Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[tsugomaru]

Because I play using items. However, using items is clearly cheating. It must be some kind of huge glitch.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Because I play using items. However, using items is clearly cheating. It must be some kind of huge glitch.

~Tsugomaru

Using items isn't cheating. Its just not in competitive play.

[tsugomaru]

thank you for clearing that up

i was totally confused with the difference there

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

thank you for clearing that up

i was totally confused with the difference there

~Tsugomaru

No problem

[zidart]

the point is... glitches are that things that were not meant to be in the game and that "competitive" gamers take advantage of that just because they can't win with the normal rules and techniques of the game

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by zidart

the point is... glitches are that things that were not meant to be in the game and that "competitive" gamers take advantage of that just because they can't win with the normal rules and techniques of the game

Meant to be in the game.

Is that seriously your argument?

""competitive" gamers take advantage of that just because they can't win with the normal rules and techniques of the game"

Was that serious?

[zidart]

Originally Posted by l2awr

Meant to be in the game.

Is that seriously your argument?

""competitive" gamers take advantage of that just because they can't win with the normal rules and techniques of the game"

Was that serious?

yes isn't true that some pro melee players are not gonna play brawl because it doesn't have wavedash??? and also a long time ago you said that maybe someone is gonna find more glitches in brawl....ergo or you really need glitches or you just can't stand playing like meant to be

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by zidart

yes isn't true that some pro melee players are not gonna play brawl because it doesn't have wavedash??? and also a long time ago you said that maybe someone is gonna find more glitches in brawl....ergo or you really need glitches or you just can't stand playing like meant to be

I have no idea. All of my competitive friends can't wait to play brawl. We all even chipped in to buy a Japanese Wii and Japanese version of brawl so that we can play a month before it comes out. Just because there aren't any glitches(yet) doesn't make it non competitive. Yes it will close the skill gap a bit, but there are still mind games, predicting your opponent, knowing your character and the physics enough to pull off combos and from what I heard there is L-Canceling, but not with the L button.

"Because the game creator did not intend glitches to be in the game." is a bad argument because those glitches can make the game better and add a greater depth into the game. Which in turn has competitive players play and practice more to master those extra techniques to increase their skill gaps between other players.

I'm more than sure a game creator wants his players to put more time into his game.

[MystictheHedgehog]

Sorry, but I tend to side with Squeek on this one.
We have established the fact it is a glitch, yes. But your definition explains it clearly to me.

Originally Posted by Relambrien

A glitch is merely an unintended result of game code.

UNINTENDED result of game code. It wasn't supposed to be there. The developers and programmers did not mean for it to be there. This is where your SC comparison becomes invalid. Guard Impact was intended to be in the game. Wavedashing and such, was not.

Yes, I do know how to wavedash. But I don't use it at all, just for that point. It isn't supposed to be there, why try to exploit the glitch? Why not just play purely, instead of exploiting the glitches in the game to make your play better?

But no, I am not condemning glitches to never be used, sometimes they are fun to just mess around with. But not when playing competitively.

Just my opinion though.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by l2awr

I have no idea. All of my competitive friends can't wait to play brawl. We all even chipped in to buy a Japanese Wii and Japanese version of brawl so that we can play a month before it comes out. Just because there aren't any glitches(yet) doesn't make it non competitive. Yes it will close the skill gap a bit, but there are still mind games, predicting your opponent, knowing your character and the physics enough to pull off combos and from what I heard there is L-Canceling, but not with the L button.

"Because the game creator did not intend glitches to be in the game." is a bad argument because those glitches can make the game better and add a greater depth into the game. Which in turn has competitive players play and practice more to master those extra techniques to increase their skill gaps between other players.

I'm more than sure a game creator wants his players to put more time into his game.

yeah but he didn't want glitches wich is why he eliminated them and yeah that's why he made tons and tons of modes to put more time into the game....but no glitches are not techniques they are just that errors, mistakes that YOU take advantage and call everyone that doesn't like them noobs for not using them, and i agree that glitches can be compared to esteroids

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by zidart

yeah but he didn't want glitches wich is why he eliminated them and yeah that's why he made tons and tons of modes to put more time into the game....but no glitches are not techniques they are just that errors, mistakes that YOU take advantage and call everyone that doesn't like them noobs for not using them, and i agree that glitches can be compared to esteroids

They probably can be compared to steroids because you know steroids do not make you win games. It helps you increase your strength faster which can make a sport much more competitive. I'm sure they aren't healthy though which is probably why they are banned from athletics. I never really looked into steroids so I won't argue about it. Although there are debates on whether or not they should be allowed.

Also I don't find "modes" fun. I don't play smash brothers to play the modes or single player lol...I play to compete.

[zidart]

Originally Posted by l2awr

They probably can be compared to steroids because you know steroids do not make you win games. It helps you increase your strength faster which can make a sport much more competitive. I'm sure they aren't healthy though which is probably why they are banned from athletics. I never really looked into steroids so I won't argue about it. Although there are debates on whether or not they should be allowed.

Also I don't find "modes" fun. I don't play smash brothers to play the modes or single player lol...I play to compete.

woow then you are the one that it's not trying to practice more with the game or get the 100% out of it XD.. because "modes" are almost 90% of the game

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by zidart

woow then you are the one that it's not trying to practice more with the game or get the 100% out of it XD.. because "modes" are almost 90% of the game

Modes aren't practice...and hell no I'm not trying to get the "most" out of the game. I'm trying to be better at it than everyone that plays it so I NEVER lose.

[tsugomaru]

Wavedash Argument Brawl

Here we go.

~Tsugomaru

[zidart]

Originally Posted by l2awr

Modes aren't practice...and hell no I'm not trying to get the "most" out of the game. I'm trying to be better at it than everyone that plays it so I NEVER lose.

ok let me ask you something.... do you play without items and in simple stages??? and if so do you still consider yourself the best??? and also do you know that even in 4V4 battles the game is pretty much random?

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by zidart

ok let me ask you something.... do you play without items and in simple stages??? and if so do you still consider yourself the best??? and also do you know that even in 4V4 battles the game is pretty much random?

I don't consider myself the best out of any setting.

[Matthew4444]

Originally Posted by l2awr

Modes aren't practice...and hell no I'm not trying to get the "most" out of the game. I'm trying to be better at it than everyone that plays it so I NEVER lose.

This guy needs to calm down!


You know, not everyone plays for the sole purpose of trying to prove something. Most people play to have fun, win or lose. If two people are on a level in which they must use advanced techniques to compete with each other, well then they might very well find that fun. If an expert is against a bunch of lesser players, restrictions add challenge, and challenge often adds to the fun of it.

Really, playing purely for the rush of competition is more like training and competing than having actual fun.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Matthew4444

This guy needs to calm down!


You know, not everyone plays for the sole purpose of trying to prove something. Most people play to have fun, win or lose. If two people are on a level in which they must use advanced techniques to compete with each other, well then they might very well find that fun. If an expert is against a bunch of lesser players, restrictions add challenge, and challenge often adds to the fun of it.

Really, playing purely for the rush of competition is more like training and competing than having actual fun.

I LOVE competition like its a drug. What can I say.

When I use to play starcraft competitively and I lose to someone worse than me. I seriously would get so worked up that I would dream of it and just think of all the things I did wrong. I love to compete and I love to win.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by l2awr

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever punched someone in the face, then taunted them for not knowing how to guard their face?

That's using a technique against people who don't know how to do them, isn't it?

That's what it feels like when someone uses a technique that verges on the edge of cheating in order to improve their game, whether it be a video game or a sport. That's also a technique that is totally acceptable in one practice and totally unacceptable in another. If you were a professional boxer, for example, punching your opponent in the face during a match is not only allowed, it's necessary.

This is the distinction I'm trying to make here! I don't think it's an acceptable practice to utilize glitches in a non-competitive environment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go ahead and use your glitches. Use them all day long. I do not care. Just don't do it against random people. You'll just be punching them in the face for no reason. What's the point of using a glitch against someone who doesn't know how to use it? To win? Why do you care if you win or not against someone you'll never even know? Random Brawl matches are 100% anonymous. All you're doing by using glitches in Brawl is boosting your own ego.

Originally Posted by Relambrien

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Hell no.

I'm not looking down on your playstyle. I am just saying, don't do it against random people. I've seen what exploiting glitches in mainstream games can do for the game. Have you heard of how many people absolutely refuse to play Mario Kart DS online because of the snakers? I can give you a list of thousands.

I don't mind if you exploit glitches at home, at a friend's house, online with friends, at competitions, etc. Go right ahead. I realize that as a result of this (and other things like keeping items off, but that's a horse that's been dead for ages now), I will never be able to compete in Brawl. And I'm fine with that. I've established that my playstyle prohibits me from playing this game competitively.

A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game

There are more demographics in the gaming industry than just "those who play to win, no matter what" and "those who play to have fun". In fact, since I'm neither of those, I'm either an anomaly or someone you just didn't think about. It's the latter. I'm a gamer. There are millions of people out there just like me. People who don't race to see who can beat a game first and people who don't play for 10 minutes at a time. Gamers.

Don't ever call me a casual gamer again. Yes, I do play Minesweeper, and I sure as hell guarantee my times are better than yours. That's one game I actually do play competitively in, albeit only in my small group of friends. I still have the best posted time on FFR from what I remember. 142 on Expert. Good luck.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You totally missed my analogy. Practicing the sport in your backyard isn't competitive playing! Playing against random people in a match IS competitive playing. See my boxing analogy above.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

Sakurai is endorsing all play. If you get your kicks out of winning in a match and giving your opponent no chance to even compete, like snakers in Mario Kart DS, then please, inflate your ego. Just so you know, Mario Kart DS has turned from "who knows how to pick up items, throw them at the right time, and retain a lead" to "who can press LRLRLR while holding the shoulder buttons faster than the other guy" In a match with 7 normal racers and one snaker, the snaker will always win. ALWAYS. You could throw lightning, blue shells, whatever. The snaker doesn't even have to pick up items, which is the core gameplay element of the game. He'll always win.

I'll admit right now that I know practically nothing about wavedashing. It's something that enables you to move faster. That's all I know. Which makes it pretty much exactly the same as snaking, just in a different context. In item matches, whoever can run to the item the fastest will get it and have the upper hand. In close-combat, whoever can quickly get in and out of the frey will have the upper hand. In a big stage, whoever can get from one side to the other in order to finish off an opponent will have the upper hand. What wavedashing does is nullify some of the character balance that existed in the original game. Let's say every character has 10 points to spend in various stats similar to the 5 points in Mario Kart. Bowser has about 9 in Power, but only 1 in Speed. With wavedashing, that Power doesn't drop, but speed increases. This shifts the balance. Suddenly a character with 1 in Power and 9 in Speed is useless. Other classes can match his speed and even overtake it. You've exceeded the scale of 10. To me, that's a big enough glitch to warrant a cause for removal. And hey, as it turns out, Sakurai and his team actually DID remove wavedashing. Probably for exactly the same reasons I just said!

Squeek's bottom line:

I would absolutely love to play this game with anyone on this website who posts on the forums. I would absolutely hate to turn it into a contest. Worse, a contest to see who can mash certain button combinations to slightly improve the performance they get from their character to gain a competitive edge against people who really don't care to whittle down the skin on their thumbs just to move 1/100th of a second faster.

NOT Casual. NOT Competitive. Just Gaming.

[Matthew4444]

Well actually, it seems to be more the fast characters that get faster from wavedashing. But anyways, I seem to recall it being used more for mindgames and screwing with your opponent. Which, of course, isn't something you should be doing against someone who has no idea what they are doing, unless you are trying to get them to play at your level.

You know, I never really thought about it before: if you use techniques that are slightly more advanced than what your opponent that you may play often (say, a friend), wouldn't you be essentially training them?