Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

[FissionMailed1]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

I should have stepped all of the buzzes in 44 Edit as 250 BPM 32nds ending with hands like I originally had it because it would be technically accurate.

EDIT: This post probably came off as really snarky. Point being is that technicality has to be sacrificed to make a file fun to play. I really don't enjoy playing Crow's Ghost because I can't hit fast (13)(24) jumptrills that well. If it used some variation (i.e. (14)(23) and (12)(34) more) in it's jumptrills, I would find it a lot more fun to play. As it is now, it is more rigid than it has to be IMO.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

brb retiring from judging because i'm terrible and someone who is so much better than me at simfiling is making a great point

@ qqwref: I figured someone as intelligent as you would realize the meaning of a "grey area". You guys aren't right with saying that "technical qualities of a file make up only 50%" of a good file (not even close, really), and those who are enjoying a file that is technically correct that you dislike aren't wrong because you think it isn't fun. People are entitled to chart things in a way that is right, and it is up to people to understand and appreciate the way that they do. You don't appreciate the way that CG is stepped. Guess what -- other people do, and other people enjoy it. As I mentioned before, the chart has a stringent structure, people enjoy it -- it's a good file.

look out guys, technical qualities of a file are only 50% of it, I'm gonna intentionally make a dumpfile that makes no sense, but hey, all of the higher players enjoy it -- it's totally a gOoD FiLe!!!~1

EDIT: qqwref - your passage d file is totally correct in PR but it's super boring and unfun, sorry it's a terrible file (p.s. it's not a bad file).

[qqwref]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

There are dumpfiles with very little technical correctness (as in, bpm/sync is correct but that's it) that I absolutely love and will play over and over again. There are also technically correct files that I don't enjoy enough to even play through once (cough, Into Your Eyes, cough). I think 50% is pretty accurate. Honestly, maybe it's even less.

Edit: what's so controversial about saying a file is good if, quote, "all of the higher players enjoy it"? Actually, I'd say that is the definition of a good difficult file.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

I hope you mean "They're not wrong, and you guys aren't wrong". Because anything that isn't "objective" is a matter of opinion.

If you honestly believe that anyone who dislikes a mildly technically accurate file is wrong, I hope you "retire" from judging ASAP.

Retire is a little harsh more like take a break. AJ's got super strong technical insights that are simply invaluable.

It all comes down to the fact that people are ragging on a file that is correct, and one that is actually enjoyed by other people.

No one's said "wow this chart is fucking garbage rip out of the game, why are charts like this shit being accepted still?" So I'd say no one has "ragged" on it. (Note: That is an example and not an actual opinion.)

People have given a fair amount of [proper] commentary and discussion and to just ignore it the way you have with saying "it's technically correct" shows you are being biased rather than objective.

THAT is what lately has been really bugging me. A chart being correct technically is outweighing if it can actually be enjoyed by the majority rather than the minority. In short, flow and fun factor took the back seat of the bus and technicality keeps making it move back there like it's less important. (Which in my opinion flow is the most important thing, but if you can equalize it all perfectly that'd be ideal.)

The tourney charts save for a few notable ones, such as Beatrice and Blue Marine, ect, took a step back in quality when the step up in being over-technical (Crows Ghost / Infinity) took a step forward.

But that's just all my opinion. Not sure if others agree with me on the last part.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

@ qqwref: There are dumpfiles that have no technical correctness that you will play again. They're files you will play again. They also will never be accepted in a game like FFR because there are standards. This is precisely why your statement is horribly incorrect. There are technically correct files that you don't enjoy enough to play through even once. They're files you will never play again. But other people will, and they fit the standards of what FFR considers to be a good file.

If you stop to check around, you'll find that Crow's Ghost is appealing to higher level players. Not everyone likes it, but again, there are people who enjoy it, and it is acceptable by FFR's standards. If you don't like it, that's on you.

There are people who understand what makes a file objectively correct, and I am one of them. I have credibility, and whether or not people care, that's fine. Subjective points are up to the users that play the game. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

It isn't up to the person to pass judgment on a simfile and dismiss it as "bad" when they themselves don't enjoy it. All you say is "I don't like this." That's it.

[bmah]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

technical correctness is only maybe 50% of what makes a simfile good. Factors like fun factor, flow, and difficulty structure are very important

I'll have to correct you here, but "fun factor" isn't a factor at all. It's the product of a good balance of technical correctness. To say that a stepper adds a certain amount of technicality vs fun factor mistakenly makes the assumption that they're deliberately not adding an ingredient. Flow and pitch relevancy contribute to "technicality". The end product is a file that has a varying degree of "fun", which of course depends on your tastes. You don't "add" fun.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

Is Xx{AutisticKid}xX raging at files too hard for him again?



lol ffr never change

[qqwref]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

I'll have to correct you here, but "fun factor" isn't a factor at all. It's the product of a good balance of technical correctness. To say that a stepper adds a certain amount of technicality vs fun factor mistakenly makes the assumption that they're deliberately not adding an ingredient.

That's like saying that beauty isn't a factor in music, just a product of a good balance of technical talent, because to say that someone could add a certain amount of technicality vs beauty in a song makes the assumption that a composer is deliberately not making their song beautiful.

Fun is complex; it's not something you can guarantee as you step a file, like sync or avoiding one-handed trills. Having a file not be fun is never a deliberate choice - it happens because people aren't perfect. That doesn't mean creators of unfun files are bad stepauthors (nobody's perfect). However, I do wish that creators of unfun files would take the criticism constructively and try to actually improve, rather than becoming angry or responding that they don't care, like some people on this site.

Flow and pitch relevancy contribute to "technicality"

Yes, pitch relevancy is technicality. But flow has nothing to do with technicality, it's about how the file plays physically. How it feels to hit, how the difficulty plays out, what it's like to try to score on the chart. Whenever you have multiple possible patterns that are all technically fine - and this happens a lot - the choice is independent of technicality but can highly affect flow. Flow is definitely a product of the ability of a stepauthor but that certainly doesn't mean it's a technical aspect of a chart.

It isn't up to the person to pass judgment on a simfile and dismiss it as "bad" when they themselves don't enjoy it. All you say is "I don't like this." That's it.

Sounds like someone who wants to be insulated from all criticism so they can keep making files the same way without having to consider he feelings of others or put in the effort to change. It's absolutely okay for people to not enjoy something, have a good reason for why they didn't like it, and explain that they think it is of low quality because of that. That is the foundation of all criticism.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

Contributing seriously to discussion though:

A lot of FFR judges test files on SM and fail to account for the differences between FFR and SM. Boos and lack of chord cohesion are HUGE, SM and FFR play like two totally different games (because they actually are haha see what I did there?)

Judges need to be much more mindful of 1-hand anchor patterns and difficult split patterns when judging for FFR. The (13)(24) jumptrills and other 1324-feeling split patterns are a red flag for me on a file like D5 has now. I haven't really played it enough to have a final verdict on it (only played twice and frankly I'm not even good enough to hit the patterns properly anymore) but it definitely is the kind of thing that more judges should be extremely mindful of in the future.

[sticklydude]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

Crow's Ghost has grown on me since the round started.
I can kinda see why it was stepped the way it was.

The only thing I have against it is the last 15 seconds. They do nothing for the song and should have been cut out.

[Razor]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

You don't "add" fun.

qft

[j-rodd123]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

that's cuz lil mama adds it for u

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

mfw when qqwref is arguing simfile rhetoric with (arguably) the best simfile artist on the site (referring to bmah)

sorry, but I just can't take it seriously anymore lol

[dore]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

Yes, pitch relevancy is technicality. But flow has nothing to do with technicality, it's about how the file plays physically. How it feels to hit, how the difficulty plays out, what it's like to try to score on the chart. Whenever you have multiple possible patterns that are all technically fine - and this happens a lot - the choice is independent of technicality but can highly affect flow. Flow is definitely a product of the ability of a stepauthor but that certainly doesn't mean it's a technical aspect of a chart.

Butting in on the conversation, I completely disagree here. Changing the flow or the feel of a chart can completely change what you are trying to express as a stepauthor, and if you're mindful of it is just as effective as layering or any other 'technical' technique. For a simple example, the big red wall at the end of White Walls Part 2, I made it (14)(23) instead of (34)(12) or something like that just so that you get the feel of both hands doing the same trill to replicate the drummer trilling with his hands and feet and the back and forth motion of the guitar players, etc. It wouldn't really express that same idea if it was a (34)(12) or even (24)(13) which you can cheat if you're crafty . While that's a more simple distinction, the way you force a player to play a chart can change what the player interprets musically from the chart without changing layering or any other 'technical' aspects that you could otherwise use.

(Guess the secret's out that I intentionally use 'bad' flowing patterns to troll I mean make files more iNtEnSe)

[qqwref]

Re: Official Tournament Round 5 Song Discussion

(arguably) the best simfile artist on the site (referring to bmah)

hahahahaha I'm fucking dying here

you should be a comedian