Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

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Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

The reason I didn't bring any of this up in my response to adlp is because it's quite easily responded to by the stance, "If you don't want to accept the risks of getting pregnant (even with contraception), and you don't wish to deal with all the possible emotional/financial burdens that come with it, then don't have sex."

but sex is fucking great!

[adlp]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

What about ignorance? What about poverty? Do you think it's fair that a young couple has to deal with an unwanted pregnancy after being misinformed/malinformed or not informed at all? You have to think of the quality of life a baby would have too. There are plenty of people who are heavily misinformed when it comes to sex and/or don't have the finances to take care of a baby properly. Not to mention the impact it'll have on a possible career/education because being a full-time parent and trying to study/build a career is hard enough to do if you have the resources, let alone if you don't.
What about mental issues in a parent? What about deficiencies in the baby? What about making it unsafe for people who are going to abort one way or another? There are so many variables to consider and it's not as black and white as "lethal threat to the mother". Even having the baby and putting it up for adoption means you're out of the running for at least 3 months during the pregnancy which makes it less desirable for people to hire you/keep you, plus all of the stress and strain on the human body when you do deliver the baby can take its toll in unexpected ways.
I'm genuinely interested in a reply adlp.

edit: I'm not saying they shouldn't be under scrutiny when they want an abortion, and they should have some sort of conversation with a psychiatrist or a doctor discussing the implications of their decision but in the end, it's the woman's body and if she's decided to have an abortion, it's going to happen one way or another.

edit2: nice pissing contest you guys got going on in here.

i dont find ignorance, poverty, mental issues with parent, deficiencies (if you mean mental illness) or anything of the sort to warrant denying a human baby the ability to exist

as for rape and sexual assault i wouldnt generally say thats ok or not ok to abort. would have to be seriously considered on individual basis

[j-rodd123]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

i dont find ignorance, poverty, mental issues with parent, deficiencies (if you mean mental illness) or anything of the sort to warrant denying a human baby the ability to exist

as for rape and sexual assault i wouldnt generally say thats ok or not ok to abort. would have to be seriously considered on individual basis

ya I agree with this. there's always adoption. and people need to stop throwing around rape which accounts for such a small percentage of pregnancies (I think the number was around 1% i'm too lazy to google)

I am just against unrestricted abortions. I think the woman should make the choice on her own if rape was the super unlikely instance of pregnancy, or if it endangers the mom's life then obv it should be okay. adoption is always an option and imo (not religious at all) is that this >>>> preventing someone's right to life

[Choofers]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

adoption can ruin a child emotionally

[j-rodd123]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

how is that worse than not allowing it to live lol?

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

i dont find ignorance, poverty, mental issues with parent, deficiencies (if you mean mental illness) or anything of the sort to warrant denying a human baby the ability to exist

Well, right now I'm denying all sorts of babies the ability to exist by not having sex constantly and impregnating as many people as possible. Any time someone masturbates, it's also "wasted seed" and therefore wasted human potential.

You could argue "that's a strawman, it's all about when the sperm and egg meet because then it will become a human regardless of external human choice," but I don't see why we should endow it with the same rights as an autonomous human until it achieves some kind of sentience (as all our laws/moral codes ultimately boil down to utility, which don't make any sense if an agent can't even interpret utility).

as for rape and sexual assault i wouldnt generally say thats ok or not ok to abort. would have to be seriously considered on individual basis

Under what circumstances would a rape pregnancy not be okay to abort?

how is that worse than not allowing it to live lol?

It can be argued that a life of undue strife / hard suffering (psychologically, emotionally, physically, etc) is better than not living at all. EDIT: Or rather, it's wrong to intentionally bring someone into this world knowing that they will suffer through no fault of their own.

[Choofers]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

how is that worse than not allowing it to live lol?

i'm just saying that adoption isn't always an option

[j-rodd123]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

It can be argued that a life of undue strife / hard suffering (psychologically, emotionally, physically, etc) is better than not living at all.

I agree it can be argued. it can't be assumed however that this is the only thing the life will entail.

as for the sperm, they last for like what? a couple weeks before they die in vitro anyway? not very comparable imo, since they literally have to fertilize an egg to develop into a human. so yeah strawman like you said

edit: to elaborate on what I said for the sperm, they would definitely be "stopped" naturally if they don't fertilize an egg, however with an already fertilized egg, the only thing there to stop it from birth is unnatural human intervention (assuming something sad such as a miscarriage doesn't occur)

[DotKritic]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Off topic but still related to Texas: They just executed its 500th inmate since the death penalty in Texas was reinstated in 1982.

[adlp]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Well, right now I'm denying all sorts of babies the ability to exist by not having sex constantly and impregnating as many people as possible. Any time someone masturbates, it's also "wasted seed" and therefore wasted human potential.

yep that is a strawman

it's all about when the sperm and egg meet because then it will become a human regardless of external human choice," but I don't see why we should endow it with the same rights as an autonomous human until it achieves some kind of sentience

this is where we disagree. i value the potential of an developing individual's life experience while you and others here value a wider variety of options that a woman may want to choose from because she's already alive.

Under what circumstances would a rape pregnancy not be okay to abort?

couldn't say there's a ridiculous variety of factors that i'd imagine necessary to be considered

It can be argued that a life of undue strife / hard suffering (psychologically, emotionally, physically, etc) is better than not living at all.

i'd argue against that

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

I agree it can be argued. it can't be assumed however that this is the only thing the life will entail.

It may very well be the case that, for example, a child grows up and suffers for many years but has many pockets of high-times and happiness. Maybe it doesn't suffer at all -- perhaps there was a huge chance for a genetic defect and it lucked out and turned out perfectly happy/healthy.

The point, though, is that we still have to make responsible decisions where we can. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's the norm. If there's a high chance for a birth defect or health problem for the mother, for example, then that means most pregnancies that take place in similar situations will wind up with very adverse consequences. We have to ask ourselves if it's right to force people to endure that kind of suffering on average. Similar arguments apply in economic situations where a mother lacks the means to adequately support the child, resulting in lots of disutility all-around.

In an "ideal" world we could simply tell people "stop having sex," and tell rapists "stop raping/assaulting people" -- and everyone would follow suit and drop abortion rates to 0. However, this isn't realistic. People are going to have sex, and rape isn't going to disappear unless a lot of the factors that correlate to increased rape probabilities are managed/mitigated on a societal level.

It's sort of like drinking. People are going to do it, so you might as well enable people to do it as responsibly as possible if they choose to partake.

as for the sperm, they last for like what? a couple weeks before they die in vitro anyway? not very comparable imo, since they literally have to fertilize an egg to develop into a human. so yeah strawman like you said

I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was getting at. The point is that a "potential human" can take on many forms in many contexts. I am depriving people the ability to live by not having sex, for example.

But many people feel that this is different from a scenario in which sperm and egg have already met and will become an autonomous human through time alone. To this, I would say "in both cases, there is no sentience and therefore no disutility." Otherwise you impinge very heavily on the utility/autonomy of the woman and implicitly grant, say, a rapist more autonomy over a woman than the woman herself.

[Izzy]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

Off topic but still related to Texas: They just executed its 500th inmate since the death penalty in Texas was reinstated in 1982.

Reminds me of when I read through tons of last statements of death penalty criminals from texas. There was a lot of really weird ones. Also their last meals were often humorous.

[adlp]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

quick someone start a death penalty thread that will be fun

[Reincarnate]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

this is where we disagree. i value the potential of an developing individual's life experience while you and others here value a wider variety of options that a woman may want to choose from because she's already alive.

What do you consider the cutoff for potential and why? Why not sentience? Do you not agree that virtually every other moral code/law we follow boils down to utility?

i'd argue against that

Why so? I don't think it's responsible/the right choice to willingly bring a child into the world when there is a very good chance it will suffer in some way.

[adlp]

Re: Texas Senate Filibuster Regarding Abortion

for me the cutoff for potential would be a fertilized egg, because it will naturally develop and obtain sentience

Why so? I don't think it's responsible/the right choice to willingly bring a child into the world when there is a very good chance it will suffer in some way.

i dont know how to articulate my reasoning against this without involving religious beliefs. i would tie it in with my belief in a soul's premortal and postmortal existence

feel free to make fun of that i've been arguing on these forums too much today already