What does it take for kids to learn?

[virus003]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Are you retarded or just trolling me? Because if you seriously believe what you just said, then holy mother of poop I fear for your kids.

Spanking just teaches a child to fear you, and yes it does cause damage. I was spanked constantly as a kid and it caused a lot of problems for me for a long time. Even though my father was killed in a car crash, do you know what I feel for him? Absolutely nothing -- every single one of my memories with my father involved him either hitting/spanking me or punishing me over something retarded. I was never close to him, nor did I trust or respect him. It was just a massive aura of fear.

Eventually, what happens is that a kid who is spanked doesn't actually change the underlying behavior. It's like when you hit a dog constantly -- eventually it whimpers and cowers when you do nothing but simply get near its head. It'll still shit/piss in secret -- it'll just figure out how to do it without you noticing. It's not a healthy way to change behavior and it absolutely causes damage.

The problem is that hitting/spanking is a very "easy out" solution. It's the first thing that comes to the uneducated parent's mind -- "Oh, I'll just threaten the kid with beatings until it stops doing what I don't want it to." It's a lot harder to figure out safer ways to change behavior because it usually involves a combination of patience and careful guidelines. People who hit their kids are usually the kinds of people who were hit themselves. Don't be a dumbass by perpetuating the cycle. Pick up a goddamned parenting book or take a class or SOMETHING. Hell, just *Google* it.

I'm honestly really sorry to hear about your father, and apologize if this thread brings back any memories. You pretty much put the icing on the cake with this. To me it sounds like the background you're from determines your opinion on this, there's those that were spanked as a child, and those who had an "easier" way. Looks like I have a lot to tell my sister.

But I still need my question answered, what's a better way for a child to learn then?

[Rubin0]

I tried to answer your question in the beginning of this thread.

Positive reinforcement when the child is good. In other words, when she is good tell her that she is good. Reward her with something. Food is a good option but don't over indulge because that opens up an entire bag of worms when you relate food to emotions.

If you need to punish the child, time out. Ignore tantrums. Even yelling at a child is reinforcing a tantrum because you are giving the child attention, which is what she wants.

Always be consistent. If you put her in time out every single time she does a certain bad thing, she will learn. Eventually. It doesn't happen from one minute to the next. If could take days even months.

When she is good ALWAYS reward her. Not sometimes. Always until the behavior comes naturally, then you can reward her sometimes just to reinforce it so she doesn't forget. She is being good at the dinner table? "Good job honey, you are being such a lady at the dinner table. I am so proud of you." She is being good in the super market? "I am so proud of you. You are such a good girl. Pick a special snack you can eat on the car ride home".

[korny]

I'm sorry but my dad used to spank the shit out of me. Perhaps it's the manner in which he went about it, but I always tried not to laugh before i knew i was about to get beat. It didn't matter whether it was the belt or his hand, it was gonna hurt but I just would say "fck why did I do that lmao" and take it like the little boy I was. I might not have the greatest relationship whatsoever with my parents, but I definitely never feared my father nor would I even consider him having spanked me a reason for resentment. If your father literally beat the shit out of you then that's different but we're talking about conventional spanking here. I would get spanked for the most retarded reasons ever but I feel like it's all my dad knew how to do because I was just that unruly of a child. Grounding never worked so why not show your son who's the boss with spanking for doing something I was told not to do?

EDIT: On a side note, spanking never worked. I would do it anyway knowing I might or might not get a beating for it. Point i was trying to make, is if you let something like conventional spanking make you fear your parents to a point that it creates a rift in your relationship with them, then you're just a pansy who didn't know how to accept consequences for their actions.

[who_cares973]

theres the difference between you and me as a child then. i was hardly ever spanked and i was only ever hit when i in my opinion looking back now deserved it. constant hitting will obviously result in psychological damage. im not talking about hitting for every little thing that a kid does wrong ever a slap on the wrist sandle to the ass as a last resort never a first. i have never been a bully and i suffer no trust issues anything. my mother raised me properly and from what i personally experienced growing up my mom did nothing wrong. will i hit my kids? probably not because i will prevent any bad behavior that would lead to getting hit.

[Reincarnate]

It's not just my own background -- there are countless others who come from abusive families. Even "light spanking" or infrequent spanking doesn't really do a whole lot for you. The best way to change behavior is to change the way you communicate/interact.

Again, spanking may be a temporary fix, but it doesn't *teach good behavior* and it causes problems. It just teaches the kid to fear you. Like Rubin0 said, it's a bullying relationship. You want to take the other approach and reward it for doing things you like rather than just focus on the negatives. By incentivizing a kid to perform good deeds to gain reward, you also teach it early on some really valuable skill sets that stick with him/her for life (such as goal-setting, breaking problems down, relating to people better, communicating, respecting others, maintaining a certain quality of life, etc). If you're mean and loud when dealing with your kid, it'll do the same to its peers. On the other hand, being calm and collected will usually lead to that kid ALSO being calm and collected with others. You're in a prime position to set her on a good track, so I heavily advise you not to **** it up with yelling/screaming/hitting/etc.

Change a negative into a positive. Instead of thinking "I want this ****ing brat to stop doing X," think "I want to eliminate X by teaching the kid to do Y instead." Don't get *too far* into the "why"s with kids because it'll usually just open up excuses for argument and more argument escalation, although it does help if your rules are reasonable to begin with (explaining things can help a kid improve rationalization/intelligence early on, especially if they're trying to explain why they're angry). Even if it's something small, give praise for behavior that more closely follows what you want. Not just verbal praise -- combine it with something else. Good rewards usually include rule slackening (letting a kid stay up for 15-20 extra minutes, having a cookie or sweet that they want, getting them a toy, etc).

There are lots of creative ways you can put it all together, but the key is really the mindset you use going into it. If you just mindlessly punish and scream and hit, that won't do shit and you'll be doing your kid a disservice. Take things the other direction and you'll have a much better chance of actually having a close/loving relationship AND the added bonus of better behavior.

[DotKritic]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Little kids fuel their energy on the reactions of others... they're like little trolls.

If you're going to be an Education major, this is what you get to look forward to.

[Rubin0]

Also a "bad" child is often an idle child. If there aren't activities for the little girl to keep her mind and body busy, she is going to get into trouble. Try to figure out activities you and her can play throughout the day to tire her out. Hide and seek, coloring, role playing games (You can play the king and she can be the princess of the house for a day), having a cooking/snack making activity in the kitchen and then making a game out of cleaning up your own mess. This way you are participating in bettering her behavior but you aren't playing a hand in disciplining her. She will like you much better for it and she will probably behave much better. I think you would enjoy her living with you much more if you two bond and yelling at her is not going to promote this.


Also, 1,000th post. Woot.

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

It's not just my own background -- there are countless others who come from abusive families. Even "light spanking" or infrequent spanking doesn't really do a whole lot for you. The best way to change behavior is to change the way you communicate/interact.

Again, spanking may be a temporary fix, but it doesn't *teach good behavior* and it causes problems. It just teaches the kid to fear you. Like Rubin0 said, it's a bullying relationship. You want to take the other approach and reward it for doing things you like rather than just focus on the negatives. By incentivizing a kid to perform good deeds to gain reward, you also teach it early on some really valuable skill sets that stick with him/her for life (such as goal-setting, breaking problems down, relating to people better, communicating, respecting others, maintaining a certain quality of life, etc). If you're mean and loud when dealing with your kid, it'll do the same to its peers. On the other hand, being calm and collected will usually lead to that kid ALSO being calm and collected with others. You're in a prime position to set her on a good track, so I heavily advise you not to **** it up with yelling/screaming/hitting/etc.

Change a negative into a positive. Instead of thinking "I want this ****ing brat to stop doing X," think "I want to eliminate X by teaching the kid to do Y instead." Don't get *too far* into the "why"s with kids because it'll usually just open up excuses for argument and more argument escalation, although it does help if your rules are reasonable to begin with (explaining things can help a kid improve rationalization/intelligence early on, especially if they're trying to explain why they're angry). Even if it's something small, give praise for behavior that more closely follows what you want. Not just verbal praise -- combine it with something else. Good rewards usually include rule slackening (letting a kid stay up for 15-20 extra minutes, having a cookie or sweet that they want, getting them a toy, etc).

There are lots of creative ways you can put it all together, but the key is really the mindset you use going into it. If you just mindlessly punish and scream and hit, that won't do shit and you'll be doing your kid a disservice. Take things the other direction and you'll have a much better chance of actually having a close/loving relationship AND the added bonus of better behavior.

you seem to be ignoring the who personal experience bit i keep mentioning. obviously spanking is not the only thing you do along with hitting i never said thats the -only- thing that should be done to discipline a child.last resort is what ive been saying and everything you and rubin0 said should be done first so hitting should never even happen. the way i was raised isnt the way everyone was raised so obviously the way i view things will be different than the way you would view things

[nois-or-e]

Originally Posted by virus003

Okay so, my 4 year old niece is living in my house most of the time, and I've discovered now that she doesn't listen to anything. She doesn't listen to a single thing, and my sister(her mother) has to always be assertive about things, and it doesn't usually work, she whines about everything and she always lies about things. So today, my sister wanted me to be assertive to her daughter while she gets ready for work. She simply told me just to be straight up assertive with her, like yell and stuff. So I did what I was told, and she practically doesn't listen to A THING I say. I told her to sit down on the couch, and I had to say it about 5,000 times, and every time she actually listens, she just gets right back up and we have to go through the same thing. Then she does the "puppy dog" look and starts purposely crying. My sister has been very stressed out because she doesn't listen, she said that her daughter almost got hit by a truck yesterday because of her listening skills.


I also think this is largely influenced by her father. The parents are split up, so she's always stuck in the middle. Her father is a lazy ass 31 year old still living with his mother, and can get away with anything. Their house is so disgusting, they have two dogs that never get taken care of, and I'm sure their house has plenty of rats. The father is unemployed, he's been like that almost his whole life( which is why I mention he can get away with almost anything). My sister now has a restraining order against him, and he doesn't even pay full childcare, especially when it's needed. But my real question here is, what does it take for kids to listen? At least a kid in the situation of this, or do all kids act like this? I'm the youngest in my family so I wouldn't really know of growing up with any young children in my house.

I haven't perused through the rest of this thread yet, but this post made me rather angry. Your sister obviously has no clue how to parent a child if their response is 'just yell and stuff'.
My daughter is turning 4 in a few months, she is incredibly well-mannered and well-behaved and she has listened to every word i've ever said for a few good reasons.

- I don't yell/scream at her when I want her to do something, I talk to her. She is a small person, not some miniature yelling post that needs to be undermined all the time.
- I explain things to her, and how if she does the right thing it benefits her. Whether that be trying to get her to put her shoes on so we can go out (because we'll stay at home instead) or eating all of her vegetables (because it will keep her healthy and strong)
- I show my daughter respect at all times, even when she is misbehaving. The difference between being firm and in control of a situation and just screaming at them is your level of respect for them imo. In return I get the same respect from her.
- I discipline her by explaining what she has done, and punish her accordingly (usually with the removal of favourite toys/tv rights/having her sit in a time-out till she calms down or to think about what she did). Too many parents are quick to scream and hit their kids imo.

Now I have seen first hand the other side of my situation, as my housemate is also a single parent. But her response to everything is yelling or sending him to bed (where he screams and cries like a little baby for 20mins or so, then storms out demanding to be let out of his room). It all comes down to the parent and their skills in parenting. She sits there at her pc playing WoW all day not giving a ****, so her kid doesn't give a ****.

I could go on for hours about this, but frankly I couldn't be ****ed going through it all. I have put massive amounts of hard work and effort into looking after my daughter on my own and guiding her through life so far so that she will turn out to be a polite and functional member of society. Some people just shouldn't be parents I guess.


tl;dr: Read it. Kids are people, not personal yelling posts. Treat them as such and they will show you respect and behave in return.



Edit: I went up and edited something in the middle of my last sentence, whups.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

you seem to be ignoring the who personal experience bit i keep mentioning. obviously spanking is not the only thing you do along with hitting i never said thats the -only- thing that should be done to discipline a child.last resort is what ive been saying and everything you and rubin0 said should be done first so hitting should never even happen. the way i was raised isnt the way everyone was raised so obviously the way i view things will be different than the way you would view things

do some basic reading and get a better understanding of statistics.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by virus003

Spanking clearly shows that "you don't do this again" type of thing. It doesn't cause psychological damage, the kid's ****ing 4 for christs sake, you think they're gonna remember getting spanked until they're 90 years old? No, it is a lesson being taught physically, and it shouldn't cause trust issues, kids usually get over being spanked within a few minutes and they behave regularly. It's meant to teach a lesson, not cause trust issues.

Were you ever spanked?

Personal experience tiem (yes, I spelled it like that on purpose xd), and this is only one example of misuse of spanking. There have been many times it's been misused on me.

Way back in Elementary school, I said that a book sucked to a classmate and I didn't even mean it. The teacher found out and told me to apologize, and I did. Yet she STILL called home. And yup, you guessed it - my parents were pissed and spanked me. HOWEVER - my dad was charging at me with a ****ing huge spoon and started whacking away at my ass, not giving me any chance to explain what happened. Yeah, punishment all right - that's IMPULSE. That just pissed me off and proved that he doesn't give a shit about what I have to say, and didn't teach me anything but to distrust my dad for not even accepting feedback from his child.

If my dad tried spanking me now, I would personally just beat the shit out of him and write a letter explaining how retarded he is when I actually TRY TO BE REASONABLE. But "being reasonable" doesn't work apparently for parents like that - yelling does. If you're going to spank, give your child a chance to explain anything, and then explain why you're going to spank him/her, only 5 spanks max (to show them what it feels like so they don't want to experience it again, one solid smack could work but NOT running at your child with a gigantic spoon or stick). My dad was completely impulsive, not allowing me to say anything.

Respect is earned, not given freely - "because I'm your father/mother" is not a good enough reason because you are no more special than the billions of others who have been able to have sex and make babies. If you're being unreasonable to your child, you shouldn't expect him/her to automatically conform to you. If he/she does, that is a REALLY bad sign. Be reasonable and don't interrupt/yell when your child is being reasonable to you. I'm sick of seeing kids being treated as property instead of human beings.

[nois-or-e]

K, read through the rest of the thread.

ITT: people who have absolutely no idea about the topic at hand sharing their advice.

[virus003]

Originally Posted by nois-or-e

K, read through the rest of the thread.

ITT: people who have absolutely no idea about the topic at hand sharing their advice.

You have to understand that you're the only parent that has posted in this thread. People were just sharing their thoughts and giving advice about the topic.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by nois-or-e

tl;dr: Read it. Kids are people, not personal yelling posts. Treat them as such and they will show you respect and behave in return.

Also to address this, I completely agree - the parents probably didn't like how they were treated either and the advantage they have is that they no longer have to go through it. However, they're able to do it on their children! Power and control, man - especially if your child is much smaller than you are.

Respect isn't just given automatically, like I mentioned before.

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

do some basic reading and get a better understanding of statistics.

jesus christ you are dense

[robertsona]

who cares are you doing that thing that you did with the gay marriage thread

[ghost-]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

yeah ok good luck spitting in the face of well-tested psychology

dude your well tested psychology doesn't work ALL the time. In wc's situation, it didn't work out how you wish it would all over the world. Sorry man but stop being a dick and think about this shit. I was spanked as a child and I damn well learned right from wrong and how to respect my mother and others.

What I'm saying is, your psychology doesn't always work. Spanking doesn't always work. It doesn't go one way or the other.

[who_cares973]

Originally Posted by robertsona

who cares are you doing that thing that you did with the gay marriage thread

what are you talking about?????????

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

jesus christ you are dense

no, i understand perfectly well what you're saying, and i'm not sure why you keep retaliating against what i'm saying even though my advice is 100% spot-on. yes, we both agree that hitting is a last resort (although i go as far as to say it isn't needed at all whatsoever), move on.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by ghost-

dude your well tested psychology doesn't work ALL the time. In wc's situation, it didn't work out how you wish it would all over the world. Sorry man but stop being a dick and think about this shit. I was spanked as a child and I damn well learned right from wrong and how to respect my mother and others.

What I'm saying is, your psychology doesn't always work. Spanking doesn't always work. It doesn't go one way or the other.

yeah and evolution is just a theory

it's disturbing how many people in this thread are pro-spanking. then again, this IS ffr.