Konami sues over Rock Band

[hoochan]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

No, you said it quite right. I, however, countered it by pointing out that monopolies are the worst thing possible for the consumer. The company might make more money if they're all that's available, but the consumer will be getting a subpar product at a premium price.

No, you did not understand what I meant. I have to reword it but I'm just dropping it because frankly, I couldn't care less.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

I can't read legal nuance but it seems to me the idea is to have a somewhat random stat generation going on among every enemy on screen in a 3-D environment.

This (and what's actually in the patent) is a LOT more specific than

Battle engines wherein you fight multiple enemies

which is what you first said. IMO what's in that patent is definitely a completely reasonable thing to patent, which is a very specific way of implementing an multi-enemy action battle system.

I've seen Dynasty Warriors played and it's not any more different from God of War or Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers as DDR is from Rock Band, anyway.

[kcfp_Ice]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

This (and what's actually in the patent) is a LOT more specific than



which is what you first said. IMO what's in that patent is definitely a completely reasonable thing to patent, which is a very specific way of implementing an multi-enemy action battle system.

I've seen Dynasty Warriors played and it's not any more different from God of War or Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers as DDR is from Rock Band, anyway.

Dynasty warriors has been around longer than God of War anyway.
Plus it's a lot better IMO.

Lord of the rings wasn't really a big hit till the ps2, but had a few SNES games.

In all honesty, Konami is just a money hungry corporation.
But then again, what company isn't these days?

It's a sad sad world.

[Afrobean]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

Ever play Crazy Taxi? Ever notice the giant green arrow on the top of the screen telling you where to go? That's patented.

You know, you're not helping your argument by suggesting that an arrow pointing the way you need to go in a video game is a legitimate thing to consider an original idea. I think SMB3 had arrows indicating which way you need to go. As well as basically every ****ing game ever that might be confusing as to which direction one should travel in to get to their desired goal.

Using a knob on a video game controller? Patented. Regardless of intent for use.

Uh oh, guys, I used my Wii mote to simulate a door knob. Who owns the patent on that because I think Nintendo needs to give them millions of dollars for their great and totally original idea!

Frankly, though, that idea is pretty ****ty. The only sort of controller a knob would even be logical on is, humorously enough, an electronic instrument controller (such as a turn table or guitar).

Battle engines wherein you fight multiple enemies? Patented. (Dynasty Warriors. Ever wonder why there are no other games in this genre?)

What?

There are tons of games where you can fight multiple enemies. In fact, the only sort of game I can think of where you cannot are games in which the idea of 1 on 1 is forced, like 2D fighting games with only 2 competitors. Hell, the very idea harkens back to the age of the side scrolling brawler. Man, that Power Rangers Super Legends game that came out a while back totally ripped off Dynasty Warrior's unique idea of being able to fight 2 enemies at once ****.

By the way, I think maybe you should pick up a Guantlet game some time. I have Dark Legacy on PS2, and it's pretty good, but I think I'd prefer my copy of Gauntlet 2 on NES.

Rumble using small, triangular stacks of heavy metal rotating around an axis? Patented. (Immersion)

Yeah, but you see, that's a whole other thing. The patent exists for a method of production to achieve a concept, NOT the concept itself. If someone owned a patent for "input device that vibrates as an output method", that would be ****ty.

Wireless controllers? Patented.

The standards by which they work is reasonable, but the very idea of it is not. Wireless is the next step for everything that works from a distance. Taking something with a wire and thinking "this would be great if it didn't have a wire" is not an original idea.

Slow / Auto controllers? Patented.

Gasp. Why the hell are these features included on every single 3rd party controller ever if the 3rd party company has to pay some other company just to use the concept?

HUD? Patented.

That's a ****ing interface. You can't claim that **** is an original idea, IT IS A ****ING METHOD OF INTERFACE. I mean, if you had some unqiue way of handling the issue, or some special technique or look to it, then sure, but what the ****. I should come up with a bunch of simple **** like that that is already a common element of many existing products, file a patent on it, then sue the **** outta everyone.

And for anyone jackass thinking their clever, get the **** out. The above paragraph's ending remarks aren't meant to be taken literally.

Dynasty Warriors' genre is completely different from every example I've seen in this thread.

From reading your excerpt there, the only thing they did that is the slightest bit unique is to make the colors change on the enemies depending upon what their stats are. This, however, can be seen in numerous other games (particularly old ones which would reuse graphics with a different palette to save memory on the cartridges), although I suppose it might be hardcoded into many of them.

No, you did not understand what I meant.

Yes, I did. I understand everything, always. Why the hell are you still here saying things if you "couldn't care less". Stop taking sideways slander at me and get outta here, or better yet, stop being passive aggressive, and talk things through thoroughly.

Lord of the rings wasn't really a big hit till the ps2, but had a few SNES games.

Go away, please. Lord of the Rings gained success in recent years due to the film. Any video game which came before that is clearly unrelated and has nothing to do with anything but to prove how little you're paying attention. The discussion here is about how Konami is trying to squash Rock Band for not paying them to use their idea, as well as the idea that the general concept of having to pay for such an elemental idea is detrimental to the free market, as well as to the product in the consumer's hands.

ps btw take a look at the patent Squeek mentioned about Dynasty Warriors. It goes into the deep nitty gritty of how it is processed from the hardware's perspective. Would this mean that if accused of patent violation, one would need to turn over the source code of their project to prove they're not using the same low level processing techniques? What the ****?

[Squeek]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

All video game patents are like that.

If you think that's sick, check out this one I just found: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6604008

Yeah, Microsoft patented scores not predefined by the game itself. Basically, anything other than Mario jumping on a Goomba's head being worth 100 points. If I am reading this thing correctly, it means that Tony Hawk games fall into this category, since trick scores are based on the trick itself + how long you hold the trick + combos into other tricks.

Check out this one: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/6,200,138

Sega patented the idea of other characters getting out of your way if you're approaching them.

Try this one: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/5,718,632

Namco patented minigames being played during load screens.

I don't know what your problem is with me, Afro. If you really care, go talk to your congressman/woman. I'm with you in saying that these patents are stupid as hell, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it except hope that Harmonix can find some loophole. Just so you know, the last company to get the patent-hammer from Konami was a little company called Roxor Games. AKA the ITG guys. They settled, and now Konami gets a portion of their profits every year. Sucks for them.

Anyway, I'm bored of this, so I'll give you my sources.

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050531/dannenberg_01.shtml

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070119/dannenberg_02.shtml

[Izzy]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

If we all pretend this place is crap then they wont even bother. Its flawless.

If i was konami id sue rockband... Just saying. Free money?

[Afrobean]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

I don't have anything against you Squeek, but you're defending this **** like it makes sense and is good. It is absurd.

And really, now, I think you should consider some other legal action Konami has taken in the past before throwing out the ITG trump. You might not have heard about it, but I did mention it. Konami tried suing Andamiro, creators of PIU. PIU is a dance panel game similar to DDR, except that gameplay has 5 buttons instead of 4, and a little bit of differences in game style and scoring. From what I read briefly about it, it sounds as though the only thing that happened as a result of the suit was that PIU stopped using hold arrows. PIU is still around and kicking.

Also recall: ITG was literally a DDR clone (created from a StepMania engine, an engine created for no greater reason than to be a free DDR for the computer), created to fill the hole Konami had left in the American market. Rock Band (coming from it's spiritual successor Guitar Hero) was a simple music rhythm game no more related directly to Konami's work in the genre than Metroid Prime is related to Doom 3.

EDIT: browsed a small bit of the link Squeek posted:

So, for example, if your video game is an automobile racing game, you might use familiar concepts such as turbo boosting your car, damaging your car when collisions occur, and displaying a racer's progress on a map of the race track. However, maybe your particular racing game has a novel way of granting or implementing the boost; maybe your game has a unique way of handling or showing damage; or maybe your game uses a novel approach to displaying the race track progress. Whatever novel aspect you've added, if that aspect is something that will help set your game apart from others, and help sell your game in the marketplace, then that novel aspect may be protectable by a patent.

Exactly my point. They're saying if you have a unique approach to it, it's patentable. What Konami has done is, in keeping in line with the example, patented the idea of having a video game where you control an automobile.

[Izzy]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

Afrobean, while you are completely right that doesn't change anything. These companies pay people to try and sue whatever they can in order to make money.

[Relambrien]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

Dynasty Warriors' genre is completely different from every example I've seen in this thread.



I can't read legal nuance but it seems to me the idea is to have a somewhat random stat generation going on among every enemy on screen in a 3-D environment. Most games with multiple enemies at once are all just clones of each other.

I said before, I cannot read this stuff and I don't claim to be an expert. I do know that I have never seen a game that is even remotely like Dynasty Warriors and the reason is probably because of this patent.

Okay, -that's- better. Lemme take a stab at reading the legal jargon.

"There is a battle system that allows individual characters within a large number to have different attack and defense stats. The position of all the characters is calculated by the game within a specific time period [note: every map in DW has a time limit, right? I think this is what it refers to]. Allied characters also have their positions calculated by the game, with relative attack and defense stats based on what character it is, and each character's color changes along with their attack."

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to patent. Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding.

[Tps222]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

Harmonix is in a lot of trouble with this one.

I knew Activison had patent rights when they made Guitar Hero, and then when Harmonix left, I had assumed that they too must have obtained them as well.

Re-reading over the patents, Squeek and Afro are both right. The patent is broad enough to cover most products released in the market, but specific enough on how said products work to possibly not be deemed invalid, as Shash was mentioning.

Also, to all of you people who cry the ol' "It's not right, fight the man!. Always trying to screw us over". You're all idiots who have no idea how the law works, and you're ruining today's society in general with your ignorance. Go do some research before you talk out your ass.

This case is definitely going to be interesting though, and will serve as a good precedent for the entire rhythm gaming industry. Personally, I don't think Harmonix will win this one, nor do I think they will be ordered to halt production of the game. I expect some heavy legal fines.

Although, as others have said, they should just settle out of court.

[Afrobean]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

This case is definitely going to be interesting though, and will serve as a good precedent for the entire Konami gaming industry.

I hope not. Do you honestly believe a patent which covers an entire genre of video games can possibly be fair?

What if other forms of media had patents issued on specific genres? What if you chose what genre of movie you wanted to watch based on what company made the film? What if you chose what sort of book you wanted to read based on the publisher? What if recording labels were split on genre lines and if you wanted a certain genre of music, you'd have to lock in listening to a single label? What about cross genre endeavors? Musicians who perform music that touches on hip hop and rock? Film production companies who make movies that touch multiple different genres? Video games that include elements of RPGs and action platformers into a FPS?

This isn't a "screw the man" type of thing. This is a "this system is not right if it would limit an entire genre of a medium".

[Izzy]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

I don't think they are going to win this one. I think its just to scare companies from trying to steal konami ideas.

[Tps222]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

Oh, I agree with you that it isn't really that fair. My comment about the whole "Fight the man" thing was directed to the people who have no idea what the lawsuit is about.

While it does not seem fair, it is completely legal so far. It isn't patenting the genre at all, only the method to which all companies have approached rhythm gaming thus far. Ideas and hardware are most certainly patentable, as you know, and that is all Konami has done. Patent their ideas and their hardware, and on decently specific terms in my opinion. The argument is going to be, for invalidation's sake, in the possibility of their being other ways to approach the genre that doesn't violate the patents Konami has, which would take away some of the anti-trust heat.

[Tokzic]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

PUTTING A PATENT ON AN ABSTRACT CONCEPT IS TOTALLY FINE AND NOT UTTER NONSENSE AT ALL, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS

How do you people even remember how to breathe?

I'm not contesting the fact that the patents exist, but I am contesting the fact that the patents are allowed to exist. Almost everything that Squeek pointed out is patented is bull****. Thinking up an interesting new concept to gameplay (or maybe it's not new, but who cares, unclaimed territory is unclaimed territory) and then saying NOBODY ELSE IS ALLOWED TO DO THIS is completely and utterly ****ing dumb.

Hey, I just wrote a book about robots. I'M COPYRIGHTING THEM. NONE OF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO WRITE BOOKS ABOUT ROBOTS NOW. SUCK IT. What? How does **** like this get through? The patent system is supposed to stop people from blatantly copying other people's inventions and taking away from their rightful profit. But when there are loose concepts that people are BLARINGLY OBVIOUS as the progress of gaming pushes forward (I'm looking at you, arrow patent - this was when 3D was fresh), you'd have to be a completely ignorant meatbag to let things like this go through.

When I write software for a game, I shouldn't have to look to make sure I'm not stepping on any patent toes. Patenting enormous broad concepts that aren't even concrete is just an excuse to sue other people when they inevitably think of things you haven't thought of that barely fit into their patent, take their money, then steal the new ideas for their own. Just look at DDR X. Bull****, bull****, bull****.

So don't write any books about robots. I thought of it first, you're stealing my idea.

[Shashakiro]

Re: Konami sues over Rock Band

It isn't patenting the genre at all, only the method to which all companies have approached rhythm gaming thus far.

Konami's patent is on music simulation games where you push buttons.

How the **** do you have a music game where you DON'T PUSH BUTTONS?

The only one I can think of is Elite Beat Agents and that's only doable because of the platform it's on.