Serious Judging System Suggestion

[ItsOnlyDanO]

But the experienced player doesn't have to be a judge, you don't have to be a judge to know what a good simfile is.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by cedolad

The implication of the new system wouldn't necessarily disband the judging crew.

Right that is how it would likely be, but that isn't my personal philosophy on the way it should be.

[i love you]

Well, keep in mind how ridiculously huge and active osu! is in comparison to FFR. The osu idea on here would not work so well on FFR because we are such a small community and most of us probably does not have the time or patience to keep up with checking every single simfile that gets published within the site. We also have limited bandwidth (from what I have heard) so it is not like we could constantly have new threads being made with majority of them being published files. We simply will not be able to keep up with the pace. Hell, most of the judges recently (myself included at the time) had problems meeting the judge deadline.

We could probably apply certain aspects of the way osu! does their judging system but it would have to be carefully done and tested.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Yea, that sounds like a great idea to me. The community really needs to be a bigger part of what is good or bad and not the judges.

It would be cool if you could upload any of your own simfiles to your profile and have people play them outside of ranking. If there were enough votes or plays on a simfile there then maybe it could just get auto pushed to ranking.

Honestly anything to remove judges from the equation seems like a good idea to me.

I've been a huge fan of how osu! managed their game; when a file was approved by the osu! panel, it became ranked and people could compete for good scores on it and whatnot, but files that were not ranked were still easily downloadable and easy to share. It would be absolutely incredible if there were a three-step process where a user would upload a file, get it QC-checked (assure that the basics of sync/following the music appropriately were followed), and then get it judged for actual ranking (similar to the judgment process now). Even if a file weren't to make the cut, it could still be played by other people.

The unfortunate thing about it is that implementation of this system is extremely difficult given the extremely high amount of server space that would be required to even put a majority of these files through. osu! literally allows you to submit a file meeting their guidelines through the game, regardless of the quality of the map itself if I remember correctly. Manpower is also an issue.

EDIT: pretty much ninja'd.

[cedolad]

Originally Posted by ItsOnlyDanO

But the experienced player doesn't have to be a judge, you don't have to be a judge to know what a good simfile is.

Well yeah essentially. The point of keeping the judges around wouldn't be to say "oh hey this a good file" or "oh hey this is a terrible file", but instead give useful criticisms (if any at all), on how to make a file more fun, or help apply theories where the average step artist didn't exactly apply them or apply them correctly. All in all the judges would be more for bringing out more quality from a file instead of looking at technical errors and off-sync files.

The average experienced player would be the ones who say that a pattern didn't exactly portray a certain aspect of a chart correctly, or that there is a misrhythm. Or the file is off-sync.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Right that is how it would likely be, but that isn't my personal philosophy on the way it should be.

To each their own, I understand why you wouldn't a judging crew, but it's inevitable and they're really helpful for up and coming stepartists.

[Izzy]

I'd consider paying for a few terabytes of harddrives. This is somehow always the problem when anything new is brought up. Apparently we will never have raw scoring because no space...

[TC_Halogen]

Raw scoring has already been implemented and has been for quite a while; space isn't the pressing issue in that instance. All engines do use combo scoring, but they are saved to raw scoring in parallel (not separately, meaning if you get a better raw score on a run with a miss, you won't see that improved raw score since combo scoring takes precedence).

[noname219]

Originally Posted by Izzy

I'd consider paying for a few terabytes of harddrives. This is somehow always the problem when anything new is brought up. Apparently we will never have raw scoring because no space...

Well, apparently...

Originally Posted by Velocity

Song Info / Leaderboards:


So, one of the biggest changes going into the new site.

Leaderboard changes:
- Top 5 is no longer just the top of a list.

- Raw and Combo scoring are now stored separately, with your current best raw based on your combo going into the site change.

- Viewing Replays: From now on, anytime you beat a previous best, your replay will be stored separately into the leaderboards. This doesn't contribute to your stored total.

- For the new site, if you have a saved replay for that score, it'll be pulled from your saved replays into the leaderboards where it will safely stored.

[Izzy]

Sounds like a simple fix at this point. Could be as easy as 1 line of code in the engines.

[YoshL]

also @Xiz/Charu that running batch thing, thirdstyle tried it, I think the problem of judges not wanting to do work is even worse. People like Middie (lol) or people with like 4 minute files would have their file just stuck in the queue for a really long time while judges lazed the fuck out of the process

something like that

[cedolad]

And if that's the case, we can't blame the judging crew, only ourselves, the community.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Sounds like a simple fix at this point. Could be as easy as 1 line of code in the engines.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if you need to edit the engines at all. I could be wrong, though (I don't know much about the Flash coding as much as the PHP/SQL part). You would however have to build some code that checks the current scores recorded on the engine at a present time against the scores in both databases and update them separately. I don't think it's necessary to build a separate PHP file for it, you might be able to do it all in one sweep.

I'm not a developer or extremely well versed in any of these programming languages, but as I've said before... it just takes patience. Being that everyone is doing everything for no compensation, real life priorities and other more engaging interests really do come first, haha. That's why it's important to really like what you're doing.

EDIT: see noname, rofl -- didn't even realize he posted that nor did I remember that Velocity posted that even though I'm sure that he did tell me at some point

[noname219]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

EDIT: see noname, rofl -- didn't even realize he posted that nor did I remember that Velocity posted that even though I'm sure that he did tell me at some point

Least noticed poster 2014.

[hi19hi19]

Okay this thread kinda exploded, but I want to just re-iterate my problem with the SAP system as it is now.

SAP right now basically just amounts to a gigantic barrier to entry for new steppers, then once you reach the cap it does literally nothing (besides cause a huge amount of bookkeeping work for the judge team)

I'll use Razor, Scintill, and ilikexd as examples, seeing as all three had their files voted as files of the year, yet all three do not have the max cap.
These are people who are making what the community has voted to literally be among the best files in the game, and yet the stupid system is preventing them from submitting more masterpieces. Shouldn't we be encouraging the people who obviously make good stuff?
What's the point of having to "prove yourself" for often literally over a year before you can submit the max number of files?

Similarly, there are people who just kind of sit on their laurels with the max cap and submit whatever they want (I'll use myself and some of my recent files such as Turbo and The National Anthem of Japan as an example of this. They're experimental and interesting files but ultimately the kind of file I'd never send if SAP actually mattered because clearly the community doesn't want that kind of file even if I do)
Why is it that I'm being allowed to not give a fuck about SAP?

Honestly the whole system just kinda makes no sense to me.
It moves slowly and as such is incredibly stifling to newcomers who make good files, but at the same time if you consistently submit mediocre stuff, you can eventually get max SAP and stop caring about it, even if all the files you submitted were the kind of "bleh 6.5/10 kinda good i guess" files.

If we reset the SAP, it would make SAP actually matter for everyone again, and put newcomers on even footing with the veterans, at least for a bit. If the newcomers make better files than the veterans, they'll accelerate to the top of the SAP chart and have their cap appropriately higher.
That lets the quality of your files do the talking, instead simply measuring the length of time you've been slowly climbing the ladder.

Eventually we will reach a point where everyone who deserves to have max cap will, everyone who doesn't deserve to have max cap will (just from slowly slogging up the ladder) and newcomers who deserve max cap are stuck for a year submitting scraps. That seems wrong.

p.s. the argument that resetting SAP would cause too few files is flawed, because if there are fewer files submitted, that allows for more frequent batches, and arguably actually more files overall because the batches go faster and people have more opportunities to submit as a result.

[hi19hi19]

Honestly in the end I don't care personally, because I have max cap. If you want to keep it as is, no skin off my back. I'll be continuing to submit without thinking about SAP in the slightest. (note this is not me being an asshole saying I'll submit bad files just to spite the system or something, but that I'm free to be experimental and push the boundaries of files I think are cool but I'm not sure the judges will like them or not)


But I feel bad for people like Scintill, Razor, and ilikexd (among others) and I think their situation is not helping the community or the game be as good as it should.

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by YoshL

also @Xiz/Charu that running batch thing, thirdstyle tried it, I think the problem of judges not wanting to do work is even worse. People like Middie (lol) or people with like 4 minute files would have their file just stuck in the queue for a really long time while judges lazed the fuck out of the process

something like that

In regards to this, some requirement preventing people from skipping files. Like out of 16(ish?) judges, im sure 4 will bite the bullet and judge that file to keep it moving.


But I do see your point. And remember, turdstyle is very different then ffr

[Arkuski]

Originally Posted by Xiz

turdstyle

how dare you

[cedolad]

its da troof

[Xiz]

Also, what if instead of removing the cap (which I am still against) we can adjust it a bit...


So instead of....

0-9pts - 2
10-16pts - 3
17-39pts - 4
40pts or more - 5


It becomes...

0-9pts - 2
10-15pts - 3
16-22pts - 4
23-30pts - 5
31-39pts - 6
40pts or more - 7


-shrug-

I'm just spitballing here. Throwing out ideas. Feedback appreciated.

[TC_Halogen]

p.s. the argument that resetting SAP would cause too few files is flawed, because if there are fewer files submitted, that allows for more frequent batches, and arguably actually more files overall because the batches go faster and people have more opportunities to submit as a result.

Batch periods are set bi-monthly, for SAP purposes. They wouldn't be expedited any faster than x files for every two months as SAP dictates, so it technically -would- slow down for the first few batches until people recover SAP. People are able to submit max files each batch because of how long the batches are taking to judge, which is a problem to be addressed.