TWG XIV Emergency Voting

[Kilgamayan]

Trust me when I say I'm pissed as all hell that chardish completely screwed the Alderoth team by ending the game early for a reason that was completely unrelated to its tactics and would not have affected the outcome of the game one bit. This was the only reason why the game was stopped, and it's stupid that the host screwing up (and not even doing so, only thinking he did) costs NINE PEOPLE the win they had earned.

The end of this game was an absolute farce, and everyone and their mother knows Alderoth had it won, which is why chardish ending it early is irrelevant toward determining whether people should be awarded a victory or not. Random game-ending decision aside, Alderoth wins, and you know it, which is why they still deserve credit.

And don't give me your "unfair" shit. For one reason or another, I managed to draw wolf three times, a role I relish playing far more than human (no matter what type), and then all three times I get screwed out of it by circumstances 100% beyond my control. THAT is unfair, and the fact that I'm not only getting screwed out of a role I wanted (three times to boot) but also a win that I worked for is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm not going to stop working until I get some sort of reparation for it. "Internet" be damned.

EDIT: Affirming my part in below statement.

[lightdarkness]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Internet Drama Terminated.

This matter will be sorted out calmly between the people who have the authority to make those decisions. Whatever discussion deemed nessecary to share with the rest of the group, will be shown.

Love,

LD and Kilga

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Odds of getting the same 4 wolves 2 times in a row: (4/18) * (3/17) * (2/16) * (1/15) = (24/73,400) = 00.032%

This is a very good real-world example of a Monty Hall problem, which essentially proves that random probability gets tossed out the window when a decision you claim is random really isn't. It definitely applies here.

P.S.
Odds of being struck by lightning in your lifetime: 00.033% (source: National Weather Service)

[Tasselfoot]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Hate to keep dragging the dead horse, but I felt this needed to at least be pointed out.... and, I didn't get to voice my opinion in the past hours...

1. Kilga is absolutely right in everything he's said. Yes, I am arrgogant and powerhungry, so yes, I want a pip. I'm also fair and honest, and mead, kilga, and alain all worked very hard toward this also. Without Kilga trusting me and telling me he and kefit were wolves, we didn't have a win. Without alain trusting me and telling me he and blah were the seer/guardian (didn't even know blah was alderoth at the time, knew 8/9), we didn't have the game. Without mead doing all the initial work and getting 7 of us together (flux was 8, blah was 9), we didn't have the game. Even flux and demon deserve credit... neither one was aware of the situation until day 1 started because of that "alain and ld situation"... I had to tell them about the tribal victory, because without their help we only had 7 votes. Neither had to trust me, both did, flux easier than demon, but nonetheless, both trusted me after a period of time... and without them, we didn't have a win.

This was a TEAM effort... just because I'm being vocal about it, all NINE of us played a part in securing Alderoth victory. And, no matter what anyone on Sayban says, my first post, instead of nabbing Spheroid... I could have said "a Sayban is dead. All of alderoth is working together, we have 9 people, the game is over.... so, just sit back and enjoy as we win without you being able to do anything." I didn't do that, and look what happened. The game was over the second Talisman was killed.

Also...

It is possible that the same wolves would've been chosen again. But the odds are so heavily against it, that it's almost impossible on a second subsequent time. They'd have to be on the same tribes, too. I wouldn't bet on it happening, and I know you wouldn't either. The game was stacked because a majority knew who the wolves were, and they weren't rerandomized so they were secret once again. Please don't say that isn't stacked, or unfair.

No one knew who the wolves were until the wolves themselves revealed it to the humans.... and THAT is the important part of this. Chardish's reason for ending the game is that the 4 wolves were the same as before.... but NO ONE realized that until after they were told the wolves BY THE WOLVES. Even after knowing all 4 wolves, I didn't connect that Spheroid and Jenova were the same as take2... So, that argument doesn't hold water, because you imply EVERYONE knew the wolves just because they were the same. No one knew the wolves until the wolves wanted to be known... Therefore, there was no reason to end the game. Besides the fact that Hans/LD were the only other ones to know, and they were pushing for racial victory, and I was still pushing for tribal victory, so even knowing all the remaining wolves, they were STILL GOING TO LOSE.

That is the point of all this... and if you don't see the fact that I'm right, I'm sorry to say, but you are stupid.

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

There could have been a comeback, Tass, or something your infinite wisdom couldn't have forseen (like, perhaps, the fact that someone on Sayban could have outsmarted you? Gasp?)

You're declaring victory in a TWG that was 5 days away from its conclusion, at minimum, when it was halted for reasons completely independent of who was winning. This isn't like Game V where Kilga ended it because it was over. This was Game XIV, where Chardish ended it because he lied to the players.

Your arguments that it shouldn't have been halted don't change the fact that you didn't win. Going back to the sports analogy, this is like the officials declaring a baseball game to be over in the first inning, because the umpire had a hot date that night or something like that. The officials declare the game a draw. Then one team tries to claim victory because they were ahead. The players and fans are pissed.

So what do you do, if you're one of the commissioners of the league? Obviously, you fire the offending official - that's already done now that LD is in charge of TWG XIV/XV (depending on how you look at it.) But what about the win? Do you give the win to the team that was ahead and move on to the next game? Or do you say "The official was being retarded, and it won't happen again. We're going to start over again and do it right this time."

I think that my reasons for halting it were valid, I'm just saying that your argument is moot even if they weren't.

If you don't see the fact that I'm right, I'm sorry to say, but you are stupid.

[Kilgamayan]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

The idea that Sayban could have still made a comeback keeps popping up.

Just out of curiosity, who were the 9 Alderoths and the 9 Saybans?

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

You had them all pinned. But that's not the point, because Alderoth's near-assured victory was not the reason the game was halted.

[Kilgamayan]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

That question wasn't concerned with why the game was halted, I just wanted to shut everyone up that said the reason we don't deserve the victory was becuase Sayban had a chance of winning.

I'll address other points later.

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

I'll be the first to admit that Sayban had no chance of winning. But I think the humans did. After you killed Jenova and Spheroid, it might not have been hard for some Sayban survivors to turn the tide, saying "You know who the remaining 2 wolves are, just kill them!"

Assuming 5 Saybans were left by that point, that would have meant there were 15 left total. They would have needed to convert 3 of the Alderoth ranks to their plan in order to insta either Kilga or Kefit. The next time, assuming logically that the surviving wolf would oust a Sayban or a traitor in spite, that would be 1 Alderoth wolf + 7 people fighting for Alderoth victory vs. 7 Saybans/Alderoths fighting with Sayban to win for the humans.

If the surviving wolf made the fatal error of getting rid of an Alderoth traitor, that would mean that there would be 4 remaining faithful Alderoth humans, 1 remaining Alderoth wolf, and 7 people pushing racial victory. At this point, tribal victory for Alderoth seems far more difficult, making it far more encouragable to get rid of the remaining Alderoth wolf instead of fighting a fruitless battle against the Saybans.

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No. In order to predict the outcome, you'd have to be an outstanding prognosticator of human behavior.

[Kilgamayan]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Well, no Alderoth besides Tass and "one other" knew Kefit and I were wolves.

Tass was intending to see this through as an Alderoth victory anyway, and I doubt anyone would have tried to go against him. Besides, turning on us means we're going to kill some Alderoth in response for backstabbing us, so who would take the risk of losing a guaranteed win?

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

I would, to spite Tass.

[Tasselfoot]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

And you weren't on our team. Think about this chardish... who would have turned on Alderoth for human win? Of the 9... only demon/flux aren't/weren't veterans. Whorli/Mead are/were in my pocket... Alain/Blah are willing to stick to a plan, clearly Kilga/Kefit wouldn't backstab me... so 7. And no way they turn on us before the start of day 3. And, by that point, us 7 is greater than 4 remaining Sayban's + demon/flux...

But, i'm sure you'd try chardish... glad you were ending the game instead of playing in it.

Regardless, its now in Blah's hands... Chardish + Guido vs Tass + Kilga.... its up to Blah. I really do feel bad for Mead, Alain, and Kilga... I'm arguing and you all think I'm being selfish... I had nothing without their help. They deserve a win.

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

In chess, the game can get to a certain point where the other player has absolutely no possible move that can prevent him from inevitably being checkmated. Yet, the game is not over at that point. Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game. Even though victory is assured, the game isn't over. Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner. If both players suffered fatal heart attacks, the game would be considered unresolved.

The game's not over until checkmate.

P.S. Tass, Blah tells me you called him on his cell phone today to get him to side with you. Isn't that taking this just a wee bit too far?

[Kilgamayan]

Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

[User6773]

Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

I've already illustrated several examples in this thread of ways in which you could have lost. Unlikely ways, but ways nonetheless. Don't insult the intelligence of the reader by assuming they'll accept your ludicrous example as a barometer of the validity of my arguments.

We're not looking at what's likely, we're looking at what's possible. I've stressed over and over again that the conditions for victory in this game were not met, and your unwavering and erroneous assertion has been that having a strong lead is the same thing as satisfying the conditions for victory. Clearly, if the conditions for victory were satisfied, then I was most certainly in error for allowing the game to continue even after Talisman was wolfed, right? If you had earned victory by that point in the game, I should have just ended it with a big huge ALDEROTH WINS, and concluded the story, right? If not, why not?

But they weren't. The rules state, one tribe wins when they've completely eliminated the other tribe. You didn't. It doesn't matter what you were going to do, or even that it may have been inevitable (read above.)

You seem to have a very hard time distinguishing between the present and the predicted future.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

This is an outright falsehood. If I didn't know better, it would appear that you have resorted to base contradiction as a substitute for logical discourse.

Your assertion appears to have been made without any knowledge whatsoever of the rules of chess. By FIDE (Federation Internationale des Echecs) rules, accepted by all respectable tournaments,

1.2 The objective of each player is to place the opponent's king 'under attack' in such a way that the opponent has no legal move which would avoid the 'capture' of the king on the following move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have 'checkmated' the opponent's king and to have won the game. The opponent whose king has been checkmated has lost the game.

5.1.a The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

The only two ways victory can be achieved. I don't see anything in there about "when one player should have resigned, but didn't" or "when victory was imminent, assuming the player with the lead didn't make a mistake."

It's not over until it's over, and this TWG most certainly was not over.