TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Page 10-15 is general heat toward H&H

hateandhatred - something about his walls of reactions seems very performative. not willing to give out much of his opinions without commenting on someone elses' first (ie it's easy to look like youre accomplishing something when you do this). not inherently wolf behavior but its more than i can say for anyone else

???
weiss

unfairly, i am nervous to play with sunfan or star lol

I think bugkid summarize it best overall.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

leetic spent the entire game self-pres on hate and having hate on the table without committing to it.

Moved to bugkid and self-press in Day 2 eod, but it was a kitb with 2 wolves so, it didn't matter.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Can you give us your reads on all the players? You dying today looks more and more likely by the minute so at least give us something we can work with

Leetic trying to push H&H to get reads and #270 respond to self-pres on Weiss. I'm pretty sure wolf chat has something along the lines of "let's post this in the thread so it looks natural with the other posts".

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

I'm trying to reconstruct the H&H/leetic game narrative because I know it's real so, there has to be correlations to be made like we would do postgame.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

I cannot think of another way to prove I'm town.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Are you a PR?

How did I miss that post ? That would have been a death sentence in my book.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

I will post more later, possibly veeeeery late tonight, more likely tomorrow
I feel like making hateandhatred sweat a little because I think his EOD was kinda stinky and felt kind of listless

I like hakulyte and I *think* I like Lar
I will elaborate on many more things later

leetic smells

leetic
nevermind sven, you're off the hook

Absolute cinema

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

MML's narrative makes sense to me with the playstyle. (yes it's meta over a lot of games)
Hate actually enjoy rolling wolf. He didn't look hyped or committed to the game. So, I think he's just bored and has other things in mind.

Update: Hate enjoy rolling wolf. He's hyped and committed to the game, but find Day 1 boring.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

I'm at page 25 atm.

fmpov rereading thread overall, pmuch everyone in this game wanted to vote out H&H over me besides H&H in Day 2 the second I couldn't be here.

I don't know what I'm supposed to defend myself from because we should be looking at intentions/progressions, not meta.

Your meta could change tomorrow if you wanted so, it's not completely static.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Alright, I'm off school now. I got out a bit early, which is hype. Also aced a test from last week and I didn't know how well I did, which is very hype!
I'm going to go back on a few things from d0 (I'll be rereading the thread and posting my thoughts as I go through it, so some stuff might be out of order. I'm sorry for those who hate wall posting, but also, screw you I do what I want)
The first thing I immediately want to address is the fact that I was completely mixing up soul stealer and vengeful spirit in my mind, on top of missing the very clearly indicated fact that vengeful spirit would not know their alignment. That was absolutely miserable of me, I just didn't bother commiting the setup to memory because in my mind vt = boring and I wasn't all that immersed into the game going into d0. I don't know how much my confusion showed in my posts and I don't think it's been brought up (unless it's been talked about today, I've only skimmed the first page and a half while waiting for my coffee), but I apologize and I'll do better (more on that later since I saw a relevant post from Haku)

While it's most likely true that you may have mixed up soul stealer and vengeful spirit in your mind. (I'll assume that at least) I think you're only mentioning it to the class to get "town cred", but kind of like a robot trying to pass as an human kind of way rather than to explain what it means in relation to your reads. fmpov this is kind of a "wolf expectation" in the sense that you want your game to appear as "human as possible".

Next, I want to bring up the fact that roundbox asked me why I didn't further press Bugkid on why they thought raeko and roundbox were town/town just because they sounded like themselves. I genuinely skipped over his messages on this topic while trying to respond to as much of the thread as I could so I could be interacting in real time during EOD. By the time I was done trying to get into this (and it was fairly uncomfortable for me because everyone played like it was the midgame and I was so fucking lost), I did see it, but bugkid's already incomprehensible read on raeko as their top town suddenly becoming a middle of the pack town read just because she decided to park a vote on me was so extremely bs that I didn't really care about the previous question anymore even when I ended up reading and registering roundbox's posts addressed to me. It was also like an hour before EOD and being a top wagon, I felt like it made no sense to go back and answer some potentially suspicious shit about me because I really didn't give a fuck about defending myself directly. It's d0, someone has to go, if it's me and I don't know who's wolfing, I'm cool with it. I pointed out the thing I hated from bugkid and while I could have gone back to my previous question, I was at least content with the idea that they would probably bite it during N1 or on the next day (and I'm pretty baffled from the flip itself, especially with their last comment that at best was white flagging or expressing contentment with potentially winning a counterclaim situation (which is dumb but whatever, I was convinced it was a salty wolf comment referrencing the slip and playing against the wolf wincon, but it was just ???). Anyway, back to roundbox's question, he said it sounded like wolf wallposting and frankly I think that's more than fair, and had it been anyone else and I read that without serious suspicions of my own, I would have been on board with him.

This entire wall is commentary and only explaining what's happening.

The difference here is that I know my own alignment and I cared relatively little about my survival, and I also know my state of mind when writing. Yes, I was just reading the thread and reacting to things and bringing up stuff to see what sticks because we're supposed to solve this shit together, but I also wasn't tinfoiling anyone at all when I asked this. I didn't know if I would come across anything else by the time I was done catching up, so my primary intent was just to bring it up. I also kind of trusted you all to say something about it if you thought it was worth exploring, but yeah. I'm sorry I didn't go back to it, it's partially me lacking dilligence, partially me running out of time, partially me navigating a wagon, partially me scumreading bugkid for completely wrong reasons, partially me failing to figure out that if I didn't pursue it myself, people who do not know my status would obviously question why I didn't and partially me just not being ready to engage this hard in d0 for basically the first time ever lol.

Haha! I got you, it's still commentary and he's explaining what happened instead of telling you his reads!

Now, that's for my d0 comments, let's go back to the current phase. Like I said, I'm going to just reread the thread and write as I read, then I'll be up to date. I will try not to single out anything outside of my reads and engage with players in unique posts.

tldr; I'm going to reread

Now, the results. I'm honestly mindblown that both myself and weiss/sunfan are alive, but I'll talk about that in my next post along with a reorganization of voting history.

Bugkid flipping town absolutely blows my mind and I was excited to see which wolf they would flip, only to find out they didn't flip a wolf at all. That's absolutely crazy and I can't begin to interpret why they played the EOD the way they did. I just have to accept it and rethink the game with this in mind, and at the very least, they apparently played true to their game, not that I'm overly familiar with it, but it's worth what it's worth to keep it in mind.

Talking about facts, but no new perspective besides saying this will change his perspective. (already know everything who cares)

As for Raeko and Roundbox... Well, I think both are somewhat normal wolf kills, the bigger question is who was the Freikugel kill and why? I don't want the freikugel to claim, but neither of them were particularly thought to be wolf during d0 as they were never voted for. In either case, it implies the Freikugel acted on their own accord and not to solve something Town was particularly curious about (raeko was 50-50 to me and ara, I think? But she was in bugkid's trust list, much like roundbox who was basically in everyone's), but instead acted either on a gut feeling or more interestingly on something they saw that escaped us. I really wish I just knew what they were thinking, it could potentially be helpful.

Open ended, no new information on what H&H thinks etc. No surprise here.

Speaking of which, in post #402, Ara posted an updated reads list. I think it pretty much reflects the current state of the game, but somehow put raeko with me in the bottom. I don't think they were particularly suspicious of her prior, just putting her in the middle, which echoes my feelings, mostly because she's just a very difficult player to read. I'm going to refrain from judging this directly because I was critical of bugkid from shifting the same way and it backfired, but it's interesting they would post this even after the flip. I just don't really know what to think of it, so Ara, can you elaborate? You said you liked her bug vote the least, and I can see why, but we were the two wagons and she specifically started liking my post more when I started responding directly. Is there anything else?

Same.

Then we have the following:

So, Haku is pretty much right. If I'm completely honest and transparent about my interest in TWG, I join games with the hopes of finally rolling wolf, because it's so much more awesome to me. I definitely felt disappointment when I saw my role PM, because I think VT fucking sucks. Solving is fun and all that, but having actual strategic actions you can take beyond the you say I say and all the other meta bullshit is almost integral to my enjoyment. Anyone who's ever played with me knows I'm like this, and if you've never played with me and you doubt it, just look at the TWG game I hosted (It was the previous main TWG, we haven't had one since). The whole premise of it was to remove all vanilla roles and have a full game of only power roles. I find mechanics to be just as fun if not more fun than the rest of the game, and I legit dream of the day I will get to be wolf. If you wonder about my previous wolf games, I haven't had any. I replaced once in a complete lost cause (I think the player I replaced was the last wolf and had been seered or something) and I rolled SK once, which was fucking awesome but I got killed by a passive PR power, and it was bullshit.

This is basically the prologue of the fabricated haku narrative.

That being said, there are caveats. While I definitely am disappointed when I don't get a fun role with extra shit, I never join a game if I don't intend to commit no matter what. It's just ass for everyone else if a player doesn't try because they're dissatisfied with the role. While I genuinely attempt to play to my win con, whatever it is, it's also part of why I tend not to defend myself a whole lot in general because I don't feel like it overly matters. I understand that certainty is not something you can ever truly have unless you aren't vanilla and have access to extra information, you just have to wait for flips to have anything, and I'm not hot on that. Also, I notoriously hate playing out d0 for real. I feel like everything is too much of a reach and it's almost stressful to keep up with.

This is understandable for both alignments, it's a playstyle thing.

Haku's read on me is fair when it comes to my behavior in general, but any perceived lack of effort or interest is not really due to my role, I'm honestly trying to provide a good game effort. And yeah, I would definitely go for “cool plays” and I'm biding my time for my eventual wolfing. I will answer no question on the subject, but I will probably retire once I finally get to try it out for real. It is what it is.

Ok, that's about it for my catching up. I have individual reads, but I want to post my shit and then go have dinner before I come back. The following post will be about reorganizing voting history and my current headspace.

I probably didn't need to focus on that specific post, but my intention was to prove that even if it was a giant wallpost, not much has been said that helps build a town progression. It's always A happened then a reaction to A and moving to B etc. It's like a poker player holding their cards for as long as they can.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Voting chronology: (voter -> voted (current votecount): context)

D0:
Vote #1: MML -> Ara (1): suspicion over ara engaging with leetic on mechanical talks. Seemed reactive to MML and more strategic than engaging.
Vote #2: bugkid -> hate (1): callout vote wanting me to showup due to me failing to be around when I said I would.
vote #3: raeko -> hate (2): vote of pressure because she thought I was ignoring the game (but was obviously busy wallposting).
vote #4: Haku -> bugkid (1): Bothered by the vanilla wolf post, hypothesizing it might be due to first time wolf nerves.
vote #5: MML -> Weiss/sunfan (1): Didn't want to deal with a replacement and would rather solve the inactive, presumably to avoid dealing with a blank slate player for free?
vote #6: raeko -> Weiss/sunfan (2): Claims that it's a borderline shitpost vote just because the last time she did it, I happened to post soon after, despite Weiss not even reading the thread.
vote #7: leetic -> bugkid (2): vote of pressure because bugkid mentionned struggling to wolfread early, which leetic called out as either a lack of effort or a passive wolfing pattern.
vote #8: roundbox -> hate (2): would have voted earlier but thought I was closer to insta than I was. Voted because they were very skeptical of my lack of drive to further press bugkid on my initial question (I've gone over this, but it is what it is).
vote #9: ara -> hate (3): parked a vote on me due to process of elimination, being the only player they were fine voting for other than weiss/sunfan on d0.
vote #10: hate -> weiss/sunfan (3): Was a protective vote because I realized that if I was insta'd, there was a chance I was going to flip vengeful spirit, and I would guarantee the death of another town, so I figured I had to at least aim at something immediately to avoid being lynched without a vengeful target.
vote #11: hate -> bugkid (3): I reacted strongly to their read shift on Raeko, which I interpreted as an obvious performative comment rather than an attempt at engaging with the goal to solve the game.

{The following votes happened with 5 minutes left to EOD}

vote #12: MML -> bugkid (4): was reluctantly hesitating between bugkid and me, would have rather voted Weiss/sunfan, but as Weiss/sunfan was not an option for others, they voted on the current wagons
vote #13: Raeko -> hate (4): No context given, likely a wagon vote. Decided a minute later against it.
vote #14: Raeko -> bugkid (5 – insta'd): claimed she wanted to clear the stressed first time wolf angle.
vote #15: leetic -> hate (4 – didn't count): posted almost simultaneously with raeko's insta, no context given. Previously asked for the wagon'd players to claim PR if they were blue.

Raeko, roundbox and bugkid have all flipped town, so their votes and motives are now confirmed not to carry any wolf agenda. This leaves the following:

Vote #1: MML -> Ara (1)
vote #4: Haku -> bugkid (1)
vote #5: MML -> Weiss/sunfan (1)
vote #7: leetic -> bugkid (2)
vote #9: ara -> hate (3)
vote #10: hate -> weiss/sunfan (3)
vote #11: hate -> bugkid (3)
vote #12: MML -> bugkid (4)
vote #15: leetic -> hate (4 – didn't count)

Votes casted by roundbox, bugkid and raeko targeted me and weiss/sunfan if we exclude themselves, so the two of us have been considered by known non-wolves. Of the remaining players, Haku, Leetic and MML were never targeted. Very minimal pressure on Ara.

Roundbox and Raeko were nightkilled, one by a wolf, one by the vigilante.

D1:

Vote #1: sunfan -> hate (1): Didn't like my EOD, claims it's a vote of pressure.
Vote #2: sunfan -> leetic (1): Immediately rescinds the previous statement, claims that “leetic smells”. Assuming this it referring to gameplay, potentially just about body odour.
Vote #3: ara -> hate (1): vote of pressure, wants me to contribute more.
Vote #4: ara -> sunfan (1): No reason given. I think we can assume the votes so far are fairly non serious.
Vote #5: Haku -> No vote: Will be absent for the rest of the day.

And this is where we currently stand.

This is great if you want a resume of what happened, but it's just rehearsing facts of what happened.

I honestly have to vote for Hakulyte as it stands. He's the one who brought up how dangerous it is to not vote and didn't want to park a vote on sunfan despite knowing he will be absent.

Let me stop you here. The absolute ultimate giga fantastic unicorn unbelievable reason I didn't vote is because...

I didn't knew who to vote and I had to go work.

It's that simple. There's no 300 IQ play happening here. If there was such a thing, I would have wanted to be here to keep watch of it. That being said, now that I'm home and have more time to think about it, I can tell you that this very specific play in the context of my game progression meant that fmpov it was more detrimental for me to vote than it was to not vote "despite knowing there was a 11% shot" thing going on. I know it's sub-optimal, but I genuinely believed me voting someone randomly and being wrong could have created a greater risk somehow because people could have looked at my vote and if they convinced one person to join that wagon "because haku is town therefore his vote must be good" then poof, another mislynch. Not vote meant everyone had to think and it's what they did and they did great. I did not have a good vote in mind anyway and the flips are showing me that this was the right call.

What I think is going on here is that he thinks there's a chance we won't lynch him because of the fact that he hasn't a vote. He's also being a LOT more involved so far than he was the previous day (which was notoriously off for Haku), and he's many players' top town right now, so I think this comes from a place of safety.

That is true, by meta I would normally never have an issue here, but it would look back. I did weird stuff as town before. It's when it starts happening too many times that you can start raising red flags. Not when it can be justified.

He did give the reasoning that sunfan already had a vote and would only vote if ara unvoted, but I don't buy it considering how weak the vote on sunfan actually was, and sunfan lived because of this very principle.

I didn't like the sunfan vote, but wanted to park my vote here as a placeholder and then I changed my mind and didn't vote because it felt wrong and I ran out of time.

All the wolves need to do is pull it off one more day and they probably lock in the game. I do think he's been playing a great, useful game for us. He's kept every single player in his line of suspicion and has only voted for Bugkid in d0. He is in a great position to leverage his trust capital in order to steer the game, and therefore, I think he's the primary lynch candidate for today. If you reread him in iso, it seems to me that there's a good chance he has spent the game farming sympathy and suspicion in equal measure. Knowing Haku very personally, I think that's his gameplan here. At least judging by mechanics and flips, I can't see anything else.

It's the only way I know how to play this game "as town". As wolf, I usually sit back and almost transform into a reliable council member that can give you insightful advice because I know what people who needs trust want to hear. Here I was defending a wolf, mislynching a townie over a grammatical derp and asking Ara if she's town, a wolf and then give up and do world building together and then pray that the time spent together was enough trust leverage to town read each other. You don't do that as a wolf. Who go scum read someone for like 3 pages and then attempt to reevaluate and still be sus, but then almost being friend and give up and just town read 'cause I respect the effort. It's like a cultural thing I keep forgetting the moment my wincon change somehow.

I also think Thesunfan is the other wolf. There's obviously nothing indicating this in the meta, other than the fact that Weiss completely ghosted the game and wolves apparently are demotivated when they roll it. Not only that, but the aforementionned haku plan and behavior works best for him if he's solo wolfing, which is what would have happened during d0 due to the absence of Weiss. I think the threat of parking the vote on sunfan itself is nothing but a soft bussing just in case something went wrong, and even then, he didn't even commit to it, and again, this makes a lot of sense if we look at this behavior like he was justifying it by requesting ara to unvote. The ONLY thing that I don't understand is why we are both alive. I don't know what the freikugel was thinking if both myself and sunfan are alive. It's ok for them to believe that I wasn't a target, but the people who weren't interested in killing me in d0 were definitely interested in killing weiss, due to inactivity and other dynamic. I don't understand how they could pick raeko or roundbox over me and weiss/sunfan, and I think this is much more likely to make sense if sunfan is the freikugel, as they themselves are not an option and it becomes me vs others. However, that also implies that weiss ghosted a game with such a fantastic omega cool role, and while everyone enjoys the game for their own reason, I decide that this isn't likely. I also don't know how sunfan picks either raeko or roundbox here, but sunfan is a galaxy brained player compared to me, so... yeah. I don't think there's a scenario where sunfan is a VT here, so let's proceed with caution, but for now, I think Haku is who I would like to go down.

I will now go eat and expand on things I didn't touch when I'm back, but like, plz don't accuse me of not giving a fuck, I'm trying rly hard to play right especially since I should prolly be doing homework lul[/quote]
Gonna skip that 'cause we basically know everyone's alignment by this point.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Murphy's law. I work overtime tomorrow so, I'll might be up around 12:20-12:30am server time, but that's nowhere enough time to find anything particularly convincing.

I would prefer if this somehow ends tonight.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

Does nobody else think it's weird in this specific game for HAKU to allow himself not to have a vote, where we all know that if he is VT and we lynch him, there's a 1 in 3 chance to fucking nuke another town, and that he knows we know because he brought it up himself?

I totally understand not wanting to lynch someone that can't defend themselves, but come on?

I didn't even consider this because I'm town in the first place tbh. You did tho.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

I am tipping my hand rn but hateandhatred (henceforth referred to as sven) is probably my 2nd top town and I don't really like the way that it feels like this phase is headed between him and I

I should firstly say that there is a sizable distance between him and haku in terms of how strongly I townread them, like really big
I could end this phase voting for sven and feel good about it, and I didn't have a particularly strong townread on him before (it was a scumread even)
but his post where he feels like he needs to remain committed to the game, even if he isn't happy with his role

idk man

it just feels like the vanilla town-flavored truth and not something a wolf brewed up

his vote on haku also feels like townsven just sussing something out, again, I'm not sure if I can word this right, but that kind of thought process seems hard for a wolf to genuinely fake

I know sven is more mechanics-focused, and the vote/push is mechanics based
it is just a bit more like... creative? than wolves normally are

fwiw I do think sven's last eod where he waffled before claiming VT was sus, maybe I should ask him about that idk
sven when you read this can you talk about what was going through your mind when (I think it was leetic?) asked you if you were a role?

to me, it literally felt like you went into wolfchat and asked your partner what you should do

I think I found why you're alive.

[Hakulyte]

Re: TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

well, in any case, I was operating under the assumption that wolfchat would be off during the day, and since you just brought it up, it honestly makes me want to sus the fuck out of you like you've been wolfchatting for a while

I still think haku is the obvious mechanical option and knowing him as a person, I totally picture him seeing the checkmate of "heh, if I'm unvoted, they won't vote me because of the vengeful spirit" with a monkey emogi, but you're high on my shitlist for that

Dumbtelling again as wolf to get town cred.



A)Confuse mechanics (on purpose)
B)Confuse wolfchat in OP (on purpose despite being written properly in OP)
C)leetic coaching
etc.


We're starting to have a profile here.