantly a failure and requires immediate changing even though this situation has never come up before?

The only way it makes sense is if you're going to go with the "they're too immature to make reasonable decisions about their own life", in which case, the same could be argued about the majority of people, even adults. Should we put people in jail for buying lottery tickets because it's a bad idea? Should we put people in jail for not going to any sort of post secondary educational system? Should we put people in jail for photographing themselves? How can this sound reasonable to any of you?

Is buying lottery tickets illegal? No. Is not going to college illegal? No. Is photographing yourself illegal? Not inherently. Is distributing child pornography illegal? Yes.

One of these things is not like the other.

ps the whole "well they should have been more careful" thing is pretty stupid. Some things can be found no matter how well you hide them. What probably happened is the male's parents were checking the Internet history and came upon some dirty photos which happened to be of his girlfriend.

If you can't guarantee hiding the stuff, don't make it. If they made the images available to individuals outside of the subject matter, they can be charged with CP distribution, which is what happened.

I'm talking to have others hear me. It's what most talking accomplishes.

And if discussions that don't change anything are "pretty damn stupid", then pretty much 99.99% of all discussions ever held anywhere are "pretty damn stupid". Since when was the only point of talking to change things?

It's not. Let's take the FFR forums for example. Someone makes a Chit Chat topic with a link to a game, provided a bunch of people with something to kill time with and a small sense of accomplishment for doing really well or beating everyone else in the topic. Someone starts a philosophical discussion in CT
and it evolves into something that educates one or both sides. Someone makes a funny in TGB that makes them feel good when people laugh.

You, on the other hand, are doing nothing but preaching, and your message is meaningless. There is no change. There is no sense of accomplishment, unless you feel gratified when people waste their time reading what you've written. There are only words, words that will ultimately never amount to anything.

Before you turn this right back around on me, my goal in posting here is to demonstrate why certain mentalities expressed in this topic are misguided (note: this does not necessarily imply "wrong") and hopefully turn them in the right direction. I feel a small sense of accomplishment in showing meiloyn how truly hard it is to produce a law better than the existing age one. He/she may now leave this topic a more educated person, even if his/her opinion is not changed.

My stance is more "The existing law is stupid" than "Why is the existing law the way it is?". I don't really care what was going through the heads of whoever made the law the way it is, but I do think that whoever wrote it, if they meant it to be enforced this way (getting punished for taking pictures of yourself), then they were writing a stupid law.

Then write a better one! Oh wait, that isn't possible.

Like I told meiloyn, you don't have to like the law, but it's the best we have so complaining about it makes you look stupid because it implies that you'd rather have an inferior alternative.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

last I checked, 16 and 17 year olds are not even CHILDREN

Oh yes they are. They have greater rational capabilities and greater understandings than a, say, six year old, but still very much inferior judgment than adults.

See the other thread for more on that.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[MixMasterLar]

Re: Teens charged for possession of child porn... of themselves...

Oh yes they are. They have greater rational capabilities and greater understandings than a, say, six year old, but still very much inferior judgment than adults.

It doesnt matter what age "Children" are. In Florida, you cant have sex till your 18.

Stupid? never said it wasnt. Who tought it was inportent to make that one.....Of course, if you look, it's illegal to hunt whales on sunday in Ohio---guess this aint THAT stupid.