Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

I think crimes can be considered punishable by death, hate on me

Why?

1. It's crazy expensive and costs way more than just putting the bastard in jail for life.

2. It's final. If an innocent man is jailed, at least he can still be set free later. An innocent man who's put to death can't be resurrected. Enough people have been released from death row based on new evidence to suggest that the death penalty would result in a lot of mistakes.

3. It hasn't empirically been shown to be a deterrent, either (if anything, rates tend to be higher AFAIK).

4. What is the actual point of it? Punishment/revenge? I don't think this is particularly useful once you get right down into it. It also perpetuates this oversimplified idea of "eye for an eye" in society, especially where killing/violence is concerned.

5. For the same level of crime, after normalization, poor people suffer the brunt of death penalty laws. For something so serious, this is a big problem.

That all being said, I don't think it's necessarily a hard-set rule. I can come up with scenarios in which the death penalty is probably the way to go, but I have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to get there. Most of the time I see life-in-prison as the superior alternative.

[Mollocephalus]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Arf, is it too late to debate abortion?

Basically i agree with what has been said, if you care about not having abortions, instead of shutting down clinics you should invest on education. Let me tell you, only in bigot states inside USA there are arguments for abstinence until marriage. No other developed country in the world has it (altho a lot of UNDERDEVELOPED countries have it, which should give you a hint). That is for a good reason, considering sexuality is a fundamental part of people's life. Now, regardless of which is your threshold for human being vs not human being, think about the impact an abortion ban will rise.

1. I'm sure you must have studied it in american history, it is widely known that in the early decades of the XX century, when abortions were difficult and mostly illegal, there were a lot of orphans which turned out being a societal stigma. These orphans without education and/or any opportunity in life often turned out being gangsters. So, having someone keep their baby only to give it away for adoption is already a really bad idea, both for the costs of it to the society and for the potential social problems it may later cause. Criminals are usually former poor, uneducated and socially isolated guys. If you put a human being in such a situation that makes it likely for that person become a drag on society, it seems like you should rethink your options.

2. As it was said, if you ban abortions they will happen anyway. And without a real doctor in most circumstances, the result will be higher chances of the mother having permanent damage or even dying in the process. You'll be fueling a black market of amateur aborters which will for sure not pay taxes, unlike abortion clinics. And even if you put penalities for those who abort illegally, do you think it would change anything? You will never know (and neither will i) what it's like to have something in the womb you didn't want. It can drive you insane, and similarly to what has been said about death sentence not making crimes less likely, penalities on unauthorized abortions wouldn't stop a desperate woman.

3. I'm not sure if what aldentron says is correct but generally abortion clinics are also sexual health clinics. If you shut them down, where will people go if they have a sexual problem? You may not be aware, but due to the complexity of a woman's body, there so much more to keep an eye on. Does it sound right to you to take away even more health services from them?

You can argue all you want on the other aspects of abortions, but these are facts and if you really are thoughtfully anti-abortion you should logically be pro-sex education and pro-contraceptives AT LEAST. And be aware of the grave consequences a decision like that would bring. But if you want my blunt opinion, being anti-abortion just means being anti-women and ultimately does only damage to the society - just because you are so fixed on putting every conceived stub of a human body on the same level as a sentient person. I could tell you that a lot of fertilized eggs are aborted by the woman's body spontaneously. I'm sure you witty guys can come up with ingenious ways to stop self abortions so everyone will live!!

On death penality
A wrong execution can't be undone. Do we have to say more? Inmates are a huge cost for any country, which makes me think the only way you can do something about is forced labour for everyone who is in jail. Basically the idea is they should produce wealth for AT LEAST their sustainance cost. As stated earlier, death row is another ridiculous (and worthless) cost, on top of that it won't even stop a desperate person - a criminal is often a desperate person, when not mentally unstable or socially compromised by its background. You can't tame it with the promise of the utmost punishment. And when you execute someone who is innocent... well. You know what it means. Death sentence is just legalized murder, and nothing more.

[Cavernio]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

I don't know why many pro-lifers pretend a fetus is less than it is.
I don't know why, under what many pro-lifers advocate, that if the father wanted to have a child but the mother didn't, that it's rightfully the mother's choice to abort it. (Given her health is safe and sex was consensual, etc.) A single father is just as capable of raising a kid as a single mother.
Abortion shouldn't be about the mother and her body and letting her do what she wants to it. It's about the fact that you're making a freaking person and it's growing inside a woman. It is not an unnecessary organ that's merely a bundle of cells, it's not like a tumor in a woman. Birth just happens to be a very easy, obvious landmark for when a person becomes an individual. Realistically, passing through a birth canal doesn't magically infuse sentience, life, a spirit, etc.
Abortion isn't something that people take lightly, and ideally any parent(s) who chooses to get an abortion should be well-informed about all their options and about the stages of the fetus' development. Closing abortion clinics would not help that goal. And as aldentron pointed out, abortion clinics double as women's sexual health clinics.

There are instances when I think it's cruel to not have an abortion, something like known, fatal diseases, where the baby will die, seemingly painfully, within a few months time. Some trisomies for instance.
Adoption for a kid from birth, in north American society at least, seems like it would always be an option, what with the number of couples who have problems conceiving. That's entirely speculation on my part though.
If adoption from birth isn't an option, and you know you're not going to be able to look after a child properly, that there's a good chance they'll end up in a bad foster system because you're, say, a drug addict, that's an instance where I'd seriously consider an abortion.
I mean, there are a number of other instances where I don't think abortion is the wrong choice, or where it could be the right choice.
But in general, I don't like the idea of abortion. It's highly selfish and borders on murder, but mainly I just dislike most pro-choicer's definitive stance that a fetus is 'merely a bundle of cells, therefore it's just a part of a woman and she has a right to remove it'. Realistically though, I'd guess most abortions are done on young women who are scared to let most people know they're pregnant, and who fear for their safety, livelihood and being an outcast.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

The "bundle of cells" argument is meant to illustrate that it's not yet "human" (with respect to utility constructs), even if it has all the necessary material genetically. It's a bad choice of words and I would encourage people to stop saying it, because even now, we're just bundles of cells and whatnot.

My general point is that until something becomes sentient, I don't think it's morally wrong to abort it. I've yet to see a single convincing argument to show otherwise. Every response I see is "Well, a fertilized egg will become a child eventually."

So what? Whether I abort it early or simply not have sex in the first place, either way I'm not taking sentience/utility away from something that has experienced it before, nor am I causing anyone pain.

[Cavernio]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

We don't know when sentience happens. And I still wouldn't call a non-sentient fetus as a regular part of a woman's body therefore it's her choice to do what she wants to it. Besides which, such a way of thinking about a fetus gives men absolutely no control over their own reproduction. I'd say that's against human rights.

But using the sentience argument also means we shouldn't eat or kill animals. Ultimately it's not just that a fetus may have some basic form of sentience at some point (it kinda has to, if we believe a newborn is sentient), is that it's human sentience. Which implies that there's something special about humanity itself, sentient or not.

If you don't know if someone is alive or not, the most moral stance is to assume that they are, rather than take a chance and say they're not. Same goes for sentience.

[Calcium Deposit]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Babies aren't sentient (yet), but you don't see many people willing to kill those (...yet).
I would support this by saying they (usually) aren't self aware or capable of not shitting themselves for a few years.

Abortion is clearly a topic of where to draw the line. The problem is that line would be pretty much arbitrary unless scientists discover souls really do exist and can pinpoint exactly when they enter the fetus. But until that happens abortions really shouldn't be used as a matter of convenience and only in emergency situations.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

We don't know when sentience happens.

We know which pieces of the brain correspond to things like, say, conscious pain -- and a lot of these components form in the third trimester. Consciousness/sentience in general is an emergent property. First two trimesters don't even really warrant a spectrum argument, even.

But using the sentience argument also means we shouldn't eat or kill animals. Ultimately it's not just that a fetus may have some basic form of sentience at some point (it kinda has to, if we believe a newborn is sentient), is that it's human sentience. Which implies that there's something special about humanity itself, sentient or not.

This is nonsense. We eat and kill animals just fine. We still try to do it humanely to minimize suffering.

If you don't know if someone is alive or not, the most moral stance is to assume that they are, rather than take a chance and say they're not. Same goes for sentience.

Except we do have ways to dictate the "consciousness and utility interpretation profile" of a growing fetus. You're invoking argument-from-ignorance, here.



EDIT: Here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_perception

In other words, if you abort before the third trimester (especially a few weeks before at latest -- and keep in mind that a vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester), you're probably pretty safe in avoiding any conflicts with sentience or pain concerns.

Some 1% of abortions take place after 22 weeks, and most of those are due to extreme/last-minute medical concerns/problems that arise.

[Aldentron]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

This is nonsense. We eat and kill animals just fine. We still try to do it humanely to minimize suffering.

there's nothing humane about eating an animal that you never saw alive IMHO

[Syhto]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

if you're ok with having an abortion then don't have the fucking kid

most teen "moms" miscarriage from alcohol and drug abuse anyways, you have to realize that either way you're fucked. sex health clinics are good for distributing contraceptives, but abortion shouldn't be considered a contraceptive. abortion should always be a last, last resort. I don't think willy nilly abortions are ok. But I do believe you should have the right to have one. But dont' give out free abortions on the corner, cuz that's just asking for people not to THINK about their actions. god knows so many kids have been born and neglected and grew up, or didn't, having a rather unfulfilling childhood and a difficult life. it's not fair to the damn fetus to let them go to a mom that thinks its ok to vacuum baby guts out of their uterus just because they didn't feel like going on birth control. idk something like that I'm a little drunk but I think my message is clear

abortion is bad, babies are good, fetuses are unborn children, and deserve a chance at life, but sometimes people just aren't ready. that's when abortions are good. because who the fuck is going to take care of that child if you won't put the time in to really love it. you don't love your baby if you really consider killing it. so don't make it super easy to get abortions left and right but at least give people the option if it does exist and circumstances permit

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Unfortunately, shit happens

[Syhto]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

it has been found that love is the primary factor in the healthy development of a baby/child, and communication is key. most people that would have an abortion have low self esteem or problems with themselves that cause them to want to have no kid. I could easily argue and say yeah, having a kid teaches you lessons and brings these problems to the surface. it can make you realize how wrong you were if you stick with pregnancy. really I'm against abortion altogether. But i'm tired of hearing about x person having their nth abortion. Would you stop mocking yourself and life and just get it together already

if you don't have it together don't have a baby because you are still too much of a child if your resolve rests on !death!

[Choofers]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

there's nothing humane about eating an animal that you never saw alive IMHO

who cares, steak is good

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

sex health clinics are good for distributing contraceptives, but abortion shouldn't be considered a contraceptive. abortion should always be a last, last resort. I don't think willy nilly abortions are ok. But I do believe you should have the right to have one. But dont' give out free abortions on the corner, cuz that's just asking for people not to THINK about their actions. god knows so many kids have been born and neglected and grew up, or didn't, having a rather unfulfilling childhood and a difficult life. it's not fair to the damn fetus to let them go to a mom that thinks its ok to vacuum baby guts out of their uterus just because they didn't feel like going on birth control. idk something like that I'm a little drunk but I think my message is clear

People aren't out getting abortions willy-nilly or using it as a form of birth control (that's a widely-propagated myth). Abortion, for a vast majority of people, IS a last resort. Half of all women who get abortions actually used contraception. The problem is that sometimes shit breaks/doesn't work, or women mis-time their pills, or the contraception is used incorrectly in the general sense. Sometimes people just never learned proper sex ed. Others avoid any sort of emergency contraception because they don't understand that it's a preventative measure that's totally different from something like RU 486, or they let ridiculous religious crap get in the way of making responsible choices.

Anyways I feel like the whole abortion debate is missing the forest for the trees. It wouldn't be such a huge problem if we stopped trying to place ideology over pragmatism.

[Syhto]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

ok, well that's fine, I realize what I said was mostly a slew of broken emotion. but most abortions are an emotional process brought on by the "can I have a kid" episode, or at least from my experience, for example if you go to jail

you should hear how the people talk about abortions and miscarriages. everything has its flip side. you said no one is using it willy nilly, well they are, lol. How can you say that's a myth that people use it as birth control. I know several people that do. It's sad but it isn't something you can just ignore in the presence of more logical reasoning

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

ok, well that's fine, I realize what I said was mostly a slew of broken emotion. but most abortions are an emotional process brought on by the "can I have a kid" episode, or at least from my experience, for example if you go to jail

you should hear how the people talk about abortions and miscarriages. everything has its flip side. you said no one is using it willy nilly, well they are, lol. How can you say that's a myth that people use it as birth control. I know several people that do. It's sad but it isn't something you can just ignore in the presence of more logical reasoning

obviously I don't mean NO ONE is -- it's just by no means the norm at all whatsoever. anecdotal evidence is also dangerous to go by as a general rule because you don't necessarily know how it fits into macro-level trends ("the plural of anecdote is not data").