02-11-2015, 01:46 PM | #41 | ||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
I can't tell if you're serious but because this is Critical Thinking I'll assume so.
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Even if it did, it really doesn't hold much significance. The only roots you can draw from are explanations from large-scale cultural values, which don't necessarily lead any opinion of arrogance, and you don't need a map for these either. Quote:
The point of your statement is to explain why someone can be good at something and still be truthfully humble. What you're saying here is that if something isn't easy, then most likely the reason for being skilled and humble is that they're not good enough to know how skilled they are. Does this mean that in order to be honest, someone that is only somewhat skilled can be humble, and someone that is extremely skilled and self-aware can't? On top of that, this implies the extremely skilled person is now left in a position where they have no choice but to either be dishonest or arrogant. Again, how are these definitions practical? Quote:
Comparing who is generally better or worse is probably only useful in setting approximate benchmarks for yourself to track your goal progress, and this is still far from useless.
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02-11-2015, 05:37 PM | #42 | |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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If people didn't self-compare, no progress in exercise science would happen. (Okay, it would, but it would happen at a turtle pace.) I also can't think of how you could possibly improve much as a writer without doing this. In every writing course I've taken, you learn how other writers write so that you know how to, among other things, distinguish yourself. |
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02-11-2015, 08:37 PM | #43 | |||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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the point is, overall you still dont have any reason to brag. Quote:
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02-11-2015, 08:39 PM | #44 | |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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02-11-2015, 08:45 PM | #45 | |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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unless it's just an ego thing, and honesty is just your way of rationalizing your behavior.
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02-11-2015, 09:07 PM | #46 |
Harmonoize
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
1) Arrogance can be a false opinion of yourself unless you have some stuff to back up that you have achieved something the way you did. It is a high opinion of yourself where you give little to no credit to others helping you along the way and only want to make your ego look bigger. If you are legitimately the best at something and you boast about something, that would be considered arrogance.
2) People get offended by arrogance/bragging because they find it to be too self-absorbent of the person who is doing said bragging. Bragging can be good if it is very minor and doesn't continue for days on end or if the person who bested something doesn't say anything to belittle everyone else. 3) No it isn't dishonest because it shows you are good at something but at the same time you have a good attitude about it which also makes one a good person. From this explanation, this doesn't paint an inaccurate picture of oneself. |
02-11-2015, 10:55 PM | #47 | |||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
Ho boy this is gonna be fun.
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See, this lines up with your last post: Quote:
I am living counterexample of your point. If someone is truly the best at something and expresses it when it is relevant, I will absolutely not see it as arrogance. Quote:
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1. All cultures have an accepted perspective to what counts as arrogance. 2. For any given context, all persons of a given culture have the same feelings about what is considered arrogance. What I consider arrogance may be totally different from what my brother considers arrogance, and we share a near identical culture. You even said that to be considered arrogant, we should take a poll. What happens if you mix populations from two or more cultures (who, let's just hypothetically say, all share the same opinion on arrogance within their culture)? Does what culture they belong to automatically dictate their position of arrogance? I find this notion absolutely absurd. Quote:
Suppose I'm going into an interview for a job. Everyone else has been shown to be qualified, but I know I'm better than everyone else at the job and deserve it. Should I undercut myself or express my honest opinion of myself? Is this not considered bragging? Either way, it's a high opinion of myself so it's arrogant according to your definition. How would this be insulting? Quote:
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Summary You have tons of fallacies in your arguments, all under the general presumption that any kind of expression of self in high regard is most definitely unnecessary and insulting to most everyone else. This basic presumption is unsupported, and leads to a bunch of poor arguments with holes in them. All of these fallacies can be patched if you go back to the drawing board and realize that under certain circumstances, high opinion of self is not only not insulting but the right thing to do, and comparison of self and others is a critically fundamental method in which all people use to improve their own lives and interpret the reality around them.
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02-11-2015, 11:32 PM | #48 | ||||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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i mean this isnt totally uncommon. when you mix two groups, a lot of the time actions that go without notice in one group are a big deal for the other group. one group of people might not consider something arrogant while the other does, and guess what? that's okay. i mean, sometimes it causes problems, but there's nothing to stop two groups of people from seeing things differently. Quote:
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again, arrogance is all about how people perceive the way you talk about yourself. because of cultural norms, most people generally have a good idea of where the line is in a given situation. some people cross the line because they are oblivious or lack social grace, some cross it because they have disorders, and some cross it because they're assholes or because they like feeling better than the people around them. Quote:
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02-12-2015, 04:46 AM | #49 | |||||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
The fun never ends.
So you do know what logical fallacies are right? I pointed out that your arguments and positions are just full of them and you don't seem to be aware. Let me help you here. Quote:
You agreed that in order to be arrogant, one must come across as insulting. You also said flat out that a high opinion of oneself "by definition" guarantees that it will come off as insulting. You picked one example which is in fact insulting, and somehow you believe this proves your point that all high opinions of self are insulting. Quote:
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What is this "well defined" distribution? Quote:
Just because a small sample of people feel a certain way, it doesn't mean that's the case with the larger group. In fact, if opinions on arrogance was more influenced by local factors rather than wider cultural factors, your claim is both false and useless. Quote:
You asserted that culture pretty much determines how people view arrogance. I'm trying to argue that tying one's opinion of arrogance automatically to what a culture as a whole feels (if the culture even holds such a view) is ridiculous and is in no way relevant to the context of the situation. When someone does something possibly arrogant, only the opinions of the people interacting in that situation are relevant. You just went off on a tangent completely by stating something "obviously" true as if it proves your point. In any case, if that's your point, why is it then that having a high opinion of oneself automatically correlates to insulting someone? If group A thought the high opinion was insulting, but group B did not, and the context only involves people within group B, doesn't that negate your point that high opinion of oneself "by definition" is insulting? Quote:
I tried to ask you about why you make a dichotomy between honesty and arrogance. Why can't a skilled person be honest and not arrogant? You were addressing my point by quoting me, and then you deflect the argument by saying you were talking to Arch. No you weren't. Even if you were, you're not understanding what he's asking. He's asking what conditions could classify self opinion as arrogant, and you still haven't addressed your false dichotomy of honesty and arrogance. Quote:
You either just agreed that one can be justified in having a high opinion of oneself without being arrogant, or you just gave another example where it is possible one could still be arrogant. Again, I'm trying to address your point that a high opinion of oneself necessarily "by definition" is arrogance. Quote:
We are trying to discuss what makes one's expression of self opinion arrogant or not. We are not at the moment discussing what causes a person to act arrogantly or not. In other words, we are discussing how to classify and distinguish arrogance from non-arrogance, not what makes a person predisposed to coming off as arrogant. Quote:
Your point was that there is no reason to make comparisons of your skill with other people. I gave you a reason. In order to improve one's skill at a competitive game, one must understand what kinds of strategies the opponent will make, and the only way to adapt to opponents is to study them, and this is the comparison. What you said is indeed arrogant, but it is not the only way in which one compares oneself to others. Just because this particular behavior is arrogant and needless does not justify the notion that all comparisons with people are needless. Quote:
I'm clearly part of this conversation because I'm calling you out on how what you're saying has major flaws. It's irrelevant who is in the conversation because from an outside perspective anyone can point these out. All of my points are valid and do not need to call upon any information or opinions of Arch personally. Quote:
Again, one more time. My point is that you automatically link high opinion of self with insulting others, "by definition" of arrogance. But clearly, you already admitted that this may not always be the case, and there could exist exceptions. My point is that by asserting high opinion of self necessarily implies arrogance ignores these exceptions. Like, with all due respect, I don't want to insult your intelligence by thinking you can't see the flaws in your argument when I've outlined them this clearly.
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02-12-2015, 08:00 PM | #50 | |||||||||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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i'm not arguing that high opinions of self are insulting, i'm arguing that expressing a high opinion of self where you relate yourself to other people is always insulting, and that expressing a high opinion of yourself without using relative terms can be insulting depending on context. when you say you are better than someone, that will almost always make them feel bad. is that general enough for you? Quote:
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you're arguing all or nothing, i'm arguing that the bulk of people who have a high opinion of themselves will insult the people around them. you'll have a few outliers who have a high opinion of themselves but arent annoying, but nothing statistically significant. Quote:
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02-12-2015, 08:53 PM | #51 |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
I don't claim to be an expert on this topic but regardless I might have rare insight that could be interesting:
Arrogance is when someone oversells their own abilities and makes him/herself seem superior. There are different ways to conduct arrogance however. A unskilled arrogant person is probably less self-aware and more likely to be interpreted as an insufferable worthless asshole douchebag -- the ones in which most of us probably think of when we think "arrogant". It gets really interesting when actual arrogant behavior is interpreted as a possession of skills/traits of the person that are in actuality not there. It means this person is a "smart arrogant manipulator" capable of deceiving people into convincing them their skills are awesome and worthy of self and praise. It ends up coming full circle to partly the skill (ironic isn't it :P) of the person conducting the arrogant behavior/whether they are self-aware of what they are doing, however, the biggest factor is sheer willingness to be cutthroat -- it takes a certain mindset/personality. My own personal opinion is that smart arrogant manipulators are some of the worst people for our society because the people that take on this tactic are usually only in it for personal gain and often become huge societal influences. These people are truly the magicians of the world. Humility is generally about underselling your own abilities. In the American culture I'm exposed to it's probably more expected not to brag about accomplishments to everybody because that can often imply that you require validation. At the same time it's probably good to at least show people what you can do though. It's kinda a double standard. I think it stems from people being jealous of what others can do and purposely trying to bring achievers down. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with bragging about accomplishments. It helps get yourself out there and helps people understand who you are better. Showing people what you can do is not arrogance. Just make sure not to cross the fine line between neediness and getting yourself out there. It would be more needy if you post your relatively small accomplishments everywhere all the time. |
02-12-2015, 09:26 PM | #52 |
The Worst
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
basically because arrogance is defined in terms of human perception, it becomes statistical. pure deductive reasoning will not work. period.
without real data, all we can do is guess at probable median values (cultural norms) and argue about what things are going to narrow or spread the distribution (cultural subgroups, people with disorders, etc). |
02-13-2015, 12:03 AM | #53 | |||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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I'm gonna cover all of these with this blanket because I'm not the one making any arguments. I came into the thread to talk about why your reasoning is flawed. I don't need to justify claims, only to counter yours. Quote:
If you make the claim that this is "always" the case, and I point out an exception, your statement is no longer true. And then right below it, you explain yourself why you agree with me even though you fail to admit this. The fact that you used "almost" should mean that you understand why the above bolded statement is false. If I say playing basketball always results in injury, all I need is one example of basketball not resulting in injury to demonstrate this statement is false. Quote:
It's like me saying that I have a graph that disproves that cultures have a stance on arrogance. The concept of a graph here is useless unless I explain what this graph represents. The problem isn't "formalism" (whatever the fuck that is). It's that you cannot form coherently logical arguments. Which is the point of this board. Quote:
Once again, we're talking about how to classify arrogance and non-arrogance. Your claim is generalization. Even if I accept it as true, it offers nothing to the current topic and only demonstrates your initial claims were poorly thought out. This is why your statements are malformed and incorrect. Quote:
But that still doesn't change the fact that there are fundamental flaws with what you said, even without needing context. I don't need context to tell someone who claims 2+2=5 that he's wrong. Quote:
I was addressing your following claim: Quote:
As for the claim itself, you seem to be misunderstanding what it means to compare oneself to someone else. Not only did you misinterpret my example, but my example is indeed a "comparison". You seem to define your comparison as some kind of mockery of other people that doesn't provide any gain, so of course you would make the claim that it is useless and provides no benefit. But that's not what your words are saying, and this is not honest intellectual discourse. If I say "God exists." and I define God to be the universe (which is something that exists), my claim is meaningless and not intellectually honest.
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02-13-2015, 12:07 AM | #54 |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
By the way, deductive reasoning is not "a completely pointless circle jerk" because in order to interpret and understand a statement (that may require statistics and data to demonstrate) you need to use deductive reasoning to understand it. We do not in any way use "pure deductive reasoning", and since you think that, you clearly don't know what it really means. (But it doesn't matter anyways because that's not what we're doing)
If I say "Most ravens are black." you need to use deductive reasoning in order to understand what each of those words mean, and what they mean when put together, and THEN you can make a judgment as to whether or not it's true. This isn't even a topic of statistics. This is a topic of psychology and sociology (or something I dunno, but it's definitely not statistics). Just because it involves the human perception does not make this issue necessarily statistical. Why would you even suggest statistics as the end all evidence required to demonstrate a concept that is not related to statistics? It doesn't make sense.
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02-13-2015, 06:18 PM | #55 | ||||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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02-13-2015, 06:20 PM | #56 | |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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02-13-2015, 07:39 PM | #57 | ||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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Suppose you've been falsely accused of a crime and you have to go to court. Because 99% of the people who are accused are guilty, we say "by definition" you are guilty and sentence you. This is not fair, and this is not how we distinguish the guilty from the innocent. Quote:
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Cashier: Sir, you bought this for $2 and that for $2 as well. You owe me $5, not $4. You can't just attach context to this because the cashier is just flat out wrong. Except I don't agree with you. Looking up can be obnoxious, looking down is not necessarily arrogant. Quote:
Are you not satisfied with this example? Your arguments are one-dimensional, incoherent, and flat out wrong. I've understood all of your points, and they're either off-topic, "obvious" or wrong. - We already understand that arrogance is based on perception. - We already understand that this is not a "purely logical" issue, no one is arguing using "pure logic". - You refuse to be intellectually honest by redefining terms and applying fallacy after fallacy. - When I try to address your claims and explain why you're wrong, you deliberately redirect the topic or shift the burden of proof. - You don't even think logic is important for a rational discussion so you clearly don't belong here.
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02-13-2015, 08:59 PM | #58 | |||||||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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02-13-2015, 09:17 PM | #59 | ||||||
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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Example: If I say "Most apples are red." this has nothing to do with how we determine whether or not an apple is red. We distinguish a red apple with a non-red apple by using our eyes, but this has no bearing on the statement "Most apples are red." Example: Saying that most people don't have cancer does not help you in any way determine whether or not someone has cancer. If a patient comes in for a cancer test, you don't just say "Most people don't have cancer, so you definitely don't have cancer." We are discussing the test of arrogance, not generalizing statements about arrogance. That depends on your perception. Just because I insult doesn't mean I'm an asshole, you'd have to take a poll of the people in this thread and get some probable mean values, find a distribution. Unless you do that, you can't prove I'm an asshole. Quote:
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I do. It's malformed and wrong. Quote:
I play a game of chess with my friend. He crushes me and says he's better than me, rubbing it in my face and taunting me. I'm not insulted in the slightest. Is this arrogance? If it is, you just contradicted your own position that it's based on perception. If it is not, then you just contradicted your own position that expressed high opinion of self is necessarily arrogance. Both ways you're wrong. Quote:
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This is why I'm trying to rationally address all of your fallacies. Because if I wanted to play the same game you're playing we don't get anywhere. You need to use logic and reason in order to make your arguments coherent so that the content of the arguments themselves can be examined. Instead, you resort to fallacy after fallacy and refuse to understand basic rational discourse.
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02-13-2015, 09:23 PM | #60 | |
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Re: What is arrogance/humility, what is bragging, is it bad, and why?
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