TWG XIV Emergency Voting

[GuidoHunter]

Okay guys, this ridiculous argument has to stop.

If you haven't noticed, the ill-fated tribal game was stopped at the host's discretion and promptly replaced and restarted (for which I thank LD).

The TWG XIV pips will come from TWG XIV, not from the game that could have been.

Whether or not you agree with chardish's stopping of the game is irrelevant, since we've moved on.

TWC has nothing on which to rule, especially on a matter as insipid as pips on your banner.

Regarding credit for the efforts of the Alderoth members: Have you ever heard the phrase "A job well done is its own reward"? Give yourselves a pat on the back and realize that you did well to have a plan to win the game as of Day 1. I say this with complete sincerity, too. As a Sayban, I commend your team efforts and abilities. Alas, due to the host, who had no other council when making his decision, those efforts would not completely come to fruition and manifest themselves at the end of the game. I'm sorry this happened, but at least everyone knows what you all did.

Now, to summarize my points. The game has ended, another has started. Lets. Move. On.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kilgamayan]

Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Why? The player whose victory seems inevitable can make a blunder that costs him the game.

Excuse me? What blunder was there to make? "oh shit seven of us just accidentally voted for alain"? Don't insult our intelligence, thanks.

I've already illustrated several examples in this thread of ways in which you could have lost. Unlikely ways, but ways nonetheless. Don't insult the intelligence of the reader by assuming they'll accept your ludicrous example as a barometer of the validity of my arguments.

We're not looking at what's likely, we're looking at what's possible. I've stressed over and over again that the conditions for victory in this game were not met, and your unwavering and erroneous assertion has been that having a strong lead is the same thing as satisfying the conditions for victory. Clearly, if the conditions for victory were satisfied, then I was most certainly in error for allowing the game to continue even after Talisman was wolfed, right? If you had earned victory by that point in the game, I should have just ended it with a big huge ALDEROTH WINS, and concluded the story, right? If not, why not?

You haven't provided a single valid example of how Alderoth loses. The only possible way Alderoth loses is if some Alderoth defect and go for the human win instead. By human nature they will not do this. Why? Because the Alderoth victory is guaranteed, while the human victory is not, at least not on an individual basis. With two wolves left, if Alderoth turns on its wolves, they get a revenge kill, which means one person loses even if their side wins. Who would be stupid enough to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a variable that could cause that person to lose? No one who's playing TWG, I certainly hope.

But they weren't. The rules state, one tribe wins when they've completely eliminated the other tribe. You didn't. It doesn't matter what you were going to do, or even that it may have been inevitable (read above.)

The game ending early isn't our fault. It's yours. Had you not interfered, victory was 100% imminent for common sense reasons stated above. Period. I do not see why we have to pay because you screwed up.

If you can provide me a scenario where, assuming no outside influences or consequences, it would be directly beneficial for someone to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a new variable so that victory is no longer 100% guaranteed, then not only will I admit you're right, but I'll stop playing this game forever out of shame.

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect, the game is not over at that point. The game has no winner.

Wrong. By the rules of chess, the game is over and the person who didn't resign is declared the winner. Nice try, though.

This is an outright falsehood. If I didn't know better, it would appear that you have resorted to base contradiction as a substitute for logical discourse.

Your assertion appears to have been made without any knowledge whatsoever of the rules of chess. By FIDE (Federation Internationale des Echecs) rules, accepted by all respectable tournaments,

1.2 The objective of each player is to place the opponent's king 'under attack' in such a way that the opponent has no legal move which would avoid the 'capture' of the king on the following move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have 'checkmated' the opponent's king and to have won the game. The opponent whose king has been checkmated has lost the game.

5.1.a The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

The only two ways victory can be achieved. I don't see anything in there about "when one player should have resigned, but didn't" or "when victory was imminent, assuming the player with the lead didn't make a mistake."

It's not over until it's over, and this TWG most certainly was not over.

Let's read what you wrote again, shall we?

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect

Okay, so he resigned.

5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

Re-arrange this rule to get a basic if-then statement: if a chess player resigns, then the game is stopped and his opponent is declared the winner.

The player, by your admission, has resigned. Plugging that into the if-then statement, we can logically conclude that the game is stopped and the opponent is declared the winner.

So how is the game not over?

---

NOTICE: Any posts that simply tell anyone to stop arguing without contributing anything meaningful to this discussion here on out will be considered postwhoring and will be deleted as such. There are very few ways that I will stop arguing, and users telling me to is not on that list, so your posts will have no value whatsoever.

[User6773]

Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

The game ending early isn't our fault. It's yours. Had you not interfered, victory was 100% imminent for common sense reasons stated above. Period. I do not see why we have to pay because you screwed up.

The game was declared null and void. Not concluded. Not ended prematurely as you did in TWG V. It was simply declared that it was a colossal mistake and never should have happened to begin with.

If you can provide me a scenario where, assuming no outside influences or consequences, it would be directly beneficial for someone to take a 100% guaranteed victory and introduce a new variable so that victory is no longer 100% guaranteed, then not only will I admit you're right, but I'll stop playing this game forever out of shame.

I cannot. However, the game was started under false pretenses. That's the issue at debate here. Not whether you would have won or not - everyone knows you were going to.

I'm just saying that since the conditions for victory were not satisfied, the game was not over.

You're arguing that the conditions for victory were satisfied. By that argument, I should have ended the game as soon as Talisman died, immediately declaring Alderoth the victor. You ignored this the last time I brought it up.

Let's read what you wrote again, shall we?

Though one side may resign in a symbolic gesture of foresightedness and respect

Okay, so he resigned.

5.1.b The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

Re-arrange this rule to get a basic if-then statement: if a chess player resigns, then the game is stopped and his opponent is declared the winner.

The player, by your admission, has resigned. Plugging that into the if-then statement, we can logically conclude that the game is stopped and the opponent is declared the winner.

Misunderstanding. The way I interpreted your post was "If the player should have resigned, the player loses the game even if he didn't resign." I apologize for misinterpreting it. Sayban didn't resign, so this whole chess argument is largely moot.

But my initial chess argument stands - the game's not over until it's over. You don't look at inevitable futures when deciding the present state of the game.

[Kilgamayan]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

I figured the chess thing was a simple English misunderstanding when mulling this over while eating lunch. No biggie.

But I still don't see why the roles being selected in whatever fashion they were matters. I don't remember seeing someone saying something to counteract my Dark Matters example. Whether all the roles were random or hand-picked shouldn't matter, because it doesn't give out any information to the humans since no one knows what the host's motives are. And they may not even matter: when I saw that Tass had gotten the seer role I was >50% sure the humans would win.

I realize the game was ended early and that Alderoth didn't fulfill the exact requirements for a victory as a direct result. I simply claim that the early ending was premature in and of itself, and thus determining whether or not Alderoth deserves a victory should be based around assuming the stop never happened.

[Tasselfoot]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

I tried to explain earlier that the fact that LD and Hans learning that the wolves were the same as they were in take2 had no bearing whatsoever on how they learned who the wolves were... Spheroid TOLD them who the other 3 wolves are, there was nothing inherantly flawed about that. Therefore, your reasoning for ending the game was incorrect, and based on that assumption, Alderoth should be declared the winner.

You didn't see my arguing this hard about when we re-rolled take2, even though I knew both seers/guardians and had a 5 person alliance set up before night 1 started, and Kefit was going to be seered, giving us a wolf kill on day 1.... because there WAS a flaw in the setup, the humans WERE too powerful with 2 seerings, and LD came up with a good recommendation to fix it. I understand that stopping of the game. But, in this case, my main point is the fact that there was not a decent reason for ending the game early, thereby negating a 100% guarenteed win by team Alderoth in the process. If there had been a valid reason for ending the game, neither Kilga nor I would be arguing this... the fact is, the reason for ending it was bogus.

For the last time.... Hans, LD, myself... none of us KNEW the wolves UNTIL the wolves told us who the wolves were. Even after that, I didn't pick up on the fact that they were the same 4 as before... Just because LD noticed doesn't mean anything. LD was a guardian in take2, clearly he wasn't again in take3... so clearly the non-wolf roles were re-done, only the wolves were kept the same, and there was NO WAY to know that unless the wolves specifically said so.

THAT IS WHY the game shouldn't have ended, Alderoth would have won, and there wouldn't have been an argument. And, sure... the same as i could be struck by lightning, some ridiculous situation could have happened that the humans won over Alderoth, but... the facts remain that the game would have ended on the same day, human or Alderoth victory, and our team is intelligent enough to realize that, as Kilga said, changing the plan is flat out stupid, in that it takes on unneccesary risk. No way alain or blah would take that risk, and mead/whorli were in my pocket. That is 7... Well more than needed to win the game, even if the weaker players, demon and flux, jumped ship, which I highly doubt they would. This also means that ALL OF SAYBAN would have to vote together too, and would STILL lose to the 7 Alderoth. The odds of that happened are worse than your .0033 of getting hit by lightning.

[HansSky]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

...Ahem. Speaking of pips. Could I request that they be updated after this game?

[User6773]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: TWG XIV Emergency Voting

Your pips will come as soon as Chardish's week of HOLY CRAP LOTS OF WORK comes to an end.