TWG XIV Emergency Voting

[chardish]

Only vote if you were a member of TWG XIV.

Options:
-Rerandomize the roles for the last time and restart the game. Let's do this right this time, with a clean slate.
-I want to play a normal TWG - cut the tribal crap.
-Chardish, you've had your chance, get someone else to host.

[HansSky]

Let's label them 1-2-3 or A-B-C, no?

This game had me thinking a whole lot, and I got pretty scared a couple times. I say we give it another shot.

A

EDIT: And Sayban chieftans, you can still try and contact me if you want, even though it doesn't matter. :(

[nforcer06164]

-Rerandomize the roles for the last time and restart the game. Let's do this right this time, with a clean slate.

It's been insanity over and over again, but I'm willing to give it a try one more time.

[Demon_Of_The_Comet]

-Rerandomize the roles for the last time and restart the game. Let's do this right this time, with a clean slate.

The Demon has spoken, lets get dis shit goin.
Lol

[talisman]

I'll go A / 1 I guess. I'm not too fond of the tribal business but it does make it interesting and adds alot of special roles.

Wolves, if you kill me on night one again...

[lightdarkness]

Dear Chardish,

You rock as a TWG host. The things that have happend the past two days aren't your fault. Tass screwed up, then a balencing issue arose, and NEEDED to be fixed, causing Tass to bitch, proving humanity. Now... Hans and I used our supirior TWG skills, and it ended up being bad luck.

Don't be mad, get glad, cause you are getting a 4th chance. I look forward to TWG XIV ~4th Style~

Love,

LD

[alainbryden]

Tass is going to be pissed, as am I, that this game was aborted. I'll hold off my vote.

[chardish]

For you...
http://www.lightdarkness42.com/chardish/tasspip.jpg

[Tasselfoot]

I have 1 thing to say.....


TWG 14 is over. I'm calling for a TWC vote on this matter. The game was "halted" because Hans/LD got Spheroid to tell them the other 3 wolves. Know what? I already KNEW all 4 wolves. Alderoth ALREADY HAD a tribal victory LOCKED. 100% Guarenteed. All 9 Alderoths were on the same page and agreed in strategy under my leadership. Kilga/Kefit were our wolves, and helped get a Sayban killed night 1, then told me the Sayban wolves to get killed day 1/2. By Day 3 it would have been 9-4 Alderoth, and we were going to ask the 4 remaining Sayban players to resign....

So, I don't see how Spheroid telling Hans/LD the other 3 wolves was SUCH A BIG DEAL, as the Alderoth wolves had already told me all 4 wolves!!! So.... Chardish fucked up. AGAIN. I Want my god damn pip. TWG 14 is over, Alderoth won by tribal victory. Alain, Blah, Demon, Flux, Kilga, Kefit, Mead, Tass, Whorli all won that game.

And, if TWC decided that this is NOT the case (we have 3 TWCers on team Alderoth...), Screw off Chardish... the game was fine twice now and you dicked it up. First time, my fault... 2nd and 3rd, yours... and I had the game won both times. Not nearly as certainly in the 2nd run, but in this run... 100%. And there was NO REASON AT ALL... to abort the game because Spheroid talked. That is strategy. I knew all 4 wolves from my team's wolves... why couldn't Hans/LD know all 4 wolves?

You goofed Chardish, big time. Hell no I don't want you running another TWG game. You see 1 tiny thing go wrong, and you instantly jump on it and try and skew it in the other direction, or end the game altogether. It happened in Infiltration, and twice now in this game.

C Lets move on to TWG 15 with team Alderoth the winners.

[lightdarkness]

I'm changing my vote to B or C

Tribal games are flawed

[Kilgamayan]

While I'm not going to delve into who fucked up what (because that's a matter of opinion and I can stay out of it, so I will), I will confirm what Tass has said about all 9 Alderoth tribe knowing each other (aside from Kefit who was still at work). He also knew all four wolves because I told him with the tribal victory 100% in mind. Tass is right, the game was over. There was nothing Sayban could do about it if they wanted to because I would never agree with Jenova to kill an Alderoth (thereby causing us to simply lose the kill for the night) and Alderoth would never vote off one of their own.

I'm going to hold off voting on both votes currently on the floor I can take part in for now, but I seriously doubt I will vote A for the first one because given this most recent development and assuming relative intelligence from everyone, the game would be decided on a Day 1 knife-in-the-box. =\

Note to Spheroid and Jenova: My apologies for selling you out, but I saw what was a guaranteed win for Kefit and myself so I went with it. Nothing personal.

[chardish]

LD, you're wrong. Tribal games are only flawed when everyone fesses up their tribe Night 1. This is as much of an invitation for disaster as all of the wolves confessing they were wolves Night 1, and people didn't realize it. That's the only "flaw" - you don't trust other people with your tribe unless you know they're trustable. I'm sure a bunch of Saybans confessed they were Saybans to help the Alderoths gain more confident of their numbers.

I know you were one of the Saybans, and to be honest, y'all screwed up when trying to figure out how to deal with the Alderoth problem. You had a bunch of options:

1) Go to some of the more impressionable Alderoth members and try to convince them that Tass is scheming for whichever side they're not on. Sow doubt and distrust.
2) Claim you're an Alderoth yourself, and throw a cog in their machinery. They couldn't possibly have everyone seered Night 1, so everyone was just trusting each others' word. Better yet, have your whole tribe claim they're Alderoth. Why did no one try to lie about their tribe?
3) Encourage the humans to go racial as soon as you know all 4 wolves. It's an easier win, right? Plus, it's quicker, which means less of an opportunity for something to go wrong.

Tass, you seem to be losing the distinction between game and reality. If "you worked your ass off" not to have fun, but just so you could get a pip, then that kind of encourages me to end the whole banner thing altogether.

[Kilgamayan]

Better yet, have your whole tribe claim they're Alderoth. Why did no one try to lie about their tribe?

Because everyone was expecting to go for a racial victory, even the four wolves. Thus, no one cared about tribes. mead happened to gather 7 or 8 people who said Alderoth, gave their names to Tass, and he went with it from there.

[flux_]

If everyone wants chardish to host another one, I say no tribal games. In theory (to me) it sounded good, but actually seeing it in action, it didn't turn out so well.

I honstly don't care if chardish hosts another one or not. You guys can figure that out.

[chardish]

Better yet, have your whole tribe claim they're Alderoth. Why did no one try to lie about their tribe?

Because everyone was expecting to go for a racial victory, even the four wolves. Thus, no one cared about tribes. mead happened to gather 7 or 8 people who said Alderoth, gave their names to Tass, and he went with it from there.

Idiots. On a Game 1 ImEric-level scale.

If everyone's going for a racial victory and someone asks me my tribe, I say, "Why does it matter if we're going for a racial victory?" It's a fact, isn't it?

[Tasselfoot]

Chardish... I just want recognition for the work I put into winning this game for my team. Kilga and I spent a while discussing it last night, getting everything together, working it out... And, it just isn't fair of you to end the game because LD starts blabbing his mouth to you.

Alderoth won this game, and my whole TEAM deserves to be recognized for winning.

[lightdarkness]

Ok

Alderoth won

Happy?

You still aren't getting pip's

[flypie743]

forum drama++

Hey guys, you are all fighting over...

A PIP..way to be mature guys.



I think I'm glad I missed the sign ups for this one =/

[Tasselfoot]

I'm fighting on principle. Why did Chardish end the game? There is no reason whatsoever he should have done that. The 9 of us worked on this, put time into it, and would like the recognition we earned for it. The game may have even been interesting had it gone on, with 3-4 people knowing all the wolves, plus knowing we're still going for tribal victory. We'll never know. Well... could have been interesting, but the outcome was fixed. I was enjoying talking to Hans/LD last night, giving them hope of human victory.

::sigh:: If nothing else, Chardish should never host a game again that is new.

[Kilgamayan]

You still aren't getting pip's

Disclaimer: I don't care one way or the other about getting a pip for this game. I'm competitive, yes, but not to that extent.

That being said, I hardly think you have a say in the matter considering we would be getting one if it wasn't for you. At the very least, mead and Tass deserve pips for the work they did.

[Demon_Of_The_Comet]

Whoa, am i the only one who doesnt care about a pip?
I just play this cuz its fun, and somewhat competitively.


Im changing my vote to B
Tribal sounds good, but in action it just doesnt work out.
Also we should just give Tass a pip, he kinda did work at this.
Or if not we could just start over with original rules and stuff cuz Chardish isnt doing so hot with the tribal thing =/

[lightdarkness]

Hans and I talked to spheriod for like 2-3 hours, and I believe hans got in trouble with his parents for staying on the computer too long.

It took a lot of effort for us to get that info out of him.

Honestly, when tass was gonna come out and say they were going tribal, we would've fought back. What do you think everyone would've gone for? A victory that took 6 or so days, or 4. More people would win if we just went for the wolves, Tass was just being an elitest, trying to keep victory in a tight group.

Regardless, I say TWG 14 is restarted, different host. (nudge, me, nudge)

[mead1]

Ok, well this game has certainly had problems. From beginning to "end". But I side with Tass completely on the fact that the Alderoth team should get pips for this game. For almost the entirety of the time before Day 1, Alderoth members were hard at work poking and prodding to find the others (Though some did more than others). Had the game not ended, we were insured victory. Not because we did anything unfair, but because we played the game well. Since we won this game, fair and square, why should we be deprived of what comes of victory?

@Chard No one was expecting a tribal push because everyone in chat had made it look like their opinion was "screw tribal", and because a victory by racial only required 4 kills, not 9. You were so hot on the tribal idea in chat, and the Alderoth team did that. We played as effectively as it is possible to do so. You wanted tribal victory, you got it.

[Tasselfoot]

LD... I come out on day 4 with NINE of us in a group, vs FOUR... and, in either case, it ends on day 5. Do your math buddy.

Also, I know you spent hours and hours interrogating Spheroid... I found that funny, knowing you were still losing regardless.

[lightdarkness]

Chardish is gonna have the final say, I just think that this argument is Alderoth vs Sayban.

[Tasselfoot]

Err.. day 3.

[lightdarkness]

LD... I come out on day 4 with NINE of us in a group, vs FOUR... and, in either case, it ends on day 5. Do your math buddy.

Also, I know you spent hours and hours interrogating Spheroid... I found that funny, knowing you were still losing regardless.
Jay: day 4 1 is lynched
Jay: so 3 on night 5
Jay: one wolfed
Jay: 2 on day 5
Jay: one lynched
Jay: 1 on night 6
Jay: victory day 7
Jay: do YOUR math

PS: Glad you acknowladge I was working too.

[Kilgamayan]

Ok, well this game has certainly had problems. From beginning to "end". But I side with Tass completely on the fact that the Alderoth team should get pips for this game. For almost the entirety of the time before Day 1, Alderoth members were hard at work poking and prodding to find the others (Though some did more than others). Had the game not ended, we were insured victory. Not because we did anything unfair, but because we played the game well. Since we won this game, fair and square, why should we be deprived of what comes of victory?

@Chard No one was expecting a tribal push because everyone in chat had made it look like their opinion was "screw tribal", and because a victory by racial only required 4 kills, not 9. You were so hot on the tribal idea in chat, and the Alderoth team did that. We played as effectively as it is possible to do so. You wanted tribal victory, you got it.

Hot damn, you rule.

I also found it pretty funny that in the end, chardish got his tribal victory.

Also, for math:

Night 1: Sayban 1 dies
Day 1: Spheroid (Sayban 2) dies
Night 2: No one dies (worst case)
Day 2: Jenova (Sayban 3) dies
Night 3: Sayban 4 dies (no Sayban wolves left)
Day 3: Sayban 5 dies
Night 4: Sayban 6 dies
Day 4: Sayban 7 dies
Night 5: Sayban 8 dies
Day 5: Sayban 9 dies, Alderoth wins

If I get Jenova to help me lynch a Sayban (Hans was the most likely choice even given the Sayban guardian) then it only takes until Night 5.

It ends on Interval 5 either way.

[lightdarkness]

Happy now tass? *points to your sig*

[Kefit]

Some experiments don't work out.

This was one of them. The problem with tribal, as far as I see it, is that it is useless if you don't know the majority of tribal affiliations, and it gives victory to whichever tribe has more living players if one does have this information.

Anyway, I vote B. Chardish's experiment may have failed, but I see no reason not to let him host a game closer to the norm.

[lightdarkness]

If you guys and Chardish want, I have a normal TWG all ready to go, roles all prepared, everything. I've explained it to Kilga and he seems to be cool with it. Just need to hear from Chardish.

[Kilgamayan]

And by "Kilga seems cool with it" he means "While Kilga doesn't care one way or the other who hosts, he has helped LD set up his plans properly for when he wishes to use them."

>_>

[lightdarkness]

That too XD

[chardish]

This whole "Chardish got his tribal victory" thing is ridiculous.

I didn't care whether the victory was racial or tribal. Get this through your heads. The reason the game was flawed the second time was because everyone ignored tribes, and the game was stacked. This didn't mean that "I wanted a tribal victory", this simply meant that the game didn't work if no one cared about tribes.

What happened the second game was that people still assumed that no one cared about tribes, so no one really had a problem giving them up. This was, in a word, boneheaded. You should have realized that if tribes didn't matter, and everyone was going for a racial victory, then if people "on your side" want to know what your tribe is, your plan for racial victroy is going horribly, horribly wrong. Remember, if you're going for racial victory, tribes don't matter!

I didn't end the game because Alderoth was going to win. I knew this, and I was willing to let the game play out. I ended the game because people were under the false assumption that the roles were random, and they most clearly were not. That's unfair to the players, and I understand it. That's why I ended the game. Not because victory was assured, but because the rules of the game weren't known to the players.

I'd like to start TWG XIV over with LD in charge this time, under the sole condition that he makes it a "classic" TWG - 16 players, 3 wolves, 1 seer, 1 guardian, 1 psychic, nothing else. I try to be innovative and people get pissed at me for it. Maybe we'll run the tribal game somewhere down the road. But I don't want to exhaust all my OMG HOST IS STRESSED right now anymore, especially right before finals week. I'd also like to play - something I haven't done since TWG VIII.

Tass - It's a 25 square pixel PNG, it's not worth crying about. I can't believe it's that important to you.

[lightdarkness]

Randomizing roles...

THE SPECIAL ROLES WILL BE CONTACTED VIA AIM. IF YOU DON'T HEAR FROM ME WHEN I POST THE THREAD, THAT MEANS YOU ARE HUMAN.

[Kilgamayan]

So are we simply going to sub you in for LD and keep all other players the same?

EDIT: I guess that's a yes.

[chardish]

He needs to cut two.

[lightdarkness]

No, we are dropping down to 16 as per chardish

we have to cut demon and spheriod. Sorry guys, but thats what chardish said

[Tasselfoot]

As I'm trying to get a TWC ruling on TWG14 counting or not... I'd appreciate holding off on re-starting, or, be willing to change the name to TWG15 if the council so decides.

[lightdarkness]

I really don't care what the hell it's called. Its not a big deal to change it to TWG 15 after it's started

The game will start when I have all info, regardless of what number it is.

[evilbutterfly]

I don't see why we didn't just do Inf 2 instead of all this tribal stuff. Everybody loved Infiltration, and you promised number 2 when you came back, and instead we get this tribal thing that nobody liked. But I shan't complain, that'd be selfish of me. But I must say, there's been way too much drama over this silly game.

[lightdarkness]

TWG: We Know Drama

[GuidoHunter]

I completely agree with Kefit.

chardish explained this game to me before we came back from Lent, and I was all for it. This game sounded awesome, but looking at how it played out I see no reason for it not to take the same turn if we restarted. The premise is good and it would work extremely well but people just don't want to play the fun way.

And Tass, c'mon. You worked for half a night and want credit for an entire game. Sure, victory seemed at hand, but c'mon, we didn't even get through Day 1. Quit whining about your pip and let's just move on to the next game.

And eb, chardish was so excited about this game that he wanted to play it before Infiltration II. He didn't forget. =)

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[flypie743]

I think this picture pretty much sums up this whole thing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/ImEric12/internetfight.jpg*

*image stolen from eric's LJ, thx eric <4

[Kilgamayan]

flypie, don't troll, please.

[Demon_Of_The_Comet]

Hey WTF why am i cut out?
This was supposed to be my first TWG
>_<

Thanks a lot >_>

[Spheroid]

I'm not going to complain about being cut, because it's not going to change anything, and by the way TWG works in these circumstances, I'd be the first person to go. Anyway, although the game idea was good, people are going to play it in a way that won't work (a.k.a. telling everyone what their tribe is). Really, the only way to make things worse is perfectly balancing the want to go for a standard victory to a tribal victory. The only problem there being that it would take a lot of luck and be difficult to pull off. If someone tries this again sometime, consider making it three tribes, so if everyone finds out each other's tribe, the game won't be completely unbalanced (24 players would be ideal for that).

What I think happened with me in the game was I was one of the only ones to refuse to tell Tasselfoot my tribe. This would've been fine had I been human, but with him in contact with the seer, he figured out my role. I had some ideas on how to defend myself, but I took too long thinking about them and lost my chance to argue. Ld and Hans then contacted me, saying they needed my help to even have a chance for a Sayban victory. I might have made things worse than they already were by believing it was a trick against me. They could've gotten the names of all the wolves, contacted Tass, and with the back up off the seer, easily gotten a human victory. I didn't realize that with Tass in a garunteed place of victory, that he wanted to get go tribal. Yet all that arguing last night didn't really matter because all the information was already leaked to Tass, and their side had majority after night one. I knew something was up when Kilga was pushing to kill Talisman, but I didn't have anything better to offer, and at the time, I was convinced everyone was split between which victory to go for.

Anyway, enjoy TWG XIV/XV. I'll hope to play next game.

[nforcer06164]

As I'm trying to get a TWC ruling on TWG14 counting or not... I'd appreciate holding off on re-starting, or, be willing to change the name to TWG15 if the council so decides.
Um, pardon my asking, but why does it matter? Please don't tell me it's still about a pip.

[Kilgamayan]

Read mead's second page post again.

I seriously doubt we could actually force chardish to add pips to banners, but given three of the TWC members were on the Alderoth team, you can bet we're going to vote as such unless blah has a change in heart.

And if it's all for "just a pip", then what's the harm in adding it? It is, after all, "just a pip".

I'm getting tired of people posting arguments equivalent to "lol, internet" and no one providing any actual legitimate reasons as to why the Alderoth team should not be awarded a victory.

[mead1]

Amen to that Kilga. The whole pip thing boils down to this. We did the work, we should reap the rewards. Everyone is saying that is insignificant, but it really isn't. It is a simple matter of logic. When the pips were first instated, they were to be given to the winning team of a TWG. I think that is still the meaning but I haven't checked recently. If anyone can offer a scenario in which the Alderoth tribe could lose this game, I'll back down and say not another word about it. But until then, I want my damn pip for winning TWG XIV.

[Spheroid]

By the rules, it seems that the Alderoth tribe should get a pip, but it really doesn't seem like they deserve it to me. Really, all that happend was that the Alderoth wolves convinced the Sayban wolves to get a majority, and everyone was told pretty much everyone's tribe. From there, unless some big twist occurs, it's a garunteed win. Plus, Chardish stopped the game for reasons that did not concern the fact that Alderoth had an assured victory. Lastly, the way the game played was much different than any regular TWG could be. I don't believe anyone got a pip for Infiltration (this may not be legit because Infiltration was not titled "TWG"). So anyway, that's my opinion.

[nforcer06164]

There is no guarantee you guys would win. Remember, it was mentioned that we could've lied about our tribe and screwed it all up. I should be angry that I was a seer on the 2nd set of roles and then it got taken away, only to find that the seers were still around, right? Shouldn't I have been upset? After all, I could have received a blue pip if I did things right. But hey, it's a game. I whined playfully, but it was no big deal to me.

So, you guys want a pip? I don't really care myself. The TWC, with three members on Alderoth, will most likely vote in favor so they can have another pip. But I as well as you will always remember that the last rerandomization was flawed, making the game stacked from the start. We'll remember how you got the pip. Most importantly, the way you vote on this will reveal something about your character. Do you believe in fair play? Well, we'll find out soon enough.

[chardish]

Reasons why I don't want to give a pip for this one:

1) I annulled the game. I essentially realized my mistake was with not honestly rerandomizing the roles, and that's why I halted it. The game was started under false pretenses. That's completely not fair.
2) If I give a pip, this means that this pathetic little attempt at trying something different, that lasted barely 24 hours, counts as a TWG, and carries the same weight as any other game. Equality is really at the heart of the matter - I don't want to give this game the same weight as any others. If you're leading 1-0 in the World Series and, by freak coincidence, the other team's hotel burns down in the middle of the night, do you really want to call yourselves "World Series Champions?" Doesn't it feel a tad unmerited? I'd kind of like to forget this whole incident really happened. In my eyes, there were no winners, and I was the only loser.

Regarding the TWC voting, I was really hoping that this would be a matter of deciding what people deserve, instead of a HOT DOG! ALDEROTH MAJORITY! THAT MEANS WE GET PIPS sort of affair.

[QreepyBORIS]

Being as how stupid the tribes idea was and how poorly it worked out, I see no reason for you to reap barely-earned benefits from Chardish's mistake.

Stacked teams is hardly fair in any event.

[Kilgamayan]

There is no guarantee you guys would win. Remember, it was mentioned that we could've lied about our tribe and screwed it all up.
But you didn't. Maybe if we had played again, you could've, but in the only game that went beyond Night 1, you didn't.

I should be angry that I was a seer on the 2nd set of roles and then it got taken away, only to find that the seers were still around, right? Shouldn't I have been upset?
I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion of who won or what they should get, if anything.

After all, I could have received a blue pip if I did things right.
Note the "if". The key there is that you didn't do things right. We did.

The TWC, with three members on Alderoth, will most likely vote in favor so they can have another pip.
Pardon us for trying to maintain the rules.

But I as well as you will always remember that the last rerandomization was flawed, making the game stacked from the start.
How the hell was the game "stacked"? Let me teach you and everyone else here a little bit about probability:

A coin is flipped 10 times. It comes up heads every time. Your goal is to guess what the 11th flip will be. If you say heads, what are the odds you will be right? 50%.

Same scenario, except it's tails all 10 times. Odds of flip 11 being heads? 50%.

Now it goes HTTHTHHTHT. Odds of flip 11 being heads? Still 50%.

See what I'm getting at?

Draw two was Kefit, Spheroid, Jenova and myself. What are the odds that the third draw is Kefit, Spheroid, Jenova and myself? Not very large, but they're no larger or smaller than the odds that the third draw is you, LD, alain and Hans, or Tass, blah, Guido and Kefit, or any other four-person combo you can think of.

Bottom line: No matter how chardish was doing his draws, they were going to produce a four person combination that, for all intents and purposes for the remaining humans, was random. I could host a game where I hand-pick every single role just because I want to see how it works out, and if I never tell anyone, everyone will assume every role was chosen at random. What if I had handpicked Tass, stretchy, alain, Jurs and Hans? Would Dark Matters have been any different than how it turned out when they were chosen randomly?

And on a side note, assuming that just because Group X of people are wolves in this draw, they won't be wolves in the next one as 100% factual is stupid. If you're going to base your assumptions about a wolf draw on previous draws, you're a damn fool and deserve to lose.

We'll remember how you got the pip.
Yeah, by outthinking my/our enemies. Isn't that the goal of the game?

Most importantly, the way you vote on this will reveal something about your character.
That we're willing to put work into getting a reward? I thought everyone already knew that about Tass, blah and myself. I don't like riding coattails to victory (I even told someone I don't think I deserve a pip for Manhunt), and I'm sure they feel the same way.

Do you believe in fair play?
Are you implying we cheated?

1) I annulled the game. I essentially realized my mistake was with not honestly rerandomizing the roles, and that's why I halted it. The game was started under false pretenses. That's completely not fair.
Read my above probability rant to see why your methods of randomization were irrelevant.

2) If I give a pip, this means that this pathetic little attempt at trying something different, that lasted barely 24 hours, counts as a TWG, and carries the same weight as any other game. Equality is really at the heart of the matter - I don't want to give this game the same weight as any others.
The game ended so fast because you stopped it, and only because you stopped it. If you had not stopped it, it would have regular length (well, a bit shorter given we already had our path to victory set up). Length of game holds no weight because the game was 100% over at that point and it was only a matter of time before all the Saybans were dead.

If you're leading 1-0 in the World Series and, by freak coincidence, the other team's hotel burns down in the middle of the night, do you really want to call yourselves "World Series Champions?" Doesn't it feel a tad unmerited?
If baseball rules stated that the Series was not over despite all those deaths, then I would not accept a ring. However, that's not what happened. What happened, to use your analogy, was Paul Tagliabue stepping in and declaring the World Series to be stopped because he meant for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and Atlanta Braves to switch divisions before the season began. It could have continued under any other circumstances, but he ended it early. If I was on the team up 1-0, then I would have no qualms accepting a ring, because the Series ended with my team in the lead win-wise.

Regarding the TWC voting, I was really hoping that this would be a matter of deciding what people deserve, instead of a HOT DOG! ALDEROTH MAJORITY! THAT MEANS WE GET PIPS sort of affair.

Tass, blah (I assume) and myself all feel that the Alderoth team deserves pips because they won the game, and our votes would reflect that.

Being as how stupid the tribes idea was and how poorly it worked out, I see no reason for you to reap barely-earned benefits from Chardish's mistake.

Stacked teams is hardly fair in any event.

Sayban's fault it got out-thought by Alderoth and didn't warn its wolves against killing talisman. Maybe you'll play better next time as to prevent this, eh?

[ImEric12]

I realize I'm not a part of this game, but reading the thread brought an interesting thought to mind.

And, if TWC decided that this is NOT the case (we have 3 TWCers on team Alderoth...),


This seems really unfair to me. There should be a limit of how many TWC members can participate in each game, so if something like this were to come up, the majority of the TWC doesn't have a biased, in-game opinion. Just an idea.


edit: oh and, you're welcome flypie <4

[nforcer06164]

There is no guarantee you guys would win. Remember, it was mentioned that we could've lied about our tribe and screwed it all up.
But you didn't. Maybe if we had played again, you could've, but in the only game that went beyond Night 1, you didn't.
You didn't win either, did you?



I should be angry that I was a seer on the 2nd set of roles and then it got taken away, only to find that the seers were still around, right? Shouldn't I have been upset?
I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion of who won or what they should get, if anything.
You're complaining. I'm not. There's a difference there.



After all, I could have received a blue pip if I did things right.
Note the "if". The key there is that you didn't do things right. We did.
Did you? I thought the game was never finished. Your victory was ensured... in circumstance.



The TWC, with three members on Alderoth, will most likely vote in favor so they can have another pip.
Pardon us for trying to maintain the rules.
The rules seem to be being used to give you the pip you so desire. That doesn't seem like fair, unbiased rules to me.



But I as well as you will always remember that the last rerandomization was flawed, making the game stacked from the start.
How the hell was the game "stacked"? Let me teach you and everyone else here a little bit about probability: PROBABILITY STUFF NFORCER ALREADY KNEW
It is possible that the same wolves would've been chosen again. But the odds are so heavily against it, that it's almost impossible on a second subsequent time. They'd have to be on the same tribes, too. I wouldn't bet on it happening, and I know you wouldn't either. The game was stacked because a majority knew who the wolves were, and they weren't rerandomized so they were secret once again. Please don't say that isn't stacked, or unfair.



We'll remember how you got the pip.
Yeah, by outthinking my/our enemies. Isn't that the goal of the game?
No, by voting, "Yes, Alderoth won TWG XIV." That's what it's coming down to this "game", which was never finished.



Most importantly, the way you vote on this will reveal something about your character.
That we're willing to put work into getting a reward? I thought everyone already knew that about Tass, blah and myself. I don't like riding coattails to victory (I even told someone I don't think I deserve a pip for Manhunt), and I'm sure they feel the same way.
No, that you are willing to vote a win for yourself on unfair circumstances. And you're doing it because you were given a privilege. Corrupt leadership isn't uncommon, don't become a statistic.



Do you believe in fair play?
Are you implying we cheated?
I'm implying it was unfair. You didn't cheat. But you didn't win, either.



1) I annulled the game. I essentially realized my mistake was with not honestly rerandomizing the roles, and that's why I halted it. The game was started under false pretenses. That's completely not fair.
Read my above probability rant to see why your methods of randomization were irrelevant.
It's hardly irrelevant. The odds are so astronomical in this situation that you can't base it on probability at all.



2) If I give a pip, this means that this pathetic little attempt at trying something different, that lasted barely 24 hours, counts as a TWG, and carries the same weight as any other game. Equality is really at the heart of the matter - I don't want to give this game the same weight as any others.
The game ended so fast because you stopped it, and only because you stopped it. If you had not stopped it, it would have regular length (well, a bit shorter given we already had our path to victory set up). Length of game holds no weight because the game was 100% over at that point and it was only a matter of time before all the Saybans were dead.
100% over? Were all the Saybans dead? Were all the wolves dead? it was unfinished. It wasn't a full game. You know that. You can't argue that.



If you're leading 1-0 in the World Series and, by freak coincidence, the other team's hotel burns down in the middle of the night, do you really want to call yourselves "World Series Champions?" Doesn't it feel a tad unmerited?
If baseball rules stated that the Series was not over despite all those deaths, then I would not accept a ring. However, that's not what happened. What happened, to use your analogy, was Paul Tagliabue stepping in and declaring the World Series to be stopped because he meant for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and Atlanta Braves to switch divisions before the season began. It could have continued under any other circumstances, but he ended it early. If I was on the team up 1-0, then I would have no qualms accepting a ring, because the Series ended with my team in the lead win-wise.
Boston Red Sox vs. Yankees in the League Playoffs last year. Boston - 0 games. Yankees - 3 games. You know the rest. It's not over 'til it's over. and the TWG was far from over. You had no guarantee at a win.



Regarding the TWC voting, I was really hoping that this would be a matter of deciding what people deserve, instead of a HOT DOG! ALDEROTH MAJORITY! THAT MEANS WE GET PIPS sort of affair.

Tass, blah (I assume) and myself all feel that the Alderoth team deserves pips because they won the game, and our votes would reflect that.
Once again, YOU DID NOT WIN. Nothing said "Alderoth victory", did it? Right, because the game never ended.

[lightdarkness]

INTERNET DRAMA

[nforcer06164]

I can't believe I'm actually arguing about this anymore >_<

[stretchypanda]

Mmkay, so I wasn't in the game, and Flypie has set a magnificent precedent for people not involved in the game posting in this thread, but I'm sure I can redeem myself.

As far as anyone being awarded a victory goes, this is seriously just a ridiculous example of finding a hole and running with it. I wasn't aware that winning this game was THAT important to any of you that you'd want it over in three seconds. I personally enjoy being made to think about what I am doing, and things like what happened here completely killed that for anyone else who may feel as I do about these games.

If it's really that important to you, take your pips, and take your "easy" victory, and enjoy knowing that you didn't have to work at all. Tass, I am aware that you have claimed to have put a lot of work into this. HOWEVER, the game didn't even last a day, so you couldn't have lost THAT much sleep over it.

[Kilgamayan]

Trust me when I say I'm pissed as all hell that chardish completely screwed the Alderoth team by ending the game early for a reason that was completely unrelated to its tactics and would not have affected the outcome of the game one bit. This was the only reason why the game was stopped, and it's stupid that the host screwing up (and not even doing so, only thinking he did) costs NINE PEOPLE the win they had earned.

The end of this game was an absolute farce, and everyone and their mother knows Alderoth had it won, which is why chardish ending it early is irrelevant toward determining whether people should be awarded a victory or not. Random game-ending decision aside, Alderoth wins, and you know it, which is why they still deserve credit.

And don't give me your "unfair" shit. For one reason or another, I managed to draw wolf three times, a role I relish playing far more than human (no matter what type), and then all three times I get screwed out of it by circumstances 100% beyond my control. THAT is unfair, and the fact that I'm not only getting screwed out of a role I wanted (three times to boot) but also a win that I worked for is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm not going to stop working until I get some sort of reparation for it. "Internet" be damned.

EDIT: Affirming my part in below statement.

[lightdarkness]

Internet Drama Terminated.

This matter will be sorted out calmly between the people who have the authority to make those decisions. Whatever discussion deemed nessecary to share with the rest of the group, will be shown.

Love,

LD and Kilga

[chardish]

Odds of getting the same 4 wolves 2 times in a row: (4/18) * (3/17) * (2/16) * (1/15) = (24/73,400) = 00.032%

This is a very good real-world example of a Monty Hall problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_hall_problem), which essentially proves that random probability gets tossed out the window when a decision you claim is random really isn't. It definitely applies here.

P.S.
Odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime: 00.033% (source: National Weather Service)

[Tasselfoot]

Hate to keep dragging the dead horse, but I felt this needed to at least be pointed out.... and, I didn't get to voice my opinion in the past hours...

1. Kilga is absolutely right in everything he's said. Yes, I am arrgogant and powerhungry, so yes, I want a pip. I'm also fair and honest, and mead, kilga, and alain all worked very hard toward this also. Without Kilga trusting me and telling me he and kefit were wolves, we didn't have a win. Without alain trusting me and telling me he and blah were the seer/guardian (didn't even know blah was alderoth at the time, knew 8/9), we didn't have the game. Without mead doing all the initial work and getting 7 of us together (flux was 8, blah was 9), we didn't have the game. Even flux and demon deserve credit... neither one was aware of the situation until day 1 started because of that "alain and ld situation"... I had to tell them about the tribal victory, because without their help we only had 7 votes. Neither had to trust me, both did, flux easier than demon, but nonetheless, both trusted me after a period of time... and without them, we didn't have a win.

This was a TEAM effort... just because I'm being vocal about it, all NINE of us played a part in securing Alderoth victory. And, no matter what anyone on Sayban says, my first post, instead of nabbing Spheroid... I could have said "a Sayban is dead. All of alderoth is working together, we have 9 people, the game is over.... so, just sit back and enjoy as we win without you being able to do anything." I didn't do that, and look what happened. The game was over the second Talisman was killed.

Also...

It is possible that the same wolves would've been chosen again. But the odds are so heavily against it, that it's almost impossible on a second subsequent time. They'd have to be on the same tribes, too. I wouldn't bet on it happening, and I know you wouldn't either. The game was stacked because a majority knew who the wolves were, and they weren't rerandomized so they were secret once again. Please don't say that isn't stacked, or unfair.
No one knew who the wolves were until the wolves themselves revealed it to the humans.... and THAT is the important part of this. Chardish's reason for ending the game is that the 4 wolves were the same as before.... but NO ONE realized that until after they were told the wolves BY THE WOLVES. Even after knowing all 4 wolves, I didn't connect that Spheroid and Jenova were the same as take2... So, that argument doesn't hold water, because you imply EVERYONE knew the wolves just because they were the same. No one knew the wolves until the wolves wanted to be known... Therefore, there was no reason to end the game. Besides the fact that Hans/LD were the only other ones to know, and they were pushing for racial victory, and I was still pushing for tribal victory, so even knowing all the remaining wolves, they were STILL GOING TO LOSE.

That is the point of all this... and if you don't see the fact that I'm right, I'm sorry to say, but you are stupid.

[chardish]

There could have been a comeback, Tass, or something your infinite wisdom couldn't have forseen (like, perhaps, the fact that someone on Sayban could have outsmarted you? Gasp?)

You're declaring victory in a TWG that was 5 days away from its conclusion, at minimum, when it was halted for reasons completely independent of who was winning. This isn't like Game V where Kilga ended it because it was over. This was Game XIV, where Chardish ended it because he lied to the players.

Your arguments that it shouldn't have been halted don't change the fact that you didn't win. Going back to the sports analogy, this is like the officials declaring a baseball game to be over in the first inning, because the umpire had a hot date that night or something like that. The officials declare the game a draw. Then one team tries to claim victory because they were ahead. The players and fans are pissed.

So what do you do, if you're one of the commissioners of the league? Obviously, you fire the offending official - that's already done now that LD is in charge of TWG XIV/XV (depending on how you look at it.) But what about the win? Do you give the win to the team that was ahead and move on to the next game? Or do you say "The official was being retarded, and it won't happen again. We're going to start over again and do it right this time."

I think that my reasons for halting it were valid, I'm just saying that your argument is moot even if they weren't.

If you don't see the fact that I'm right, I'm sorry to say, but you are stupid.

[Kilgamayan]

The idea that Sayban could have still made a comeback keeps popping up.

Just out of curiosity, who were the 9 Alderoths and the 9 Saybans?

[chardish]

You had them all pinned. But that's not the point, because Alderoth's near-assured victory was not the reason the game was halted.

[Kilgamayan]

That question wasn't concerned with why the game was halted, I just wanted to shut everyone up that said the reason we don't deserve the victory was becuase Sayban had a chance of winning.

I'll address other points later.

[chardish]

I'll be the first to admit that Sayban had no chance of winning. But I think the humans did. After you killed Jenova and Spheroid, it might not have been hard for some Sayban survivors to turn the tide, saying "You know who the remaining 2 wolves are, just kill them!"

Assuming 5 Saybans were left by that point, that would have meant there were 15 left total. They would have needed to convert 3 of the Alderoth ranks to their plan in order to insta either Kilga or Kefit. The next time, assuming logically that the surviving wolf would oust a Sayban or a traitor in spite, that would be 1 Alderoth wolf + 7 people fighting for Alderoth victory vs. 7 Saybans/Alderoths fighting with Sayban to win for the humans.

If the surviving wolf made the fatal error of getting rid of an Alderoth traitor, that would mean that there would be 4 remaining faithful Alderoth humans, 1 remaining Alderoth wolf, and 7 people pushing racial victory. At this point, tribal victory for Alderoth seems far more difficult, making it far more encouragable to get rid of the remaining Alderoth wolf instead of fighting a fruitless battle against the Saybans.

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No. In order to predict the outcome, you'd have to be an outstanding prognosticator of human behavior.

[Kilgamayan]

Well, no Alderoth besides Tass and "one other" knew Kefit and I were wolves.

Tass was intending to see this through as an Alderoth victory anyway, and I doubt anyone would have tried to go against him. Besides, turning on us means we're going to kill some Alderoth in response for backstabbing us, so who would take the risk of losing a guaranteed win?

[chardish]

I would, to spite Tass. ;)

[Tasselfoot]

And you weren't on our team. Think about this chardish... who would have turned on Alderoth for human win? Of the 9... only demon/flux aren't/weren't veterans. Whorli/Mead are/were in my pocket... Alain/Blah are willing to stick to a plan, clearly Kilga/Kefit wouldn't backstab me... so 7. And no way they turn on us before the start of day 3. And, by that point, us 7 is greater than 4 remaining Sayban's + demon/flux...

But, i'm sure you'd try chardish... glad you were ending the game instead of playing in it.

Regardless, its now in Blah's hands... Chardish + Guido vs Tass + Kilga.... its up to Blah. I really do feel bad for Mead, Alain, and Kilga... I'm arguing and you all think I'm being selfish... I had nothing without their help. They deserve a win.

[chardish]

In chess, the game can get to a certain point where the other player has absolutely no possible move that can prevent him from inevitably being checkmated. Yet, the game is not over at that point. Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game. Even though victory is assured, the game isn't over. Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner. If both players suffered fatal heart attacks, the game would be considered unresolved.

The game's not over until checkmate.

P.S. Tass, Blah tells me you called him on his cell phone today to get him to side with you. Isn't that taking this just a wee bit too far?

[Kilgamayan]

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

[chardish]

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

I've already illustrated several examples in this thread of ways in which you could have lost. Unlikely ways, but ways nonetheless. Don't insult the intelligence of the reader by assuming they'll accept your ludicrous example as a barometer of the validity of my arguments.

We're not looking at what's likely, we're looking at what's possible. I've stressed over and over again that the conditions for victory in this game were not met, and your unwavering and erroneous assertion has been that having a strong lead is the same thing as satisfying the conditions for victory. Clearly, if the conditions for victory were satisfied, then I was most certainly in error for allowing the game to continue even after Talisman was wolfed, right? If you had earned victory by that point in the game, I should have just ended it with a big huge ALDEROTH WINS, and concluded the story, right? If not, why not?

But they weren't. The rules state, one tribe wins when they've completely eliminated the other tribe. You didn't. It doesn't matter what you were going to do, or even that it may have been inevitable (read above.)

You seem to have a very hard time distinguishing between the present and the predicted future.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

This is an outright falsehood. If I didn't know better, it would appear that you have resorted to base contradiction as a substitute for logical discourse.

Your assertion appears to have been made without any knowledge whatsoever of the rules of chess. By FIDE (Federation Internationale des Echecs) rules, accepted by all respectable tournaments,

1.2 The objective of each player is to place the opponent's king 'under attack' in such a way that the opponent has no legal move which would avoid the 'capture' of the king on the following move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have 'checkmated' the opponent's king and to have won the game. The opponent whose king has been checkmated has lost the game.

5.1.a The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

The only two ways victory can be achieved. I don't see anything in there about "when one player should have resigned, but didn't" or "when victory was imminent, assuming the player with the lead didn't make a mistake."

It's not over until it's over, and this TWG most certainly was not over.

[GuidoHunter]

Okay guys, this ridiculous argument has to stop.

If you haven't noticed, the ill-fated tribal game was stopped at the host's discretion and promptly replaced and restarted (for which I thank LD).

The TWG XIV pips will come from TWG XIV, not from the game that could have been.

Whether or not you agree with chardish's stopping of the game is irrelevant, since we've moved on.

TWC has nothing on which to rule, especially on a matter as insipid as pips on your banner.

Regarding credit for the efforts of the Alderoth members: Have you ever heard the phrase "A job well done is its own reward"? Give yourselves a pat on the back and realize that you did well to have a plan to win the game as of Day 1. I say this with complete sincerity, too. As a Sayban, I commend your team efforts and abilities. Alas, due to the host, who had no other council when making his decision, those efforts would not completely come to fruition and manifest themselves at the end of the game. I'm sorry this happened, but at least everyone knows what you all did.

Now, to summarize my points. The game has ended, another has started. Lets. Move. On.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kilgamayan]

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

I've already illustrated several examples in this thread of ways in which you could have lost. Unlikely ways, but ways nonetheless. Don't insult the intelligence of the reader by assuming they'll accept your ludicrous example as a barometer of the validity of my arguments.

We're not looking at what's likely, we're looking at what's possible. I've stressed over and over again that the conditions for victory in this game were not met, and your unwavering and erroneous assertion has been that having a strong lead is the same thing as satisfying the conditions for victory. Clearly, if the conditions for victory were satisfied, then I was most certainly in error for allowing the game to continue even after Talisman was wolfed, right? If you had earned victory by that point in the game, I should have just ended it with a big huge ALDEROTH WINS, and concluded the story, right? If not, why not?

You haven't provided a single valid example of how Alderoth loses. The only possible way Alderoth loses is if some Alderoth defect and go for the human win instead. By human nature they will not do this. Why? Because the Alderoth victory is guaranteed, while the human victory is not, at least not on an individual basis. With two wolves left, if Alderoth turns on its wolves, they get a revenge kill, which means one person loses even if their side wins. Who would be stupid enough to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a variable that could cause that person to lose? No one who's playing TWG, I certainly hope.

But they weren't. The rules state, one tribe wins when they've completely eliminated the other tribe. You didn't. It doesn't matter what you were going to do, or even that it may have been inevitable (read above.)

The game ending early isn't our fault. It's yours. Had you not interfered, victory was 100% imminent for common sense reasons stated above. Period. I do not see why we have to pay because you screwed up.

If you can provide me a scenario where, assuming no outside influences or consequences, it would be directly beneficial for someone to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a new variable so that victory is no longer 100% guaranteed, then not only will I admit you're right, but I'll stop playing this game forever out of shame.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

This is an outright falsehood. If I didn't know better, it would appear that you have resorted to base contradiction as a substitute for logical discourse.

Your assertion appears to have been made without any knowledge whatsoever of the rules of chess. By FIDE (Federation Internationale des Echecs) rules, accepted by all respectable tournaments,

1.2 The objective of each player is to place the opponent's king 'under attack' in such a way that the opponent has no legal move which would avoid the 'capture' of the king on the following move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have 'checkmated' the opponent's king and to have won the game. The opponent whose king has been checkmated has lost the game.

5.1.a The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

The only two ways victory can be achieved. I don't see anything in there about "when one player should have resigned, but didn't" or "when victory was imminent, assuming the player with the lead didn't make a mistake."

It's not over until it's over, and this TWG most certainly was not over.

Let's read what you wrote again, shall we?

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect

Okay, so he resigned.

5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

Re-arrange this rule to get a basic if-then statement: if a chess player resigns, then the game is stopped and his opponent is declared the winner.

The player, by your admission, has resigned. Plugging that into the if-then statement, we can logically conclude that the game is stopped and the opponent is declared the winner.

So how is the game not over?

---

NOTICE: Any posts that simply tell anyone to stop arguing without contributing anything meaningful to this discussion here on out will be considered postwhoring and will be deleted as such. There are very few ways that I will stop arguing, and users telling me to is not on that list, so your posts will have no value whatsoever.

[chardish]

The game ending early isn't our fault. It's yours. Had you not interfered, victory was 100% imminent for common sense reasons stated above. Period. I do not see why we have to pay because you screwed up.

The game was declared null and void. Not concluded. Not ended prematurely as you did in TWG V. It was simply declared that it was a colossal mistake and never should have happened to begin with.

If you can provide me a scenario where, assuming no outside influences or consequences, it would be directly beneficial for someone to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a new variable so that victory is no longer 100% guaranteed, then not only will I admit you're right, but I'll stop playing this game forever out of shame.

I cannot. However, the game was started under false pretenses. That's the issue at debate here. Not whether you would have won or not - everyone knows you were going to.

I'm just saying that since the conditions for victory were not satisfied, the game was not over.

You're arguing that the conditions for victory were satisfied. By that argument, I should have ended the game as soon as Talisman died, immediately declaring Alderoth the victor. You ignored this the last time I brought it up.

Let's read what you wrote again, shall we?

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect

Okay, so he resigned.

5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

Re-arrange this rule to get a basic if-then statement: if a chess player resigns, then the game is stopped and his opponent is declared the winner.

The player, by your admission, has resigned. Plugging that into the if-then statement, we can logically conclude that the game is stopped and the opponent is declared the winner.

Misunderstanding. The way I interpreted your post was "If the player should have resigned, the player loses the game even if he didn't resign." I apologize for misinterpreting it. Sayban didn't resign, so this whole chess argument is largely moot.

But my initial chess argument stands - the game's not over until it's over. You don't look at inevitable futures when deciding the present state of the game.

[Kilgamayan]

I figured the chess thing was a simple English misunderstanding when mulling this over while eating lunch. No biggie.

But I still don't see why the roles being selected in whatever fashion they were matters. I don't remember seeing someone saying something to counteract my Dark Matters example. Whether all the roles were random or hand-picked shouldn't matter, because it doesn't give out any information to the humans since no one knows what the host's motives are. And they may not even matter: when I saw that Tass had gotten the seer role I was >50% sure the humans would win.

I realize the game was ended early and that Alderoth didn't fulfill the exact requirements for a victory as a direct result. I simply claim that the early ending was premature in and of itself, and thus determining whether or not Alderoth deserves a victory should be based around assuming the stop never happened.

[Tasselfoot]

I tried to explain earlier that the fact that LD and Hans learning that the wolves were the same as they were in take2 had no bearing whatsoever on how they learned who the wolves were... Spheroid TOLD them who the other 3 wolves are, there was nothing inherantly flawed about that. Therefore, your reasoning for ending the game was incorrect, and based on that assumption, Alderoth should be declared the winner.

You didn't see my arguing this hard about when we re-rolled take2, even though I knew both seers/guardians and had a 5 person alliance set up before night 1 started, and Kefit was going to be seered, giving us a wolf kill on day 1.... because there WAS a flaw in the setup, the humans WERE too powerful with 2 seerings, and LD came up with a good recommendation to fix it. I understand that stopping of the game. But, in this case, my main point is the fact that there was not a decent reason for ending the game early, thereby negating a 100% guarenteed win by team Alderoth in the process. If there had been a valid reason for ending the game, neither Kilga nor I would be arguing this... the fact is, the reason for ending it was bogus.

For the last time.... Hans, LD, myself... none of us KNEW the wolves UNTIL the wolves told us who the wolves were. Even after that, I didn't pick up on the fact that they were the same 4 as before... Just because LD noticed doesn't mean anything. LD was a guardian in take2, clearly he wasn't again in take3... so clearly the non-wolf roles were re-done, only the wolves were kept the same, and there was NO WAY to know that unless the wolves specifically said so.

THAT IS WHY the game shouldn't have ended, Alderoth would have won, and there wouldn't have been an argument. And, sure... the same as i could be struck by lightning, some ridiculous situation could have happened that the humans won over Alderoth, but... the facts remain that the game would have ended on the same day, human or Alderoth victory, and our team is intelligent enough to realize that, as Kilga said, changing the plan is flat out stupid, in that it takes on unneccesary risk. No way alain or blah would take that risk, and mead/whorli were in my pocket. That is 7... Well more than needed to win the game, even if the weaker players, demon and flux, jumped ship, which I highly doubt they would. This also means that ALL OF SAYBAN would have to vote together too, and would STILL lose to the 7 Alderoth. The odds of that happened are worse than your .0033 of getting hit by lightning.

[HansSky]

...Ahem. Speaking of pips. Could I request that they be updated after this game?

[chardish]

Your pips will come as soon as Chardish's week of HOLY CRAP LOTS OF WORK comes to an end.