TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

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  • Afrobean
    Admiral in the Red Army
    • Dec 2003
    • 13262

    #136
    Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

    Everyone HAS TO read this. Skim the lengths of texts if you must, but pay attention to the specific points I've notated.

    And apologies about the line lengths. Devonin likes to make long-ass sentences rather than spreading a compound idea across multiple lines.

    Code:
    (12:17:20 PM) Devonin: Need some help counting to 3, mr wolf?
    (12:17:34 PM) Me: lol
    (12:17:50 PM) Devonin: Well, you seem to be having some issues with 3 not equalling 4
    (12:18:31 PM) Me: didnt I use the word "or" when talking about you and manti in my last post?
    (12:18:37 PM) Me: Im quite sure I used the word "or"
    (12:18:41 PM) Devonin: You used 'and' in the previous one.
    (12:18:46 PM) Devonin: So I guess you're getting less sure as you go.
    (12:19:02 PM) Me: at this point im sure about fiction and a2p
    (12:19:06 PM) Me: that leaves only one slot
    (12:19:13 PM) Devonin: You were sure about manti and I being in cahoots.
    (12:19:21 PM) Me: .................................
    (12:19:26 PM) Me: you are retarded lmao
    (12:19:28 PM) Me: yeah
    (12:19:30 PM) Devonin: So you're either wrong about manti and I being in cahoots, or you're wrong about fic and a2p being wolves.
    (12:19:30 PM) Me: my mind can NEVER change
    
    [B][At this point, Devonin seems to be attacking me because my mind isn't as resolute as I often make it sound. I'd think that he'd be glad to see that I'm not as hardheaded as that, but instead he thinks this is a point to attack me with.][/B]
    
    (12:19:37 PM) Me: I am thinking now
    (12:19:40 PM) Me: that I was probably wrong before
    (12:19:55 PM) Me: because of new things Ive seen which changed my opinion about fiction and a2p
    (12:20:01 PM) Me: well
    (12:20:03 PM) Me: not "changed"
    (12:20:06 PM) Devonin: As a game-relevant aside, and I already posted about it
    (12:20:07 PM) Me: but "cemented"
    (12:20:16 PM) Devonin: But can you use posts from another forum that wasn't game related in the game?
    (12:20:28 PM) Me: you can use outside conversations
    (12:20:32 PM) Me: whats the difference
    (12:20:44 PM) Devonin: I'm just curious, as a rules thing.
    (12:20:56 PM) Devonin: I guess really they just shouldn't have said anything about the game outside the game?
    
    [B][Yeah, talking outside of the game shouldn't be allowed. Irony in the statement comes from the fact that Devonin and I were conversing outside of the game at the time.][/B]
    
    (12:21:04 PM) Me: they didnt say much
    (12:21:09 PM) Me: but they didnt need to
    (12:21:17 PM) Me: but
    (12:21:31 PM) Me: its not as though all private discussion HAS TO be readily available to public
    (12:21:34 PM) Devonin: I don't even know what posts you're talking about, but "greens rarely get invested in the game" is a pretty ****ty reason to be "sure" that they're wolves now.
    (12:21:47 PM) Me: whats the difference whether private discussion happens on AIM, an AIM chatroom, IRC or a forum?
    (12:22:00 PM) Devonin: Maybe they just both think you're a wolf and wanted to see you get lynched to wipe your smug grin off?
    (12:22:09 PM) Me: lol
    (12:22:17 PM) Me: thats not at all in fiction's character as a human
    (12:22:26 PM) Me: go have a look at the last couple of games
    (12:22:27 PM) Devonin: Oh, it's got nothing to do with in-game roles.
    (12:22:29 PM) Me: and look at his voting style
    (12:22:36 PM) Devonin: You're just a smug arrogant jerk when it comes to TWG
    (12:22:44 PM) Me: then compare his sudden reach to get me of all people killed day 1
    (12:23:06 PM) Me: is smugness something I should be lynched for??
    (12:23:15 PM) Me: I thought the game was about lynching wolves, not lynching jerks
    
    [B][Notice here that he goes from attacking me for being smug (not something to get lynched over) to stating flatly that I'm a wolf. He realized that I caught him in pointing out that character faults are not something to be voting on, even though he may well be doing it himself, or at least thinks that others voting for me are doing it.][/B]
    
    (12:23:16 PM) Devonin: No, being a wolf is something you should be lynched for.
    (12:23:30 PM) Devonin: And being a wolf who is also constantly claiming to basically get anybody lynched that they want, you need to be lynched -right now-
    (12:23:44 PM) Me: I never said I could get anybody I wanted lynched
    (12:23:53 PM) Devonin: You imply it all the time.
    (12:24:04 PM) Me: just that if I had something on a person and I wanted to get them lynched, I probably could especially on day 1 when I have other people supporting me already
    (12:24:08 PM) Devonin: You make a big deal about what word choice implies about people.
    (12:24:19 PM) Devonin: Your word choice is that of an arrogant jerk who thinks he's better than everyone else.
    (12:24:28 PM) Me: I AM BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE
    (12:24:32 PM) Devonin: See?
    (12:24:33 PM) Me: SUCK MY DICKCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
    (12:24:41 PM) Devonin: And you wonder why people think you're a smug jerk?
    (12:24:52 PM) Me: I never wondered anything about that
    (12:24:55 PM) Me: I only wonder
    (12:24:58 PM) Me: why people are being stupid
    (12:25:00 PM) Me: and trying to kill me
    (12:25:01 PM) Me: I mean
    (12:25:05 PM) Me: it makes sense for wolves
    (12:25:11 PM) Me: but I know all four of you cant ALL be wolves
    (12:25:19 PM) Devonin: You know, if you get lynched, and you are a wolf, that this will all seem very hilarious to everybody else.
    (12:25:38 PM) Me: Id laugh too
    (12:25:41 PM) Me: but alas
    (12:25:45 PM) Me: not gonna happen
    (12:25:47 PM) Devonin: And the degree to which you're insisting that the wolves can only be frigging morons will be even more funny.
    (12:25:54 PM) Me: I didnt say that
    
    [B][Case in point: I said that the kill was a bad choice. Then I mentioned a couple of times that the wolves were stupid. A seeded comment to see if it would get a response from anyone, and sure enough, I got it.][/B]
    
    (12:26:01 PM) Devonin: You implied it in your word choice.
    (12:26:12 PM) Me: I said it was a bad kill choice
    (12:26:15 PM) Devonin: people "implying things in their word choice" is how you make every decision.
    (12:26:19 PM) Devonin: You said it was stupid also.
    (12:26:20 PM) Me: then INTENTIONALLY baited a response by insulting the wolves
    (12:26:22 PM) Devonin: Not just 'bad'
    (12:26:36 PM) Me: and who responded to my insult
    (12:26:39 PM) Me: but YOU AND MANTI lol
    (12:26:46 PM) Devonin: Me and Manti!
    (12:26:49 PM) Me: YOU AND MANTI
    (12:26:53 PM) Devonin: And you KNOW apparantly now, that one of us isn't a wolf.
    (12:27:00 PM) Me: maybe Im wrong about one of fiction/a2p :\
    (12:27:02 PM) Devonin: So oh snap, a human responded to your attempt to bait
    (12:27:09 PM) Devonin: Must not have been a good attempt then.
    (12:27:17 PM) Devonin: But you're "Sure" about them.
    (12:27:34 PM) Devonin: Because they posted on another forum that they were enjoying this game, they must be wolves.  Only wolves enjoy the game?
    (12:27:42 PM) Devonin: You seem to be enjoying it.  This is "when you thrive" isn't it?
    (12:27:59 PM) Me: I enjoy being green
    (12:28:01 PM) Me: most dont
    
    [B][Side note: fiction, a2p, do you enjoy being green?][/B]
    
    (12:29:14 PM) Devonin: When you get lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying being green.  
    
    [B][A little on the nose to say "I'll be enjoying being green." A little over-the-top. Could have easily instead said, "When you lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying it." Because otherwise, he's saying that he'd enjoy being green, apparently only if I was lynched as a red. Really weird wording.][/B]
    
    (12:29:28 PM) Me: well if this is the last game you're gonna play
    (12:29:32 PM) Me: you wont see that happen :\
    (12:29:46 PM) Me: you want to see me lynched as a red though
    (12:29:49 PM) Devonin: But having a wolf try to talk everyone into lynching you when you know you are a green, that's a little frustrating and makes the game not so fun.
    
    [B][The irony. It hurts... I love it. Actually, it's ****ing terrible because I'm the one about to be lynched while that jerk is sitting high and dry with not a single vote on him!][/B]
    
    (12:29:53 PM) Me: there are plenty of old games to read
    (12:30:08 PM) Me: one time
    (12:30:10 PM) Me: tass was a wolf
    (12:30:13 PM) Me: and I knew it
    (12:30:18 PM) Me: and I called him on it
    (12:30:20 PM) Devonin: Afro, I don't actually care about your anecdotes.
    (12:30:23 PM) Devonin: I can go read them if I want to.
    (12:30:24 PM) Me: and he got me lynched >:|
    (12:30:53 PM) Devonin: So if you get me lynched, we'll have duplicated that precisely.
    (12:31:04 PM) Me: Im not voting for you anymore, am I?
    (12:31:11 PM) Me: a little over defensive??
    (12:31:20 PM) Devonin: No, but I'm still on afro's magic list of wild guesses that are still right just enough to brag about.
    
    [B][Am I bragging in my boastful claims? Bragging wouldn't begin until postgame, where my calls are confirmed or rejected. If he thinks it's something to brag over, it must be right though, huh?][/B]
    
    (12:31:23 PM) Me: Im not even grouping you with my "sure" group
    (12:31:36 PM) Me: if you want
    (12:31:42 PM) Me: I could probably bump a2p
    
    [B][after completing this conversation and chatting with fiction, this actually happened lol][/B]
    
    (12:31:44 PM) Devonin: Well, you're grouping me in "And one of these two"
    (12:31:48 PM) Me: since he's almost all gut for me
    (12:31:56 PM) Me: I could put you up there with manti and fiction
    (12:32:05 PM) Devonin: I'll even be generous and say you're grouping me in "And probably one of these two"
    (12:32:48 PM) Devonin: Well, your reasons for all 4 of us are pretty sketchy, so you're naturally free to change your mind and flip-flop without looking like you actually have no idea, and still be able to claim to have called it retroactively if you were even partway right.
    (12:33:11 PM) Me: pretty sketchy lmao
    (12:33:19 PM) Me: why am i being voted for again?
    (12:33:24 PM) Devonin: "They posted on another forum when the site was down that they were upset the site was down"
    (12:33:30 PM) Devonin: That's not sketchy to you?
    (12:33:41 PM) Me: HOW ABOUT THIS
    (12:33:43 PM) Me: ignore that completely
    (12:33:47 PM) Me: look at fiction's vote on me
    (12:33:53 PM) Me: and compare his nature in voting for me here
    (12:33:54 PM) Me: on day 1
    (12:33:56 PM) Devonin: If I ignore that completely, you're now accusing them both for no reason.
    (12:33:58 PM) Me: when Im close to death
    (12:34:01 PM) Me: to last game
    (12:34:06 PM) Me: when he wouldn't vote for makilaz
    (12:34:12 PM) Me: even though he was the one that started on him
    (12:34:19 PM) Me: or at the end when we lynched u84 for faking a log
    (12:34:27 PM) Me: he wouldnt vote for u84 until after insta already happened
    (12:34:34 PM) Devonin: I guess it depends on how close to death everyone thinks you actually are.
    (12:34:39 PM) Me: 4 votes
    (12:34:44 PM) Me: more than enough for a day 1 lynch
    (12:34:53 PM) Me: even 3 is pretty damn close
    (12:35:02 PM) Me: which is what I was at when fiction voted for me if I recall
    (12:35:37 PM) Devonin: If you're a wolf, the logical thing to assume is that you're going to be accusing humans of being wolves.  However, there was motion towards lynching you, as I recall, before Fic/A2P even posted anything
    (12:36:02 PM) Me: who was it that started that
    (12:36:04 PM) Me: was it manti
    (12:36:09 PM) Me: or you
    (12:36:19 PM) Me: do you recall?
    
    [B][Iggy says it was manti.][/B]
    
    (12:36:26 PM) Devonin: Motion towards lynching you? I think it was me, I'm not sure of the exact chronology and the site looks down again
    (12:36:32 PM) Me: yeah
    (12:36:52 PM) Devonin: But when you turned my questioning your logic into accusing me of being a wolf when I know I'm not, that would have been when I started suspecting you, yes.
    
    [B]["When I know I'm not". Again, a little on-the-nose. I know a green knows they're green. You don't have to keep telling me this, especially since no matter how you word it, I'm just going to see it as a bad lie.][/B]
    
    (12:37:09 PM) Me: you were questioning something that neednt be questioned
    (12:37:15 PM) Me: without expressing a better alternative
    (12:37:24 PM) Me: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt[/url]
    (12:37:25 PM) Me: read this
    (12:37:29 PM) Me: that is what you were doing
    (12:37:33 PM) Devonin: I know what the term means Afro, and you're wrong.
    
    [B][I'm wrong? What is achieved by questioning my statement of "Killing Freaky was a bad idea"? It's an appeal to fear. It makes it appear that maybe killing Freaky WAS a good idea. But no matter how you slice it, I would have pushed to get the kid lynched today, so in wolfing him, the wolves gave us a shot to actually hit a red today rather than allowing me to plow forward on a green.][/B]
    
    (12:37:39 PM) Devonin: WHat I was doing is called "Being Devonin"
    
    [B][Notice that appeal to fear is a fallacy. He shoots my reasonable idea down without submitting an equally or more reasonable option. He does this in attempt to make me seem less credible, not because the statement I put forward was illogical or unreasoned, but just to make me appear questionable in general, even when the idea I'm putting forth needn't be questioned.][/B]
    
    (12:37:41 PM) Devonin: And you know it.
    (12:37:44 PM) Me: so
    (12:37:52 PM) Me: you spread FUD in everyday life
    (12:37:53 PM) Me: ??
    (12:38:06 PM) Devonin: Uncertainty is one of the most valuable tools in life.
    
    [B][You heard it here, folks! Devbro is a FUDer in real life. Weird.][/B]
    
    (12:38:14 PM) Devonin: l2philosophy
    (12:38:18 PM) Me: all it does is scare people
    (12:38:21 PM) Me: scared people are stupid
    (12:38:28 PM) Devonin: I'd say it's the opposite way.
    
    [B][Yeah, people are known for being most rational when they're scared. Really dude?][/B]
    
    (12:38:29 PM) Me: thihngs which are reasonable
    (12:38:33 PM) Devonin: Only stupid people get scared by uncertainty
    (12:38:38 PM) Me: shouldnt be considered so uncertain
    (12:38:41 PM) Me: things which are reasonable
    (12:38:46 PM) Devonin: That, and people who are bull****ting us and are worried about their claims being submitted to scrutiny
    
    [B][Where's this laser-focused scrutiny when it comes to all these votes on me, then? I think you need to get your systems calibrated, man.][/B]
    
    (12:38:46 PM) Me: should be admitted as reasonable
    (12:38:54 PM) Me: and not questioned unless a MORE reasonable alternative is given
    
    [B][Please. Someone tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that reasonable ideas should be shot down even without a more reasonable alternative being given. If no more reasonable answer can be given to a question, why question the answer that had already been given?]
    [/B]
    (12:38:58 PM) Me: or at least
    (12:38:59 PM) Devonin: Those people also make a big deal out of being questioned.
    (12:39:05 PM) Me: AN EQUALLY reasonable alternative
    (12:40:10 PM) Devonin: You just dont' understand philosophy or me, or how formal logic works, but I don't fault you for that.
    
    [B][I know enough to know that you're inconsistent in what requires solid evidence and what doesn't (wolf kill being bad requires hard evidence, me being a wolf does not), and abusing FUD for no greater reason than to attempt to discredit me.]
    [/B]
    (12:40:21 PM) Devonin: In fact, questioning something even if you have no better alternative is still a valuable tool.
    
    [B]["The Earth revolves around the Sun!" says Mr. White. "No, it doesn't," says Mr. Black. "But science and reason indicate it is so. What is the case if not this?" responds Mr. White. Mr. Black calls back, "i dunno lol".][/B]
    
    (12:40:24 PM) Me: formal logic isnt important here
    (12:40:30 PM) Me: this is an inherently illogical situation we are in
    (12:40:36 PM) Me: there are WEREWOLVES among us
    (12:40:39 PM) Devonin: I'll be even more general: "Questioning -anything- is a valuable tool"
    (12:40:40 PM) Me: how do we catch them?
    (12:40:45 PM) Me: BY MURDERING TOWNSPEOPLE ONE BY ONE
    (12:41:34 PM) Devonin: And if we're going to murder people for reasons we admit are sketchy at best, we'd best question those reasons as much as possible to try and minimize the chance of accidentally killing humans
    (12:41:55 PM) Me: right
    (12:41:59 PM) Me: question why you would kill me
    (12:42:00 PM) Me: please
    (12:42:36 PM) Me: dont sit there and say "question things" when I explain the most reasonable reason for why freaky was wolfed
    (12:42:45 PM) Me: then turn and say "omg u should die today BECAUSE I SAY SOOOOOOOOOO"
    (12:42:52 PM) Devonin: Because the combination of your claims to being able to get lynches done, in conjunction with the fact that your judgement is clearly flawed either because you're a wolf, or just aren't as good at the game as you think you are, make you too dangerous to the human team to keep alive.
    
    [B][First, being able to get lynches done is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong, but that's a completely separate point. Second, my judgment is not "clearly flawed", especially if I was a wolf. My "judgment" would be the best judgment of all, knowing who is and who is not a wolf. Wolves don't have incorrect JUDGMENT, they just LIE. But "I'm not as good at the game as I think I am"? Really? Because I might make a single mistake? I make plenty of mistakes, every game. My record for the last couple of games is about .5. Not a bad record considering random chance is .25 (and I'm sure plenty of players would be under .25 if they figured theirs), but that still means that my ultimate calls have been wrong HALF OF THE TIME. No one among us is free from making mistakes... I still don't know how we got that game a few back where we nailed 4 wolves in 3 days. I'm still completely dumbfounded by that.
    
    But finally, notice that he ends with "too dangerous to the human team to keep alive". He says this apart from the idea of me being a wolf. The implication is that even if I'm green, I need to be lynched. That's bull****.][/B]
    
    (12:43:06 PM) Me: lmao
    (12:43:14 PM) Me: IM A DANGEROUS HUMAN TO KEEP ALIVE
    (12:43:18 PM) Me: THAT MAKES SENSE
    (12:43:26 PM) Devonin: l2read plx
    (12:43:40 PM) Devonin: Jesus, does this random red herring all caps **** actually distract other players?
    (12:44:04 PM) Me: i use caps because italics takes longer to format
    (12:44:11 PM) Me: and sarcasm easily goes missed otherwise
    (12:44:14 PM) Me: but seriously man
    (12:44:19 PM) Me: me being "dangerous to the human team"
    (12:44:21 PM) Devonin: So the part where you said you were a human was sarcastic?
    
    [B][lmfao][/B]
    
    (12:44:23 PM) Me: is not a reason to lynch me
    (12:44:27 PM) Me: I lynched our seer last game
    (12:44:33 PM) Me: I was "dangerous to the human team"
    (12:44:36 PM) Me: but thats not why we lost
    (12:44:48 PM) Me: and I certainly didnt lynch u84 as the seer because I was red
    (12:44:55 PM) Devonin: No, but you lynched the seer, so again, perhaps you aren't as good at the game as you think?
    
    [B][Uh, considering I caught the dude with a fake log and correctly identified him as being the one who had faked the log, I'd say that if anything, that speaks to my competence in this game more than anything else. The failure here is why the hell u84 faked a log in the first place.][/B]
    
    (12:45:00 PM) Me: uh
    (12:45:06 PM) Me: u84 faked a log
    (12:45:14 PM) Me: he faked a log to try to convince me to lynch syhto
    (12:45:17 PM) Devonin: Either way, I don't want you leading lynch decisions.  You're either a wolf, or off your game this game.
    
    [B][Hey man, I think you should get your transmission looked at. That was a really hard gear shift just now.][/B]
    
    (12:45:20 PM) Me: when I was already going to vote for her anyway
    (12:45:35 PM) Devonin: And so if you're "so good" that people will follow your leads, I personally think your leads are faulty this game, for either reason.
    (12:45:37 PM) Me: in OTHER WORDS
    (12:45:41 PM) Me: you dont actually think im a wolf
    (12:45:48 PM) Devonin: No, I think you're a wolf.
    (12:45:52 PM) Me: you jsut want me to die because you're afraid of me doing something you think is wrong
    (12:46:23 PM) Devonin: I'm willing to admit the possibility that I'm wrong, though I'm more than above averagely sure you are.
    
    [B][So in the time between finishing this conversation and him posting yesterday, he went from "I'll admit the possibility that I'm wrong" to "I am completely confident". Amazing. I mean, my mind changes just as easily too, but usually only when I have some sort of new stimulus.]
    [/B]
    (12:46:39 PM) Me: lol
    (12:46:49 PM) Devonin: I'm the most sure you're a wolf than any other player.
    (12:46:50 PM) Me: you attack me for sketchy logic
    (12:46:52 PM) Devonin: Thus you get my vote anyway.
    (12:46:58 PM) Me: then employ sketchy logic to vote me dead
    (12:47:06 PM) Devonin: Oh yeah, "Dev's voting to lynch the person he thinks is most likely a wolf out of all the players" really sketchy
    (12:47:08 PM) Me: if you just said "im voting you beause I fear what you might do"
    (12:47:10 PM) Me: Id buy that
    (12:47:21 PM) Me: but I dont buy that you are that confident that im red
    (12:47:24 PM) Me: youre not that stupid
    (12:47:24 PM) Devonin: I should vote for someone I think is a human instead?
    (12:47:51 PM) Devonin: Well, if you're accusing me of being a wolf, there's really only 1 of 3 possibilities going on there.
    (12:48:00 PM) Me: the way you speak, it sounds as though you're just afraid of who I might lynch
    (12:48:09 PM) Me: not that you truthfully think Im a wolf
    (12:48:10 PM) Me: but
    (12:48:17 PM) Me: you as a red would be afraid of who I might lynch
    (12:48:24 PM) Me: especially since I had previously voted for you
    (12:48:31 PM) Devonin: If I think you're either a wolf, or just making really bad calls, in either case, it woudln't be a bad decision for me to try and get you lynched.
    (12:48:54 PM) Devonin: Because leaving a wolf alive is bad, and leaving someone with a lot of percieved clout who is making bad calls alive is also bad.
    
    [B][Notice here that he says I'm making "bad calls". The only call I've made thus far that he'd have any ability to comment on the accuracy of would be himself. But even so, he seems to KNOW that my other calls (fiction, manti, and ostensibly a2p) are ALSO bad calls. He "KNOWS" this!] [/B]
    
    (12:49:01 PM) Devonin: Less bad, but still bad.
    (12:49:07 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
    (12:49:12 PM) Me: the only difference is
    (12:49:19 PM) Me: I have confidence to express myself
    (12:49:30 PM) Devonin: The only difference is that I KNOW for a FACT that you're making bad calls.
    (12:49:39 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
    (12:49:40 PM) Devonin: Whereas anybody else doesn't actually know for a fact.
    (12:49:41 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
    (12:49:44 PM) Me: YOU KNOW?
    (12:49:45 PM) Devonin: Yes I know.
    (12:49:54 PM) Me: How do you know that Im wrong about fiction?
    (12:49:56 PM) Me: a2p?
    (12:49:58 PM) Me: manti?
    (12:50:02 PM) Devonin: Did I say I knew that?
    
    [B][Yes, you did. In saying that I'm making "bad calls" you are referring to more than just the one call I've made against you.][/B]
    
    (12:50:08 PM) Me: you said you knew I was making bad calls
    (12:50:13 PM) Devonin: I know you're making bad calls because you called me as a wolf.
    (12:50:15 PM) Me: the only "call" you "know" about
    (12:50:17 PM) Devonin: And I know that's incorrect
    (12:50:17 PM) Me: is when I accuse you
    (12:50:25 PM) Me: one bad call
    (12:50:30 PM) Me: is not making bad calls
    (12:50:33 PM) Me: and
    (12:50:35 PM) Me: like I said
    (12:50:37 PM) Me: we all make bad calls
    (12:50:52 PM) Me: rarely is there a game
    (12:50:56 PM) Me: where wolves are lynched every day
    (12:50:58 PM) Devonin: Sure we do, but when the person making bad calls is also going on about how easily they pursuade people to follow their calls.
    (12:50:59 PM) Me: and not a single human is lynched
    (12:51:02 PM) Me: it is inevitable
    (12:51:24 PM) Me: there wouldnt have been much persuasion necessary
    (12:51:35 PM) Devonin: Again, whether you're a wolf, or just doing poorly at the game this game, I feel you're a valid lynch target.
    
    [B][See this? See what he said? "Whether you're a wolf or not... you're a valid lynch target." Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Let's all lynch humans and feel good about it just because we don't like the way they play!][/B]
    
    (12:52:09 PM) Me: your reasoning isnt bad
    (12:52:15 PM) Me: but Im not some throwaway ****
    (12:52:22 PM) Devonin: Is this where you pat me on the head and tell me how good you are at the game?
    (12:52:25 PM) Devonin: Because you've done that already.
    (12:52:28 PM) Me: if youre wrong, you're throwing away a valuable asset
    (12:52:33 PM) Me: becuase you fear I might make a mistake
    (12:52:36 PM) Devonin: You've also punched me in the face and told me I was a moron, and how good you are at the game
    
    [B][I had never once called him any insult. In a previous conversation, I told him repeatedly how bad he is at the game. Closest thing to an insult I ever gave him.][/B]
    
    (12:52:47 PM) Devonin: So you can see why I'm not exactly interested in hearing it at this point.
    (12:52:52 PM) Me: only person Ive insulted
    (12:52:54 PM) Me: is the wolves
    (12:52:54 PM) Me: gg
    (12:53:01 PM) Devonin: Um...no.
    (12:53:05 PM) Me: ive repeatedly said
    (12:53:08 PM) Me: you're smarter than this
    (12:53:13 PM) Devonin: Do you want me to go and copy/paste where you told me that I suck at this game?
    (12:53:14 PM) Me: you're not stupid
    (12:53:18 PM) Devonin: Where you told me I was not good at the game?
    (12:53:20 PM) Me: sucking at this game
    (12:53:21 PM) Devonin: You've done both those things.
    (12:53:28 PM) Me: is not an insult of your intelligence
    (12:53:37 PM) Me: stop for a minute
    (12:53:37 PM) Devonin: You've insulted me, in this game, personally, distinct from anything you said about the game itself.
    (12:53:49 PM) Me: dude
    (12:53:55 PM) Me: I said you're bad at this game
    (12:54:04 PM) Me: not "told you that you are a moron"
    (12:54:07 PM) Devonin: Right, and I disagree, since I think you're a wolf.
    
    [B][Convenient how he tries to switch back from me pointing out how wrong he is for being "u mad" to attacking me again.][/B]
    
    (12:54:28 PM) Me: you said yourself you're not cut out for this game
    
    [B][He told me this repeatedly over AIM before signing up for this game. He said he played once and he wasn't able to adjust to the loose flying that's necessary. It's not his cup of tea because attacks need to be less resolute than he'd like. He doesn't like that the best attacks possible are the sorts of attacks I'm employing right in this very post. TWG is not the sort of game for him. Smart and logical don't always go hand in hand with social engineering, I guess.][/B]
    
    (12:54:40 PM) Devonin: *chuckle*
    (12:54:42 PM) Devonin: You're fun Afro.

    Comment

    • Syhto
      BuMP it
      • Mar 2006
      • 2466

      #137
      Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

      quick post: phase will most likely end late tonight
      Originally posted by ~jrodd
      keep ur head up or down whatevers most comfortable idk but ya i repsect u cuz u respect others and we all have opinions to share, so respect one another and keep being urself or someone else watever
      Originally posted by ~Tao of Dossar
      I never self-reflect, and therefore, I have no negative thoughts about myself. However I am also aware about my successes.

      Comment

      • u84
        FFR Veteran
        • Jul 2006
        • 1921

        #138
        Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

        So, Afro, I read for like 5 minutes through that chat and saw I was only halfway. Didn't read the rest.
        Originally posted by ryanisadouche
        I woke up this morning wearing my new ffr shirt which confused me.

        Then i remembered i found the package last night while drunk and put it on in excitement, then immediately passed out.


        Last edited by: Tasselfoot; 7 minutes ago. Reason: I am your MILF.

        Comment

        • FictionJunction
          FFR Player
          • Nov 2006
          • 3843

          #139
          Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

          hi twg
          Originally posted by j-rodd123
          wow

          Comment

          • FreezinIce
            FFR Player
            • May 2005
            • 265

            #140
            Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

            A potentially great game cut down by technical issues.

            Sigh...

            hi fic =/
            ========

            To let the world be.

            ========

            Originally posted by Charu
            Wow, all most of my town reads vanished. Thanks Freez for stirring the pot, motherfucker!!!


            Originally posted by mellon_collie
            AHHHHHHHHH SKEET SKEET SKEET SKEET
            Originally posted by roundbox
            AHHHHHHHHH SKEET SKEET SKEET SKEET


            Originally posted by Afrobean
            Lynch all liars is good meta. Period.
            Originally posted by Red
            My guess at this point is that there aren't actually any wolves, and all the humans are just going to kill each other until only a few are left. Then the remaining survivors will realize they are the real monsters.
            Originally posted by TWG Ike
            SCUM THEATER AA SCUM CHARU WOLF ALIEN ROUNDBOX IS TOWN AND FRAMED

            Comment

            • Afrobean
              Admiral in the Red Army
              • Dec 2003
              • 13262

              #141
              Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

              Originally posted by Syhto
              quick post: phase will most likely end late tonight
              lol

              Give us a few more days for people to remove their votes from me, then we can finally end day 1.

              Longest day 1 in history.

              Comment

              • Afrobean
                Admiral in the Red Army
                • Dec 2003
                • 13262

                #142
                Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                ps everyone that plays TWG or is interested in playing TWG, throw me a IM or a PM and I can get you the URL to the new offsite forum, complete with a stash of a bunch of old vets! Sign-ups for first game are today too so hurry up, in case we fill up the game completely with just the old vets. For the curious, I'm hosting it and it's basically this game, only with the CORRECT number of greens this time (there should have been one more green so there would be an even number of total players).

                Comment

                • Afrobean
                  Admiral in the Red Army
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 13262

                  #143
                  Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                  Actually, **** it. I'm gonna be getting into bed for the day soon.

                  Ask anyone with "FFЯ" under their name. Or go to the IRC at irc.rizon.net channel #ffya and ask about it there. Or ask Manti about it. He knows what's up.

                  Comment

                  • devonin
                    Very Grave Indeed
                    Community Manager
                    Event Staff
                    FFR Simfile Author
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 10120

                    #144
                    Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                    Okay lets see. All quotes are from Afro's little subtext comments to our already posted conversation log.

                    At this point, Devonin seems to be attacking me because my mind isn't as resolute as I often make it sound. I'd think that he'd be glad to see that I'm not as hardheaded as that, but instead he thinks this is a point to attack me with
                    I wasn't attacking you because your mind isn't as resolute as you often make it sound. I was attacking you because you said you thought 4 people in two sets of 2 were wolves in a 3 wolf game. One of those statements (fic/a2p are wolves & dev/manti are wolves) was simply false necessarily. You've since backed down on fic/a2p but at the time I made the statement, you were asserting as true two things that were mutually exclusive.

                    Yeah, talking outside of the game shouldn't be allowed. Irony in the statement comes from the fact that Devonin and I were conversing outside of the game at the time
                    Talking on AIM is the primary media of communication for TWG, we weren't conversing outside the game. Taking some posts posted on a forum that had nothing to do with the game in a thread about the FFR site going down, that's outside the game. I was also just asking for clarification as to whether or not that should have been kosher. If I were trying to lodge a complaint about it, I'd have said it to Syhto not you.

                    Notice here that he goes from attacking me for being smug (not something to get lynched over) to stating flatly that I'm a wolf. He realized that I caught him in pointing out that character faults are not something to be voting on, even though he may well be doing it himself, or at least thinks that others voting for me are doing it
                    I'd already been maintaining that I believe you're a wolf all along, it's not like my saying you're a wolf at that point was surprising or unexpected. I also suggested a reasonable alternative (GASP!) to your theory that "The only reason they care about the game is because they must be wolves, greens never care about the game" which as I stated and still believe, is a retarded basis for concluding someone is a wolf.

                    Case in point: I said that the kill was a bad choice. Then I mentioned a couple of times that the wolves were stupid. A seeded comment to see if it would get a response from anyone, and sure enough, I got it.
                    My response was "Maybe they had reasons besides being morons to pick him" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

                    A little on the nose to say "I'll be enjoying being green." A little over-the-top. Could have easily instead said, "When you lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying it." Because otherwise, he's saying that he'd enjoy being green, apparently only if I was lynched as a red. Really weird wording
                    It's not weird wording if you actually comprehend what I'm saying. I'm saying "As a human, I'm not enjoying the game in the sense that you're trying to get me lynched despite my being human, but if/when you get lynched and turn out, in fact, to be a wolf, then I will be enjoying the game"

                    The irony. It hurts... I love it. Actually, it's ****ing terrible because I'm the one about to be lynched while that jerk is sitting high and dry with not a single vote on him
                    Only ironic if I'm a wolf. Since I'm not, it's not ironic. This is quickly becoming Alanis-like irony though.

                    Am I bragging in my boastful claims? Bragging wouldn't begin until postgame, where my calls are confirmed or rejected. If he thinks it's something to brag over, it must be right though
                    You brag about your consistancy in picking wolves. Those are claims that you boast about. Did I say you were boasting about it RIGHT THIS SECOND? No, I said you boast about it. Which you do.

                    When I know I'm not". Again, a little on-the-nose. I know a green knows they're green. You don't have to keep telling me this, especially since no matter how you word it, I'm just going to see it as a bad lie
                    The fact that you see it as a lie just shows that you're either a wolf (In which case of COURSE you "see it as a lie" you know I'm human and want me dead, naturally you'll find any excuse to be critical of me) or you aren't as good at spotting wolves as you think you are.

                    I'm wrong? What is achieved by questioning my statement of "Killing Freaky was a bad idea"? It's an appeal to fear. It makes it appear that maybe killing Freaky WAS a good idea. But no matter how you slice it, I would have pushed to get the kid lynched today, so in wolfing him, the wolves gave us a shot to actually hit a red today rather than allowing me to plow forward on a green
                    How does suggesting that maybe the wolves had a reason besdies rank stupidity to pick him appeal to fear? It only appeals to fear if I said "So clearly the wolves are super-geniuses thinking ten steps ahead and we're all DOOMED!" All I said was "I don't think it's a good idea to just CONCLUDE that they're morons" The only person talking in terms of fear here is you.

                    Notice that appeal to fear is a fallacy. He shoots my reasonable idea down without submitting an equally or more reasonable option. He does this in attempt to make me seem less credible, not because the statement I put forward was illogical or unreasoned, but just to make me appear questionable in general, even when the idea I'm putting forth needn't be questioned
                    I didn't even do it to make YOU look less credible. Stop feeling so self-important. I would have said to -anybody- making a snap call like that "Maybe there's more to it" it had nothing at all to do with you personally. The way you reacted to my questiioning you, though, is what made it about you.

                    You heard it here, folks! Devbro is a FUDer in real life. Weird
                    I can't even begin to express how utterly you missed the point here. So wildly that I can only assume you missed the point because you had to. Wolf.

                    The Earth revolves around the Sun!" says Mr. White. "No, it doesn't," says Mr. Black. "But science and reason indicate it is so. What is the case if not this?" responds Mr. White. Mr. Black calls back, "i dunno lol"
                    Whereas in the example of killing freaky, you yourself provided 3 seperate potential alternatives. Also, questioning is valuable even in the ad absurdam (hey look I can reference logical fallacy too!) example you provided, if simply because people who strongly believe Mr White can draw from this questioning that they probably ought to question Mr Black a little more strenuously.

                    First, being able to get lynches done is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong
                    OR ARE A WOLF.

                    But finally, notice that he ends with "too dangerous to the human team to keep alive". He says this apart from the idea of me being a wolf. The implication is that even if I'm green, I need to be lynched. That's bull****.
                    I believe you are a wolf. Thus I believe it is a good idea to lynch you. However, even if I happen to be wrong, which I don't think is the case, and you -are- human, I am -still- okay with lynching you because you're going to great lengths to try and lynch a human.

                    I had never once called him any insult. In a previous conversation, I told him repeatedly how bad he is at the game. Closest thing to an insult I ever gave him
                    I consider that insulting.

                    He told me this repeatedly over AIM before signing up for this game. He said he played once and he wasn't able to adjust to the loose flying that's necessary. It's not his cup of tea because attacks need to be less resolute than he'd like. He doesn't like that the best attacks possible are the sorts of attacks I'm employing right in this very post. TWG is not the sort of game for him. Smart and logical don't always go hand in hand with social engineering, I guess
                    To this I say once again "You're funny Afro"

                    Comment

                    • Syhto
                      BuMP it
                      • Mar 2006
                      • 2466

                      #145
                      Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                      I won't be joining you at the new forums.
                      Or here.

                      The only place I will be doing anything remotely ffr-esque will be on aim, with live twg's, which I'm thinking of having weekly on either friday or sunday nights. It would be helpful, if you want to play them, to get online or better yet message me.

                      There is one game scheduled for tonight at 7 CST. cya
                      Originally posted by ~jrodd
                      keep ur head up or down whatevers most comfortable idk but ya i repsect u cuz u respect others and we all have opinions to share, so respect one another and keep being urself or someone else watever
                      Originally posted by ~Tao of Dossar
                      I never self-reflect, and therefore, I have no negative thoughts about myself. However I am also aware about my successes.

                      Comment

                      • Afrobean
                        Admiral in the Red Army
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 13262

                        #146
                        Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                        Originally posted by devonin
                        I wasn't attacking you because your mind isn't as resolute as you often make it sound. I was attacking you because you said you thought 4 people in two sets of 2 were wolves in a 3 wolf game. One of those statements (fic/a2p are wolves & dev/manti are wolves) was simply false necessarily. You've since backed down on fic/a2p but at the time I made the statement, you were asserting as true two things that were mutually exclusive.
                        I never relented on fiction. A2P is the one I relented on, because I really had no reason to distrust him but for a gut reaction... a gut reaction that was built on a feeling I had from him during night 1.

                        Talking on AIM is the primary media of communication for TWG, we weren't conversing outside the game. Taking some posts posted on a forum that had nothing to do with the game in a thread about the FFR site going down, that's outside the game.
                        Anything outside of this thread is OUTSIDE THE GAME. The only venue for communication that is off limits is direct IRL contact. I don't think the telephone is even offlimits, but I don't think there's really precedent there anyway.

                        I was also just asking for clarification as to whether or not that should have been kosher. If I were trying to lodge a complaint about it, I'd have said it to Syhto not you.
                        It would be unreasonable for her to make that sort of judgment. She's quite new herself and may be prone to misunderstanding things, as you yourself have. You see "the game" as forum PLUS AIM. No. The game is just the thread. Private messages, regardless of medium, are outside of the game and are expressly allowed because of the format, even though such a thing is not generally allowed in Mafia.

                        I'd already been maintaining that I believe you're a wolf all along, it's not like my saying you're a wolf at that point was surprising or unexpected.
                        You misunderstand me.

                        I was criticizing the fact that you attacked me for being smug. You acted as though being smug was something I was doing that made me a wolf. You were acting as though me being smug was a good justification for voting for me.

                        Then when I pointed out the absurdity of you attacking me for being smug, you immediately reverted to baseless attacks again. It didn't surprise me to see you attack me baselessly, I just found your whiplash revert after attacking me for being smug to be a little messed up. You shouldn't say:

                        "I'm voting for you because I think you're a wolf. I think you're a wolf because you're being smug."

                        I respond: "Smugness isn't a good reason to vote to lynch someone. Me being smug doesn't make me a wolf."

                        And you just going back to "Oh well, I think you're a wolf so I'm voting for you."

                        I also suggested a reasonable alternative (GASP!) to your theory that "The only reason they care about the game is because they must be wolves, greens never care about the game" which as I stated and still believe, is a retarded basis for concluding someone is a wolf.
                        Not a particularly resolute conclusion, huh, since I'm not longer on A2P. You'd be right to say that it is a bad basis for a CONCLUSION, but I never really intended it to be that way. It's merely one piece of subjective evidence. I believe that this behavior is unlikely from most greens, therefore I would believe that these persons are less likely to be greens for that reason. I never said it was conclusive proof or anything.

                        My response was "Maybe they had reasons besides being morons to pick him" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
                        herf derf

                        No offense, bro, but you need to work on your reading comprehension. I never said I truly believed the wolves to be morons or idiots or anything. All I said was that it was a bad choice. When I called the wolves out as idiots, I intentionally overstepped my bounds to see if I would get anyone defending the kill (which you just did) or get offended by it (which you did when you thought I called you a moron).

                        It's not weird wording if you actually comprehend what I'm saying. I'm saying "As a human, I'm not enjoying the game in the sense that you're trying to get me lynched despite my being human, but if/when you get lynched and turn out, in fact, to be a wolf, then I will be enjoying the game"
                        Nice attempt to inject another reason into what you say, a meaning that was right there on the ****ing surface. I was attacking you for SUBTEXT, and especially since I'm pointing out the subtext with the implication that you're a wolf, you wouldn't be aware of this subtext on a conscious level. I'm in your head, mother****er, and you don't even know it.

                        Only ironic if I'm a wolf. Since I'm not, it's not ironic. This is quickly becoming Alanis-like irony though.
                        It's like rain on your wedding day?

                        You mean this game is turning into an unfortunate turn of events? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Seems like you were just going for a clever turn of phrase in response to my accusations.

                        You brag about your consistancy in picking wolves. Those are claims that you boast about. Did I say you were boasting about it RIGHT THIS SECOND? No, I said you boast about it. Which you do.
                        Again you misunderstand the subtext of it. You are really bad at putting in unintentional subtext, and I'd wager that you're even worse at if you really try for it.

                        The fact that you see it as a lie just shows that you're either a wolf (In which case of COURSE you "see it as a lie" you know I'm human and want me dead, naturally you'll find any excuse to be critical of me) or you aren't as good at spotting wolves as you think you are.
                        Even if you aren't a wolf, you still can't know if I hit or missed on the other two. If I hit both of them, I'd be nailing a higher rate than my average for the last couple of games.

                        But I repeat: A GREEN WOULDN'T KNOW HOW WELL I AM DOING APART FROM THEIR OWN ONE ROLE. You telling me I'm doing poorly implies that you know something about the other two wolves. If I say "Devonin, Fiction, and Manti are wolves" and you say I'm "not as good at spotting wolves as I think I am", you are effectively saying that you "KNOW" I am wrong about at least two of the calls I've made. Only a wolf would know this.

                        How does suggesting that maybe the wolves had a reason besdies rank stupidity to pick him appeal to fear?
                        herf derf

                        Again, I've only said the kill was a bad choice. When I overstepped the line and insulted the wolves directly, I was LAYING A TRAP, hoping maybe I'd get some responses from the wolves. You know, some responses of people saying things like "hey, the wolves could have done it because they're smart!" or "don't insult us wolves ", which is pretty much what you've given me.

                        It only appeals to fear if I said "So clearly the wolves are super-geniuses thinking ten steps ahead and we're all DOOMED!"
                        Merely stating it's possible is an appeal to fear. It needn't be the most likely possibility (or even CLAIMED as the likeliest possibility) for it to make someone fearful.

                        All I said was "I don't think it's a good idea to just CONCLUDE that they're morons"
                        I never truly believed that they were, and you would know this if you paid attention. I even took the time to spell out the situation wherein a smart person would have made the bad kill.

                        But it's still a bad kill choice even if a smart person made the choice.

                        The only person talking in terms of fear here is you.
                        So you believe a person should be free to appeal to fear as long as they don't "talk in terms of fear"? Attempting to disrepute a reasonable statement ("The night 1 kill was a bad one") isn't an appeal to fear? You think the night 1 kill was a GOOD kill? Please, explain to me why this would be the case, as I've already made it clear that I would have campaigned hard for the guy's lynch today, and I would have had more than a little backup in getting it done.

                        I didn't even do it to make YOU look less credible. Stop feeling so self-important.
                        You attempt to discredit my statement without offering an alternative. What purpose does that serve OTHER THAN making me look less credible? Is it a good thing for us to go ON AND ON AND ON AND ON about the night kill just because you think there are other POSSIBLE alternatives than "the kill was a bad choice"?

                        **** you. The kill WAS a bad choice. You're just trying to defend your own kill because you feel insulted that I would call your kill bad.

                        I can't even begin to express how utterly you missed the point here. So wildly that I can only assume you missed the point because you had to. Wolf.
                        lmfao you are dumb, dude seriously

                        Whereas in the example of killing freaky, you yourself provided 3 seperate potential alternatives.
                        None of which matter in the slightest. No matter WHAT the path the choice came from, the choice was still a bad one. Deal with it. Your kill choice sucks. Learn from your mistakes, don't keep defending them incessantly.

                        OR ARE A WOLF.
                        "It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong"

                        "Simply wrong".

                        You wouldn't think the case of a person being red and lynching a green falls under the example of being "simply wrong"? I made two opposite ended examples there. "Misguided" and "simply wrong". Misguided would be like last game where I lynched u84. Simply wrong would be when Syhto (as a wolf) argued against and voted to lynch u84 last game.

                        I believe you are a wolf. Thus I believe it is a good idea to lynch you. However, even if I happen to be wrong, which I don't think is the case, and you -are- human, I am -still- okay with lynching you because you're going to great lengths to try and lynch a human.
                        Or in other words

                        "I am in favor of lynching you because you are going to great lengths to get me lynched."

                        Excellent logic, bro!

                        I consider that insulting.
                        Then you're a fool. I'm not very good at chess, and if someone with a lot more experience at chess told me I was bad at it, I wouldn't feel insulted, I would just say "yeah, I don't have much experience lol."

                        To this I say once again "You're funny Afro"
                        Uh oh. The Kilga precedent.

                        Wolves use emoticons.

                        TOO BAD NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT I AM REFERRING TO

                        ps Syhto, you can't just stop doing TWG here. You're hosting this game. You have a responsibility to see it through.

                        Comment

                        • A2P
                          FFR Veteran
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 3127

                          #147
                          Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                          lito
                          gun
                          u84

                          Comment

                          • Syhto
                            BuMP it
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 2466

                            #148
                            Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                            This game is over, you seem to be the only one still playing. And even if it weren't, I'd certainly be able to discontinue the game if I felt like it. Now, I wouldn't just do that. But nothing truly ties me to this game. Concentrate on your ffya twg. By the looks of it, twg-- not to mention ffr as we know it will not continue gracefully. As I stated before, I'm finished.

                            By the way, Devonin was the guard.
                            Last edited by Syhto; 11-27-2009, 11:50 AM.
                            Originally posted by ~jrodd
                            keep ur head up or down whatevers most comfortable idk but ya i repsect u cuz u respect others and we all have opinions to share, so respect one another and keep being urself or someone else watever
                            Originally posted by ~Tao of Dossar
                            I never self-reflect, and therefore, I have no negative thoughts about myself. However I am also aware about my successes.

                            Comment

                            • Afrobean
                              Admiral in the Red Army
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 13262

                              #149
                              Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                              Originally posted by Syhto
                              This game is over lol you seem to be the only one still playing.
                              dev too

                              So if the game is officially over with no winner, make a postgame thread and reveal all of the roles.

                              Comment

                              • Syhto
                                BuMP it
                                • Mar 2006
                                • 2466

                                #150
                                Re: TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

                                Dev knew it was over already, and knew the roles.
                                Originally posted by ~jrodd
                                keep ur head up or down whatevers most comfortable idk but ya i repsect u cuz u respect others and we all have opinions to share, so respect one another and keep being urself or someone else watever
                                Originally posted by ~Tao of Dossar
                                I never self-reflect, and therefore, I have no negative thoughts about myself. However I am also aware about my successes.

                                Comment

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