Flight of the Bumblebee [11 or 12]

[Hakulyte]

Reasons:

- Background
- Blue notes
- High amount of long trills + transitions
- Very unfriendly to spread players
- One very long one hand trill at moderate speed
- Awkward Running man after getting stamina drained from trills
- Decent amount of alts/hacked scores boosting top 200 and making ranks less relevant
- File is extremely over played since 2003 and only 54 AAAs

I can't really add much without being subjective so, I'll stop here.

[V-Ormix]

11 and always will be an 11

Edit: the long one hand trill sucks, but honestly if you index it or use one of the tricks I did its just no were near a 12 even then. the file doesn't even break 900 arrows lmao

[rushyrulz]

11 cuz no speed, consistencymanias all that's required.

[dragonmegaXX]

It's not very hard at all, Constant 16ths the entire time.

[Mau5]

I say 11, FFR just can't trill
:P

[bballa48]

It's not very hard at all, Constant 16ths the entire time.

So you have a SDG on Holy Orders but over 80 goods on FOTBB, yet is isn't that hard? Edit: That came out harsh, not trying to be a jerk, but just saying :) )

I don't know, I feel like all of you are just spewing stuff without really thinking about that file. Yeah it is just trills all over, but they are fast, stamina draining, and there is a stupid background.

Here's a question I like to ask myself before bumping a song. "Will this being bumped up to a 12 lead to people thinking 'Oh, here's my chance at my first 12 AAA/SDG etc.?'" Please show me someone who would answer yes to that question.

I have no problem at all with this being a low 12, yet I realize it won't be changed since it has always been an 11. So in that sense, who cares.


Edit: Plays FOTBB, AAAs first try after rant about how it could be a 12. Face palm.

[dragonmegaXX]

So you have a SDG on Holy Orders but over 80 goods on FOTBB, yet is isn't that hard?

I don't know, I feel like all of you are just spewing stuff without really thinking about that file. Yeah it is just trills all over, but they are fast, stamina draining, and there is a stupid background.

Here's a question I like to ask myself before bumping a song. "Will this being bumped up to a 12 lead to people thinking 'Oh, here's my chance at my first 12 AAA/SDG etc.?'" Please show me someone who would answer yes to that question.

I have no problem at all with this being a low 12, yet I realize it won't be changed since it has always been an 11. So in that sense, who cares.

Thats because I love playing holy orders, and have practiced it a bunch, and I never play FOTBB more than once in a row because I overall hate it

[ichliebekase]

Given the reasons stated in the OP, it says 12, especially with the fact that it only has 54 AAAs in 9 years. I could see it as a 12, but I also see why it's an 11. It's easy for index players, but difficult for spread players. Not much else to it other than what was already said.

[EzExZeRo7497]

I can see it both ways really, the density isn't high enough to be 12 but the patterns, BG and blue note syndrome... Can't decide. High 11 at least.

[xXAll-ProXx]

Definitely one of the hardest FMO`s. I have to say FN, Kestarko M, and Reality are far easier than FoTBB.

I would agree with it being a 12.

[Herogashix]

11 and always will be 11. I don't even see how 12 is thinkable.

[Riotpolice]

11. Pretty much what everyone else is saying. The background isn't as bad as Revolutionary Etude, which makes it easier to see the arrows. Even so, its a pretty damn hard FGO at that.

[Mau5]

Disagree on FN, Kestarko, and Reality being harder

If you're saying it's difficult because of the background, P4U V2 might as well be a guru as well.

Blue Note syndrome isn't bad, the whole song is just 16th note streams.

Basically just comes down to whether or not you are good at trill patterns and very basic staircase patterns

Whereas FN, Kestarko, and Reality, you got bursts, tedious jumpgluts, pretty much everything, as well as being consistent in variety
And those are considered some of the easiest 12s

[icontrolyourworld]

If you're saying it's difficult because of the background, P4U V2 might as well be a guru as well.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing both these files as 12's haha

[reuben_tate]

Think about it this way. It's been out for over 9 years and it's on the Most Popular Levels on the daily stats page almost every ****ing day yet it still only has 54 AAA's. The file is simple, but the amount of raw speed needed, stamina, and trilling ability needed is ridiculous if one even wants to remotely decent on the file. And top if off with the terrible background that makes the notes hard to see trololol. I'll vote 12, but I wouldn't be upset if this is left as a high 11.

[qqwref]

It's a 12, but one which can be BS'd down to mid 11 level if you know index. I personally vote to move it up.

[DanMeister1234]

I understand why it's an 11 but I could see it being a 12 aswell. All the factors stated make this file awkward as hell and I hate it! I'm nowhere near FC'ing and I don't think I ever will be lol! :P

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

This chart is a 12.

You people raving how easy this chart is obviously don't play it that often. This chart with the stats given has to be become a 12 because it's an 11 with the patterns alone. Add BNS and background AND lack of sync on top of it and you have an honest to hell 12.

Interesting fact though: Scythe of 13 has even less aaas than FOTBB, FN and The Adventures of Lolo and still remains an 11. Not saying it's a 12, just stating something.

Also Mau, Party For u V2 with background factored should be a 12. It's as if you're playing a 10 without being able to ever see the notes and rely on complete memorization of a chart you spent 4 years learning to read. You forget that the BNS on blue background plus the flashing plus the lack of sync and even the patterns make it a 12 despite the easy nature of the chart without the background. Backgrounds wreck songs on this game. Even the newest songs still don't have properly done backgrounds.

If you wanna say these backgrounds don't add difficulty then why in the world would be so strict on their use? The idea that party 4 u is considered easy by some people is ****ing stupid.

[One Winged Angel]

Gonna pull a stavie here and just say that this was my second FMO AAA hehu~

Nah but seriously, don't really see how this can be an FGO. The one handed trill is really the only tough part. Background is gay as piss but the file's mad short so those two factors kinda offset each other, herp derp.

Fine where it is imo but the difficulty system is getting revamped anyways so lol

[reuben_tate]

which can be BS'd down to mid 11 level if you know index
Most spread players are already too accustomed to be able to do well on an alternative playing style such as index or one-handed play. There's also the fact that most index-only players aren't skilled enough to be handling files of that difficulty. So in reality, there isn't much need to worry about people "watering it down" to a mid-11. And even for the people that do cheat it with a dense-spread/index setup, it still takes much skill to be able to analyze the file and to use an impressive playstyle-switching technique.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

You guys need to remember the difficulty system pertains to the majority of the users (spread) because the spread players are so dominant.

You can't really factor how indexers see this chart. Even on index this chart is still hard as shit.

[I like it]

dont really see how this is an fgo tbh, id say keep it an fmo, its not fgo material

[rushyrulz]

At least it's not a framer mess.
lol jk, it's a disaster

[TC_Halogen]

FMO, not even close to FGO in my eyes - one huge 16th run the whole way through with a moderately-long left handed trill

yeah, it's legacy and yes, it's offsync, but nothing within the chart's physical structure merits a FGO

[AlexDest]

uh... lol

Reasons:

- Background

All it takes is focus and learning the chart, the background has nothing to with the difficulty or notes themselves.

Reasons:

- Blue notes

This qualifies as an FGO how?

Reasons:

- Very unfriendly to spread players

Then play index!

Reasons:

- High amount of long trills + transitions
- One very long one hand trill at moderate speed
- Awkward Running man after getting stamina drained from trills

These patterns shouldn't be difficult to hit if you just learn every part of the chart.

These "reasons" sound more like complaints to me. Should stay as an 11.

[Hakulyte]

Considering this file main difficulty is related to raw trilling speed/consistency and not weird patterns, I can see why top players wouldn't understand where the hell I'm coming from with this thread. .-.

[8 Hour Whore]

Just because you're godly at the game does not mean you're right about the difficulty rating...
Lets see... Caprice was just as hard back then as it is now and oh it got bumped down... Still a ****ing 12 in difficulty... FOTBB is harder then Caprice by a long shot..

I personally think those who complain about the ratings of something being "too easy for a 12" when it comes to songs such as this and Caprice.. Need to chill out.. Add an extra category or something but the song isn't going to get any easier by lowering or any harder by making the lvl higher... Just saying..

[reuben_tate]

If the song is so easy, then why do the statistics say otherwise? First of all, you already have the statistics in the OP. Also, I just so happened to look at the levelranks of various D5 players to see their scores on FotBB. I saw one score out of a dozen that was an sdg or better, with the rest averaging somewhere around 20 goods. Considering that D5 players can sdg a good handful of FGO's, it seems fishy that many of them are still stuck with over 20 goods on an FMO.

EDIT:
Considering this file main difficulty is related to raw trilling speed/consistency and not weird patterns, I can see why top players wouldn't understand where the hell I'm coming from with this thread. .-.
THANK YOU. I was going to say this but couldn't find words for it. Top-tier players have a more developed sense of speed, and because of this, I think it's hard for them to judge the difficulty of files that are based on sheer speed, because to them easy patterns are easy even if they are fast as ****. Sorry, for sounding like an anti-elitist douche right now, but every time I see a difficulty thread, I always see this divide between D1-4 and D5-6 with D5-6 saying the file isn't even that hard.

EDITV2: Yes, I've probably ****ing edited this a million times already. I have more to say, but I don't want to double post.

[DossarLX ODI]

All it takes is focus and learning the chart, the background has nothing to with the difficulty or notes themselves.

I wouldn't have an AAA on Revolutionary Etude right now if I didn't have the Velocity noteskin.

This qualifies as an FGO how?

This I can agree somewhat, but it can make some 8th pauses more awkward (because while this file is long sections of 16ths, there are some 8th pauses in between).

Then play index!

No comment.

These patterns shouldn't be difficult to hit if you just learn every part of the chart.

More like you need to be aware there are some 8th gaps in between the big 16th sections, and saying "just learn every part of the chart" is a really bad argument. That would be like me saying DP's ending trill isn't difficult to hit "if you just learn it".

If you use another noteskin for this file such as Velocity's noteskin, the background becomes less of a problem. Personally I think using these provided noteskins is a much better approach than blindly trying to "memorize" this file, because playing with the Velocity noteskin makes almost every BG file more tolerable. If one decides not to use what's given to them in the engine, then they're making the chart worse for themselves.

Granted this file does have a lot of awkward transitions too, it doesn't have a consistent 16th scheme to it. I'd find trills 10 notes long or something and then other trills being broken up into weird runningmen sections. It certainly does take a lot of concentration to read past these and physically do them, but it's better than some fast awkward bursts like in Flesvelka.

Voting high 11 on the 1-14 scale, but the 1-20 scale would probably make this fit better with the "low FGO" difficulty when it comes out.

[AlexDest]

The problem is that there's a handful of people that are playing spread. People rule out the other styles of play--preferably index or three-fingered--which make FOTBB much more easier than playing on spread. Yes, the one-handed trills are brutal but we can't just base the difficulty for only spread players now. Everyone is just too undetermined to even approach this stepfile with another style of play.

I'm not intending to come out as an elitist, neither am I saying, "you guys are bad this file isn't an FGO." I'm saying is that we shouldn't be ruling out any of the other styles of play which make FOTBB more tolerable than just playing spread.

[leonid]

FMO

[ichliebekase]

FOTBB is harder then Caprice by a long shot..

Cool, I'm not the only one who thinks this~

I can get sub 50 goods on Caprice (including misses and other junk) but I can't get less than 150 goods on FotBB and still haven't FC'd this either, even when intense mashing.

[jimerax]

statistically maybe, but calling this a 12 is the similar discussion with calling sssg 9.

bpm/tps/pattern wise, don't see suitable reasons for 12.

[8 Hour Whore]

statistically maybe, but calling this a 12 is the similar discussion with calling sssg 9.

bpm/tps/pattern wise, don't see suitable reasons for 12.

Then make more difficulties... Too stupid to say something like well Rottel, Toxiferous, and FOTBB are all the same skill level.. When clearly they aren't..
Just saying

[Hakulyte]

Out of curiosity, why SSSG is not a [6,7,8,9] ?

I think it's relevant to thread because FOTBB is the same story on a higher difficulty.

[iironiic]

FMO. The background and BNS only demands concentration. The hardest part of the file is the one-handed trill which seems to be everyone's weakness these days haha. This pattern itself isn't enough to bump it up to a FGO. Club and AIM Anthem are also unfriendly to spread players.

If you take out the one handed trills, the file plays itself as a low-mid FMO (assuming that Of course is a mid-FMO). All it requires is speed and concentration. If you compare FOTBB to any low FGO, you will observe a drastic difference in patterns.

EDIT: My argument still stands for itself if we are talking about SSSG. Offsyncness demands concentration as well.

[TC_Halogen]

first off, the streams in this song are no faster than any typical VC/FMO. Purple has extended 230 BPM 16th streams and I don't see anyone running for the hills and saying that it should be more difficult, and I'm 100% sure this song's streams are slower than that. The background is irrelevant compared to songs like P4U, because the arrows are visible the entire time - if you can't read it, lower your speed mod slightly. If you have issues with the trilling, switch to a more favorable setup so that the trills are doable. There's a lot of determining factors that make this song harder than it really is, one of the biggest factors being the off-sync nature of the song, and yes, it adds a lot of artificial difficulty. However, if you can sit here and tell me that this chart would be any higher than a 10 with no BG/all colored arrows and justify a TWO DIFFICULTY JUMP in between that, you let me know. A background/legacy style chart does not add two points to the initial chart's rating, and if you think otherwise, you're quite foolish.

EDIT:

FMO

EDIT2: this is going to sound elitist, but I don't care -- if you can't score relatively well on this file, you really hold no merit towards the difficulty change, I feel this way with any file in game -- if you're barely able to FC the song, you shouldn't be trying to get the rating changed unless it is ridiculously obvious.

think about other occupations - you're not going to tell a fine-dining chef that their food is incorrectly cooked when you don't know how to even cook a piece of chicken

[TheSaxRunner05]

Certainly an FMO, for reasons already posted.

[Zakvvv666]

I would kind of have to lean towards FMO, seeing as the patterns aren't dense, just hard as shit to get good PA on.

[DossarLX ODI]

this is going to sound elitist, but I don't care -- if you can't score relatively well on this file, you really hold no merit towards the difficulty change, I feel this way with any file in game -- if you're barely able to FC the song, you shouldn't be trying to get the rating changed unless it is ridiculously obvious.

The speed and consistency required along with getting past random patterns is part of the difficulty. Difficulty shouldn't only be defined for people who have the speed to hit the file.

Another file that has long one handed trills and requires a lot of consistency/concentration is Blooddrunk [Heavy] and that isn't a 12, despite how it also has some awkward 8th pauses in between. Sure, it's a little over 20 BPM slower, but it certainly isn't easy to get through.

Taking out the background, the file would still be something like mid FMO -- using Velocity's noteskin basically makes the file like it would be without the annoying background, so if the background is giving you serious issues, I suggest using iironiic's method for the legacy engine or using different noteskins on Velocity's engine.

I would kind of have to lean towards FMO, seeing as the patterns aren't dense, just hard as shit to get good PA on.

Pattern choice matters. 120 bpm 8th quads would be "more dense" than 200 bpm 16th stream.

[Mau5]

If this makes it to a difficulty 12, Caprice should too imho.

[Zyphoror]

11. The trills and runningmen are a pain, but they're not fast enough to be FGO material.

[iironiic]

Taking out the background, the file would still be something like mid FMO -- using Velocity's noteskin basically makes the file like it would be without the annoying background, so if the background is giving you serious issues, I suggest using iironiic's method for the legacy engine or using different noteskins on Velocity's engine.
.

By this, he is suggesting this: Tilting the laptop screen back, lowering the speed mod, and reading the notes at an angle makes it easier to score well on the file. Try that.

[rushyrulz]

calling this a 12 is the similar discussion with calling sssg 9.

At least a 7..

[reuben_tate]

The speed and consistency required along with getting past random patterns is part of the difficulty. Difficulty shouldn't only be defined for people who have the speed to hit the file.

Thank you for re-iterating my point. :3

Anyways, I think that limiting who should be able to judge difficulties to people that can only do well on the file is just plain silly. Remember that speed is something that's gained as a player progresses, even the simplest of patterns can turn into a near-mash fest if the player doesn't have the speed to hit the file. I personally think that if a player ultimately ends up mashing a difficulty X song, then they probably can't differentiate between difficulties that are difficulty X and higher. For example, to most D1 players, they would probably view fmo's and fgo's and just "hard stuff" that they would end up mashing most of the time and they probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between them. Also, the contrast to this is also true, higher-level players tend to have a hard time trying to differentiate lower-difficulties, like I personally have a hard time distinguishing between a 2 or a 3 or a 4, etc; basically difficulties I can sightread AAA. I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore, and I don't see this thread going anywhere either, it seems the opinions are heavily split. :/

[DossarLX ODI]

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/FFR/fotbbnoteskin.png

Noteskin comparisons. When you compare the original to the other two, the original is a total eyesore.

I should also add that the original noteskin has transparency (as you can see if you look in the picture). Even though it may not look that bad in this picture, during gameplay the transparency makes the arrows blend more into the background.

[who_cares973]

files easy learn to trill and read

[Guest15937]

Just to throw this fact out, in terms of maximum NPS, FotBB is the slowest FMO at 14.

[00Razor00]

79 (L) Flight of the Bumblebee (862 Notes / BPM 398)

so much crying because people apparently can't trill/stream at nearly 400bpm.

i see.

anywho, if the patterns were a bit more aids-y, then it would qualify as a 12.... but they're not. simple broken runs, a couple of trills and runningmen.

[reuben_tate]

Just to throw this fact out, in terms of maximum NPS, FotBB is the slowest FMO at 14.
Also consider the fact that the entire file is basically at that nps that entire time. And pattern choice plays a big part. Sure 1234 rolls aren't too bad at that speed since you only have to hit each key 3.5 times every second, but when you are doing a one-handed trill, you are essentially hitting each key 7 times every second, and it's hard to be able to be both fast and consistent like that on the long one-handed trill. Also, in the case of runningmen, each runningmen consist of an anchor note, which is also hit at 7 times every second since half of the arrows in a runningmen are comprised of said anchor note. Also, when it comes to jumps/hands/quads, it can create a false sense of density when it comes to the statistical data, since 200 bpm stream is just as "dense" as 50 bpm quad jacks. Also, consider the fact that max nps =/= average nps, many FMO's seem to have a false inflated difficulty statistically because of short but fast bursts that shoot up the max nps just for one section of the file.

[who_cares973]

its 14 note per second on all four fingers. its not like its 14 notes per second on each finger lol.

[MrPopadopalis25]

think about other occupations - you're not going to tell a fine-dining chef that their food is incorrectly cooked when you don't know how to even cook a piece of chicken

what are you even talking about

it's pretty easy to tell if a piece of chicken is incorrectly cooked y0

[V-Ormix]

what are you even talking about

it's pretty easy to tell if a piece of chicken is incorrectly cooked y0

lmfaooo

[reuben_tate]

Well, if that chicken is raw/extremely undercooked, even if I didn't know how to cook chicken, I'd send that **** back.

EDIT:
its 14 note per second on all four fingers. its not like its 14 notes per second on each finger lol.

lol, I know that. I'm just saying the amount of work required by each finger is doubled when going from simple stream to trills at the same nps.

[TC_Halogen]

what are you even talking about

it's pretty easy to tell if a piece of chicken is incorrectly cooked y0

yes but you'd be telling a michelin-star restaurant owner that has been in the industry for years about how they're wrong when you don't know a lick about anything

context sir, context

[DossarLX ODI]

think about other occupations - you're not going to tell a fine-dining chef that their food is incorrectly cooked when you don't know how to even cook a piece of chicken

By this logic, I'd have to say that you don't really know how hard this file is for the rest of the community. You aren't going to tell a vast majority of the community that they're incorrect for saying a file is hard and that it's easy for you when you don't even know how much trouble they're having. If anything, they have the best idea on that.

"Think about other occupations" -- think about the rest of the players.

[qqwref]

yes but you'd be telling a michelin-star restaurant owner that has been in the industry for years about how they're wrong when you don't know a lick about anything
Oh, OK. So players who aren't top tier "don't know a lick about anything" compared to players who have already AAA'd a file as well as files that are much harder. Thanks for insulting everyone, we really appreciate it.

Basically, the reason I think top players should get out of these discussions is that the difficulty straight up doesn't matter to them. If you have every single high FMO and low FGO AAA'd, it really doesn't matter which one a file is, because you'll just AAA it anyway. But for people who have trouble with FMOs and even *more* trouble with FGOs, having a file they find really difficult ranked too low actually feels wrong. It's as simple as that. Difficulties are for everyone, and players who not only represent a very small fraction of the active community, but also don't even play a file more than a few times, shouldn't even be factored into the discussion.

[bmah]

Then make more difficulties... Too stupid to say something like well Rottel, Toxiferous, and FOTBB are all the same skill level.. When clearly they aren't..
Just saying

We ARE making a new difficulty scale if you haven't noticed (1-20). It'll be released to the public soon...these will be massive changes.

Out of curiosity, why SSSG is not a [6,7,8,9] ?

I think it's relevant to thread because FOTBB is the same story on a higher difficulty.

SSSG HAS already been changed to a 7, thanks to this difficulty forum. Regardless, we'll see how it all turns out with the upcoming new difficulty scale.

[who_cares973]

[8:05:08 PM] wc: lets make this the default background to every file on ffr http://www.presentcat.com/

[kmay]

its really not even that easy for index players.

[TC_Halogen]

[8:05:08 PM] wc: lets make this the default background to every file on ffr http://www.presentcat.com/

+100

[emulord]

SSSG is a 7? Fake difficulty shouldnt count as part of the difficulty of a file imo.
This is a 11. Its probably indexable even.
Slowest FMO, if you do a hjkl setup the trills are completely doable.

[Hakulyte]

We ARE making a new difficulty scale if you haven't noticed (1-20). It'll be released to the public soon...these will be massive changes.
SSSG HAS already been changed to a 7, thanks to this difficulty forum. Regardless, we'll see how it all turns out with the upcoming new difficulty scale.

Do you mean 7 in the scale of 1-20 that's not already implemented? It's currently a 5.
Otherwise, if major changes like this are coming, this thread is pretty much pointless. o:

[bmah]

OH right, forgot that a v2 was made for that song. Needless to say, it was even lower than a 5 beforehand. I still won't think it matters until the new scale is implemented. If you have problems after that, then you should probably voice your concerns.

[FrozenAngel91]

its really not even that easy for index players.

This, honestly I remember when I used to index that you had to change directions a lot, and the patterns were actually pretty awkward. In a song this speed it was extremely difficult to manage all that, made it much harder than vertex beta even though I think they're close in BPM (I at least know they're close in NPS)

As for whether it should be an FGO or not, I personally think if you have the speed and reading ability to do this song, you also have the ability to do well on other FGO's too like Frictional Nevada or NaiNai (Frictional actually has very close to the same amount of AAA's as FoTBB does) so I think it should be an FGO

I'm going to be honest here, I don't get why people think that if the patterns are easy then the chart should be a lower difficulty. Speed is important, if you have the speed then reading a file becomes easier, and if you have an easier time reading a file than weird patterns or crazy bursts won't trip you up as much. With that speed, you can play this and other FGO's fine and it will seem easy, but without it you can barely FC and the file can seem impossible. So what I'm saying is, this file requires a lot of speed and if you have the speed to do it then you probably have the speed to do tons of FGO's too since that will make them much easier, so I think it's fair to call this an FGO

Uh sorry for the long rant, I don't think that made much sense and I didn't really have much statistical data :(. Um basically, the speed required for this file is FGO level, I think ability to do songs is mostly based on speed, therefore should be FGO.

>.> <.<

[nois-or-e]

if major changes like this are coming, this thread is pretty much pointless. o:


All of these threads are relevant, though new discussions will take place once the system takes off. This sub forum and the user input will play a massive part in its success.

[i love you]

I forgot that I was still viewing this thread LOL

Anyway, it was a fun read. People have their opinions after all.

PS: I personially think that FotBB should stay as a FMO. The only thing I see in this file that might make it a low FGO is that long one hand trill part. Everything else is just straightforward trilling for the most part with some light repetitive rolls here and there. When it comes down to it, I think it all depends on how well you can trill. This file was actually my 4th FMO AAA and at the time, I was not even close to score well on any FGO file nor did I had that much speed.

[AlexDest]

Basically, the reason I think top players should get out of these discussions is that the difficulty straight up doesn't matter to them. If you have every single high FMO and low FGO AAA'd, it really doesn't matter which one a file is, because you'll just AAA it anyway. But for people who have trouble with FMOs and even *more* trouble with FGOs, having a file they find really difficult ranked too low actually feels wrong. It's as simple as that. Difficulties are for everyone, and players who not only represent a very small fraction of the active community, but also don't even play a file more than a few times, shouldn't even be factored into the discussion.

You haven't bothered reading my post at all, have you.

The problem is that there's a handful of people that are playing spread. People rule out the other styles of play--preferably index or three-fingered--which make FOTBB much more easier than playing on spread. Yes, the one-handed trills are brutal but we can't just base the difficulty for only spread players now. Everyone is just too undetermined to even approach this stepfile with another style of play.

I'm not intending to come out as an elitist, neither am I saying, "you guys are bad this file isn't an FGO." I'm saying is that we shouldn't be ruling out any of the other styles of play which make FOTBB more tolerable than just playing spread.

You guys are just lazy to attempt a stepfile like FOTBB on different play styles, and have to resort to changing difficulties around more suitable for spread because that's the most dominant play style there is.

Still standing as an FMO.

[rushyrulz]

AJ, your whole cooking argument is arrogant as hell. What I got from it is, "All you noobs don't know shit, so keep your mouths shut."

The cooking argument should be saved for a stepping argument if not withheld completely, because creating stepfiles is the closest rhythm gaming context I can think of to 'cooking' chicken. Playing the chart and judging it is closer to 'eating' chicken, so I guess everybody's taste buds are defective. I'm getting sick of using this analogy since it doesn't even apply to this situation, since nobody is criticizing arch0wl's stepping.

PS. Arch0wl I hate you for stepping this monstrosity of a file.

That is all.

[DossarLX ODI]

Subjectivemanias coming in here, but the hardest part of the file is that 4343 transition from that long runningman, this file is nowhere near as straightforward with its random patterns. I'm still standing at high 11 for this though, it doesn't warrant an FGO rating on the current 1-12 scale. On the 1-20 scale, it might be a different case.

rushy, that's what my post was getting at... the people who are having lots of trouble (which is the majority of the community mind you, not just a handful of top tier players) have the best idea on why the file is so hard for them. Having a top tier player just come in and be like "learn different play styles, learn to trill, etc" is just absolutely arrogant. I can even go as far as to saying: anyone who says "learn the file" should get less than 20 goods FC on Death Piano, and as long as you don't have under 20g FC, you are just arrogant and you suck. Or just don't use the "stop sucking" argument in the first place.

In fact, if it's so easy, go learn to switch to index on the one handed trills in Death Piano and learn to quad transition along with learning the jumpgluts and the trill. I agree that purposely making the file harder for yourself by not utilizing certain things does not justify harder difficulty, but it's another thing to ignore the other players who are having way more trouble.

[i love you]

Subjectivemanias coming in here, but the hardest part of the file is that 4343 transition from that long runningman, this file is nowhere near as straightforward with its random patterns. I'm still standing at high 11 for this though, it doesn't warrant an FGO rating on the current 1-12 scale. On the 1-20 scale, it might be a different case.
I will admit. I TOTALLY forgot about that runningman part LOL.

Still sticking to the FMO though.

[TC_Halogen]

rushy, that's what my post was getting at... the people who are having lots of trouble (which is the majority of the community mind you, not just a handful of top tier players) have the best idea on why the file is so hard for them. Having a top tier player just come in and be like "learn different play styles, learn to trill, etc" is just absolutely arrogant.

those who have extreme amounts of trouble on the file are also biased against the rating FOR THAT REASON, which is why i'm saying those who are capable of doing the file hold more merit in their rating if they can offer indifferent opinions on objective areas of the file - it's not arrogant at all and people are just being bitter, and if it sounds that way, then i'm sorry but i'm definitely not changing my opinion, just like I would expect people to adamantly defend their stance on something they feel strongly about - take my argument in stride and if you don't like it, ignore it; it's that simple


I can even go as far as to saying: anyone who says "learn the file" should get less than 20 goods FC on Death Piano, and as long as you don't have under 20g FC, you are just arrogant and you suck. Or just don't use the "stop sucking" argument in the first place. In fact, if it's so easy, go learn to switch to index on the one handed trills in Death Piano and learn to quad transition along with learning the jumpgluts and the trill. I agree that purposely making the file harder for yourself by not utilizing certain things does not justify harder difficulty, but it's another thing to ignore the other players who are having way more trouble.

oh i thought you already di-...bye

[stavie33]

One of the hardest, if not the hardest FMO's in the game for me. I had to train index for months to get the AAA, and I still find you either get it or your PA is awful. The blue note syndrome is atrocious, what's worse is the backgrounds bright as **** leading to lots of lag and funky spacing, and it IS fast to do the one handed trills, even the trills in general. Many will have to switch to index just to do the song. However it's a song that's so based on what you're good at. For example I'm awful at one handed trills, and background songs make my computer lag, so for me, especially with my current comp, it's harder than most FGO's. I don't think I can even SDG it anymore since I haven't indexed in forever, and I've never clean FC'd it spread. It's a song that forces most people to learn a new playing style, that says a lot. Unlike AIM anthem though which is pretty easy to cheat spread, this song is not. I however realize it's such an opinionated song (depends on your computer, as in if it can hold blue notes over backgrounds with no lag at all, it's straight 16ths, otherwise you're in trouble) and you can do trills, then it's not that bad. Thus I leave it really high FMO, which it is, like 81 or something is fine.

[SKG_Scintill]

Trills are basically as fast K8107's. FotBB tops NPS at 14, K8107 tops NPS at 16. It's a 10.

[qqwref]

Trills are basically as fast K8107's. FotBB tops NPS at 14, K8107 tops NPS at 16. It's a 10.
Yeah, and there are 8s with 150 bpm rolls, which run at 20 NPS. So we should probably just push both FotBB and K8 down to a 7. Raw NPS is clearly all that matters in difficulty.

More seriously: K8107 has two-handed jumpstream trills, whereas FotBB has a ton of long one-handed trills (at a higher BPM than K8107), plus awkward transitions, runningmen, and of course blue-note syndrome with a background. Even if you can hit everything perfectly, the blue notes make it easy to get lost and dump goods, and the background makes it harder to read. And if you ignore the chart and just look at the statistics of how well players do, there's no way for a reasonably intelligent person to conclude it's anything less than a mid FMO.

[SKG_Scintill]

I have proof to be reasonably intelligent, ur dum n stuff. It's a 10

[Hakulyte]

SKG_Scintill:

K8107: 0-0-0-0
FOTBB: 81-21-0-60

Come again. Seriously, it's a song you just need to play because stuff we say in theory is a ton more irrelevant than in practice.


v-- Not sure if trolling or trolling.

[SKG_Scintill]

I suck at VCs, I AAA'd K8107 when it was still a FMO. I haven't AAA'd FotBB, hence it's a 10.

[hi19hi19]

Scintill: 1
FFR: 0

Stay tuned for more~

[qqwref]

Sorry, Scintill, I thought you were making an actual argument. Carry on~

I still think, in general, that player statistics are really important when deciding difficulty. Maybe not as important as they are in TS (where difficulty is pmuch entirely determined by player scores, afaik) but it should certainly matter a lot more than some random top player's opinions on how hard patterns are. Whether we are using a 1-13 difficulty system or a 1-20 (or 1-50 or 1-100 or open-ended) we really need to be setting benchmark files and then comparing statistics, in a way that will not be affected by how long songs have been out or how hard they are to unlock. If the whole community statistically finds file A significantly harder than file B, file A is harder, no matter what *any* individual player says.

[jimerax]

hey, this is not a place to post irrelevant materials.

[popsicle_3000]

We ARE making a new difficulty scale if you haven't noticed (1-20). It'll be released to the public soon...these will be massive changes.

SSSG HAS already been changed to a 7, thanks to this difficulty forum. Regardless, we'll see how it all turns out with the upcoming new difficulty scale.

how soon? and are these discussions relevant if the scale is changing?

[8:05:08 PM] wc: lets make this the default background to every file on ffr http://www.presentcat.com/

wow

Trills are basically as fast K8107's. FotBB tops NPS at 14, K8107 tops NPS at 16. It's a 10.
I have proof to be reasonably intelligent, ur dum n stuff. It's a 10

LOL

my 2cents:
-fun reading this thread :)
-I love how DP comes up all the time
-FOTBB should be an 11. I'm more of a traditionalist, and it's been an 11 forever (I was against revo being bumped too, but no matter). I recon BNS files stay the way they are.
-I realize that the above isn't an argument to its difficulty. and like people have mentioned before, I'm not quite good enough to accurately judge the fine line between FMO & FGOs... So, EHHS and FOTBB i'd score similarly on (non-mash), rolls i can do np, one-handed trill not, file not that dense. Seems like a normal top FMO for me.
-P4U i was horrible until i swapped skins, played the non-background version (thanks hakulyte :)) and i almost got a sub 20 FC on it. FOTBB is one step up from that. stays an 11.