What does it take for kids to learn?

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

no, i understand perfectly well what you're saying, and i'm not sure why you keep retaliating against what i'm saying even though my advice is 100% spot-on. yes, we both agree that hitting is a last resort (although i go as far as to say it isn't needed at all whatsoever), move on.

you kept on saying i was wrong even though i was agreeing with you

[ghost-]

Sorry, I came off like I meant spanking was fine to do whenever. I have the same argument as wc, a last resort is cool, (as it was with me if I didn't listen after a billion times) but a lot, as you said, can hurt the parent/child relationship.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

you kept on saying i was wrong even though i was agreeing with you

well i disagree in the sense that i don't think that it's needed at all -- not even as a sort of "last resort" mechanism. i dislike it when people say "Well, i was spanked here and there as a kid and I turned out fine so on some level spanking isn't harmful" because it perpetuates misinformation and gives people the wrong idea. other idiots use fuel like this to justify stupidity all the time.

yes, some people will turn out fine despite being spanked -- but there is always going to be variance in a distribution. the overwhelming trends show much greater gains from positive reinforcement over physical punishment/yelling/etc. a kid who turned out OK in the wake of spanking would have likely turned out even better with proper reinforcement. turning out fine despite spanking isn't evidence AGAINST positive reinforcement. that's like arguing that because you never went to the dentist and happened to have never had any cavities either, dentists aren't all that useful.

[~kitty~]

Spanking can be effective, but out of all the other methods, spanking is the least effective and probably shouldn't be used. I wouldn't think yelling would work, because when my parents yell at me, I don't see how it makes me a better person, it just makes me feel like they're trying to control me. I would try to do something in resisting, but I realize that they would kick me out if I did that, and I have nowhere to go, so... basically I don't have any attachment to my parents. Yelling and stuff is what made me feel this way. Don't do it.

[pmonibuv1]

The only punishment I remember when I was little was my dad locking my up in the laundry room and letting me cry until I finished crying and then let me out. I think it was because I wouldnt eat my food. Then he grabbed me and carried me to the laundry room.

Anyway, I dont think there was any physical punishments in my life. Maybe only a couple of times but they were only little smacks. I dont think yelling and screaming is a good idea for a child no matter what age they are. All of the things in this thread I would agree with. Instead of arguing and disagreeing with each other, try all of the methods in order that you think is the best to worst.

[DossarLX ODI]

Also arguing and disagreeing tends to end up in a ****fest of interrupting and yelling.

It's better for the parents to realize that their children are human beings, not property, and allow feedback instead of classifying it as "back-talk".

[kmay]

but then again rubix, it could just be people lying about how much it has affected their relationships. they could place the blame on spanking, when maybe it could have been outside sources causing the tension. I know how trends work and all that nonsense you are going to spew, but nothing about collecting data like this is concrete. no matter what you tell me. hmm i dont like my parents because they wont let me go to the concert i want to go to, I HATE THEM BECAUSE I WAS SPANKED. starts a trend amoung kids. people here this, liberals get outraged... yea

[OneHandNow]

stop coddling kids

end of discussion

tell her what's up - if you act like shit, you're gonna get shit.

treat her like shit if she acts like shit.
treat her nicely if she acts nicely.

simple as that. get and return, give and receive, don't give and don't get.
no respect? no mercy.

(you don't have to hit the kid though, she's only 4)

[ghost-]

the golden rule is basically what OHN is saying.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by kmay

but then again rubix, it could just be people lying about how much it has affected their relationships. they could place the blame on spanking, when maybe it could have been outside sources causing the tension. I know how trends work and all that nonsense you are going to spew, but nothing about collecting data like this is concrete. no matter what you tell me. hmm i dont like my parents because they wont let me go to the concert i want to go to, I HATE THEM BECAUSE I WAS SPANKED. starts a trend amoung kids. people here this, liberals get outraged... yea

yeah "nonsense" ok, way to go mr. strawman argument

it has nothing to do with people "lying" about their own view of things or what they necessarily believe their own views are. it's as simple as examining various outcomes resultant of different parenting methods, and it has nothing to do with what the kid's opinion is and has everything to do with the eventual outcomes of that kid's behavior.

even on top of that, you say you understand trends and yet clearly fail at understanding variance.

seriously i feel like humanity at this point is too retarded to survive if i keep reading posts like yours. i feel like people just enjoy arguing with me just to argue. go open google and research this shit for yourself. seriously.

[kmay]

cuz you know this is the place where you win arguements by talking down on people... idiot.

have fun

[Reincarnate]

No, you win arguments like actually looking at the evidence, which you fail to do. The evidence is pretty overwhelmingly conclusive -- anyone can quote mine and fall victim to confirmation bias by just searching for articles in favor of their one particular misconception/incorrect belief.

I can just as easily post
http://www.ehow.com/how_2222921_unde...iscipline.html
http://www.ehow.com/how_5059626_disc...parenting.html

Why don't you go study some basic psychology and learn the primary differences in punishment vs. reinforcement?
EDIT: Here, I'll even do it for you: http://tinyurl.com/63ddyws

God, people are so ****ing retarded. It's beyond embarrassing.

[ghost-]

Rubix, you're coming off as a huge f*cking douche, and I've actually always thought of you like this, just saying.

I think your opinion and view of this whole topic is based solely on how you were treated as a child. (No disrespect or offense meant) You are quite obviously very against the spanking treatment because of how badly you were treated as a child. (I'm just going off of what you said) You're really not letting anybody else show their own opinions and views of the situation as you have so blatantly done. You keep talking everybody down thinking your opinion on spanking is the all around correct answer. (at least that's what it looks like you're doing) Not everybody's life was like yours, not everybody experienced the same shit throughout their lives, everybody, everybody has an opinion.

You can go ahead and talk me down now. I won't be affected by your words. You have your views, I have mine.

[Reincarnate]

doesn't matter if i'm a huge ****ing douche because i'm still right, deal w/it

my opinion isn't based on my experiences as a child. my opinion is ground in well-tested psychology. positive reinforcement trumps whatever shitty spank-metrics you care to invoke because you're too stupid to think of anything better than pandering to your impulse to hit anything that frustrates you.

[ghost-]

Okay so now you're assuming I'm a violent person? Far from it. In fact, I'm the kind of person who finds getting angry at things to be pointless, because it doesn't solve anything and makes me look like an ass.

Nice to know that your whole philosophy is, "I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG". Wow man, I just lost a great deal of respect for you. Not only are you acting childish, your argument has turned into blind insults.

How can you take tests over real life experiences? What is wrong with you?

[Reincarnate]

i didn't say you were violent, ffs improve your reading comprehension. i'm saying that hitting is an impulsive, retarded technique that is typically invoked when they can't think of anything better. this is ALSO well-documented. ask parents that spank these sorts of questions and they almost always wind up being unable to give realistic, effective alternatives. they simply don't know any better because that's how they were raised. it's a cycle.

what is wrong with you? have you never heard of psychology? do you have absolutely no idea how tests are run/conducted? are you so ignorant of even the simplest of empirical measures, at that?

any situation you can bring up that involves hitting or spanking a child can almost always be replaced with a far more effective technique involving positive reinforcement. again, do some basic google searches if not convinced. if you're too lazy to actually look at both sides of the argument before spouting off total garbage, then that's your problem -- not mine.

[ghost-]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

i didn't say you were violent, ffs improve your reading comprehension.

You implied I was violent just because my argument is slightly for the other side. "you're too stupid to think of anything better than pandering to your impulse to hit anything that frustrates you."

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

what is wrong with you? have you never heard of psychology? do you have absolutely no idea how tests are run/conducted? are you so ignorant of even the simplest of empirical measures, at that?

I know what psychology is, thanks for asking. I didn't bash psychology, I simply asked why you would take tests of a broad spectrum over real-life experiences which IMO hold more value.

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

any situation you can bring up that involves hitting or spanking a child can almost always be replaced with a far more effective technique involving positive reinforcement.

I agree, but your arguments seem to be completely insults and nothing else, maybe you should calm down and have a reasonable discussion instead of bashbashbash

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

if you're too lazy to actually look at both sides of the argument before spouting off total garbage, then that's your problem -- not mine.

Excuse me? I'm spouting garbage? You're also assuming I'm lazy. Notice I haven't said a single negative thing towards you. Who's acting more mature right now? You need to fix your attitude problem.

[awein999]

Abusive behavior is a recipe for fear and anxiety. Far from solving the issue at hand, it makes problems worse. Since this thread is about how parents treat children here is relavent fictional example:
A child talks back to his parents and his dad starts screaming and shoves him. How will this child react? The child will get scared, and will either be more submissive or more rebellious in the future. Conflicts will be avoided rather than confronted which creates tension. He will be less trustful to everyone around him. He won't want to be home as often. He is more likely to partake in damaging behavior.

Words, communication, and understanding are infinitely more effective than violence and dominance. You teach people by reasoning and understanding. And you are not only doing the teaching, you can be taught a few things as well from other people. This is how bonds form.

[Reincarnate]

what are you talking about? it's not like tests are conducted in some lab somewhere shut off from the world. data is collected FROM real-life experiences and REAL people, so i'm not sure why you're implying the psychological motors aren't derived from these things.

If you didn't want to get insulted, then you shouldn't have called me a douche and showed a blatant misunderstanding of statistics. "golden rule," remember?

[who_cares973]

so many repeated posts