Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[hi19hi19]

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

[Lights]

Originally Posted by klimtkiller

I don’t know what rainshower is.

I’m not talking about patterning, although even in the case of patterning, it still had to be consistent and make coherent sense for the chart. the problem I have is allowing ghost notes, and charting to vague sounds which practically don’t exist.

take image material from fullereneshift for example. the handstream is literally just stepped to the singing. you can now pmuch take any random song and make it into a 120 difficulty chart just by going off the vague sounds it makes.

as a stepartist, what’s the point of even searching for a song to step? I remember searching for charts to step and listen to the song thinking “ooh this would make a good chart”, but now that makes no sense because you can make the same kind of chart with any song you choose.

Well. you didn't do what I asked you to do and you ultimately haven't made any new points of substance. Rainshower is a dump file that is currently in FFR that is largely agreed to be a very good execution of dump-ing principles in a chart. This is the kind of file that you're currently standing in opposition of and if you wish to convince people that dumps are of a lower class, demonstrating why this file should not be accepted into FFR's main catalog of files is a pretty good first step to gaining any ground in this debate. Image Material from fullerenshift is irrelevant because its just some random file in some random pack that is, currently, not in contention to be released on FFR.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files shouldn't be in the main song list. The identity of having well synced high quality files can still be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. vROFL very much falls into the category of "meme file" and not a serious attempt at a well made dump file. I would hope anything like vrofl submitted to the dump batch would be rejected pretty quickly and firmly.

So in what way can one draw parallels to osu!mania here or say that FFR would be evolving backwards?

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by Lights

Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files shouldn't be in the main song list. The identity of having well synced high quality files can still be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. vROFL very much falls into the category of "meme file" and not a serious attempt at a well made dump file. I would hope anything like vrofl submitted to the dump batch would be rejected pretty quickly and firmly.

So in what way can one draw parallels to osu!mania here or say that FFR would be evolving backwards?

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

Not being synced to peaks on a waveform, sure. But, and this is the beauty of using ghost notes within the context of a dump, you're not always playing a game of "put the arrows on the waveform" in the first place. This doesnt exclude it from being synced properly provided that the arrows that are matched to distinct sounds in the song are still correctly timed and the ghost notes are still spaced coherently relative to what is being charted to the literal interpretation of the music.

for example, if you chart the sustain of a specific sound as a group of 3 24th notes starting at the peak of that sound, you can still have consistent sync in your file, despite only one of those 3 notes matching to a distinct peak on a waveform. As long as the ghost notes arent hanging out in the middle of nowhere with no direct relation to the actual structure, theres nothing unsynced about a well made dump.

[Tru]

A lot to respond to. I'll try to sum up some thoughts.

This batch was created in part as a response to some recent trends in FFR submissions. Some folks have been pushing the boundaries of "tech" charts by including more factors that we would normally expect in dump charts. Judges have increasingly been fine with the minor use of such things.

Rainshower is among the most distinctly dump-focused file that has been released in FFR. When it was discussed in judge chat, the sentiment was very much "this is just an extension of the current submission trends" as well as being a well made file overall. It appears the playerbase is enjoying it as well, from the discussion in the SOTW and Discord.

In fact, Rainshower represents just one type of file that I'd expect to see actually submitted to this batch. FFR is very much just scratching the surface of what can be done with more "expressiveness" that dumps allow. This batch just "rips the band-aid off" by more openly allowing a dump approach to be considered valid.

That does not mean FFR is in danger of sacrificing it's traditional quality file roots. Dumps are no longer "just throw arrows anywhere," some of them have just as much, if not more explicit structure and such as "tech" files, and can be really fun. We're still expecting musical relevance for pattern/quantization/etc. choices and I wouldn't anticipate that going away for this batch or any other dump file sent in the future. Frankly this argument saddens me, it shows a lack of faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.



Side note that I agree with lofty that dumps have an unfortunate name, and indeed have outgrown that name. It's just what we're going with for now until the community comes up with a new colloquialism.

I also agree that dumps should be included in the main song list and don't need any particular designation/disclaimer. This one might become a staff discussion and decision so I won't elaborate much further.

[hi19hi19]

Tru, a lot of what you said seems to be the argument in favor of the batch, and I've sort of just accepted that this is where FFR is going even though I don't like it.
Before I bow out though let me make one thing clear:

Originally Posted by Tru

Frankly this argument saddens me, it shows a lack of faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

[Tru]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'd of course want to know why. FFR staff in general is pretty flexible/open to ideas. Can dm me to not derail the thread if you want.

[gold stinger]

Originally Posted by Tru

Side note that I agree with lofty that dumps have an unfortunate name, and indeed have outgrown that name. It's just what we're going with for now until the community comes up with a new colloquialism.

I personally call them 'Vantablacks' or such patterning 'Vantablacking', because it was one of the first songs in-game to actively take a stance on such patterning (alongside Naruto's Ninja Way), and I specifically had a stake on the judgment and seeing that song go in-game.

[Lights]

Freeform scrollies.

[Wiosna]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I initially didn't answer that question of "shifting away from the identity of high-quality files" because I felt it came from a flawed premise to begin with. I think "well-synced" is true because it's more objective, but I don't agree with the judging system necessarily being a good assessment of "quality" -- certainly not one that picks out "high-quality" ones at least. High-quality files will pass the system, but not all files in the system are high-quality blah blah. Internal structural consistency is not a sufficient requirement for a file to be of high-quality. I don't blame judges for this either, of course (I was a judge myself), I think it's one of the easiest and least controversial ways of assessing a file, but there is this rift between how judges perceive files, how stepartists perceive files, and how players perceive files with that approach.

There's definitely some truth behind the FFR stepping community having a certain identity though -- the boundaries set by the FFR judge team has caused the stepping community on FFR to create files in specific directions, and I think it's most pronounced in the highest echelons of the game. It has by far the highest concentration of really technical hard files out of any rhythm game that I know, and I find that to be extremely fascinating. There are also other things like players having quite different file palettes than other communities, but I don't have too many things concrete about it. I've always wanted to do some ethnographic analysis on how specific charting trends shape rhythm game communities, though, so my thoughts on this will change over time.

I can contrast this to osu!mania, where off-the-walls technical (think even T11) files are just so much more rare. I think there are multiple reasons for this beyond "dumps aren't allowed in the official part of our games" (which isn't even true anymore), but I do believe that that's a small contributor. So I do think that something on FFR would be lost somewhat with FFR accepting dumpy (not dumps) files, I just don't think that "high-quality" should be a descriptor for it. Technical slant maybe, and by then, the question of whether that identity should change becomes much easier to contend with. I know that you're looking for a positive argument towards allowing dumps/dumpy elements, but I'm just explaining my reasons for giving a "why not" reason at the start.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

I think this is just rude tbh. osu!mania's charting community is imo pretty dire for multiple reasons and I don't think FFR is anywhere near that point. I won't say that osu!mania is necessarily filled with derivative work, but I think the osu!mania scene is trying to find its own identity and the game being a safe haven for dumps is misguided. I also think that FFR, even when you look strictly at the dumps that people in this community have made, are much closer to tech files with ghost note elements, so think closer to Rainshower than... the archetypal dump file that you can think of, really.

I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating.

I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping.

And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m).

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.

I (think I) know what you're trying to say here with dump files not being on sync by definition -- but I think it's presumptuous to say that just because a dump file isn't synced in the conventional sense (notes placed to attacks and only attacks) doesn't mean that it should be a file in-game. Most dumps have notes to peaks rather than strictly attacks, which again, does have a notably different feeling of gameplay (a misuse of this can lead to a file being very loose and tenuous to play through) and is a bit dicier to judge than more literal files, but I find it hard-pressed to think about whether that's necessarily a thing that should exclude a style from the game -- even ones that were executed very well. It seems like a trade-off thing that judges have to consider, which I think is manageable, though I think that there will be pitfalls in judging here and there all the same that judges will face. In that sense, I definitely see the lack of faith in maintaining judge standards, because it does require additional criteria for assessment.

I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point.

[s1rnight]

i think there is an alchemy between the way the chart feels to play and the way the song sounds that can quite easily be lost - its what animated the original ddr games for example, back when it was literally tied to dance (slow genres of dance were the easier charts, whereas energetic genres of dance were the more difficult charts)

[s1rnight]

(it brings to heart the same kind of healthy collaboration you see more obviously among the japanese rhythm gamers with things like the BMS contests, where people write songs in order to write charts for them, which then stimulates dreams of more songs that could be written for charts yet to be made, which then stimulates more songs made to be written for charts, and so on, and they work symbiotically...!)

(it would be dangerous, for example, to say "well, there are a lot of songs, but it is the charts that matter, so i will use any song to make any chart i want", because any possibility for wider interaction is then lost... you lose, for example, the sense that what a person does when he hits the arrows is a kind of drumming, and itself a part of the very music he is hitting along to...)

(though at some point, when he hits the keys/"drums" fast enough, there is a sense that what he is doing is no longer "drumming" as such, either... for example, a "300 bpm" stream is already equivalent to a 20hz tone! because of that, i often see the temptation in the osu!mania files, such as for example, in "mario paint [d.another]" to treat a vibrato or even a single sustained tone as a "very fast vibration of drum notes"... since that is in a sense what it is...!)

[s1rnight]

(its beyond the scope of the website, but i often wonder if that "vibratory" open problem, where sufficiently fast drumming begins to sound like a tone, could be solved with a secondary peripheral/mechanic where a guy blows into a mouthpiece at different rates/strengths... it'd be unsanitary to have as an arcade game, but it'd work very well for a home computer!)

[Wind0ze]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Most charter's idea of a modern quality dump chart has nearly complete overlap with what makes a conventional chart good, with the exception of the notion that each note must correlate with the attack of one sound as Wiosna said before. Layering, pitch relevancy, pattern motifs, difficulty balance, and everything else that one would usually consider is something that is considered in a good dump chart. Equating every dump chart to vROFL on the grounds that both don't follow the singular difference between these two charting styles is akin to equating every conventional file with that one joke file Stargroup made where he put 64th jacks to Amber Shores because both follow the "Assign notes to attacks only" rule.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

The identity of having well synced high quality files can't be maintained with the inclusion of dumps. They are literally defined by not being synced. That's the assertion I made to argue that dumps shouldn't be in the main song list. Read.
Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.

The 1:1 association of notes to rhythms in a chart is a concept that becomes increasingly irrelevant the higher the speed of the chart is. Nobody playing a T11/devnull/whatever chart is processing the 25+ KPS rainbow bursts to garbled cacophonies of sliced drum samples as a series of individual notes that form a rhythm, both the pattern and the sound itself are perceived as one entity, with the characteristics of the pattern correlating to aspects of the collective sound formed that have nothing to do with what rhythm is actually being played at over a tempo far faster than anyone can actually distinguish the individual notes. By acknowledging this perception and applying it to other sounds that are characterized more by aspects such as frequency and timbre rather than rhythm (Dubstep wubs, vocals, etc.), dump charts can be constructed in a way that is just as contingent on what the music is currently doing as conventional charting, if not more. It is this perspective on dump charting that I think FFR has been gravitating towards, and I think it makes sense as it's just an extension of how players already perceive harder charts. The inclusion of dumps into FFR does not necessarily have to compromise the site's focus on charts with a strong association to the music, as long as dumps are evaluated with the expectation of an approach like this.

[Pizza69]

Wind0ze's post is really great and sums up my reasons for wanting this batch perfectly, as well as how my approach has shifted as a stepartist. I'm unabashedly a T11 & DEV/NULL enjoyer, I've made several technically correct 100+ files for their songs and am sure I'll make more in the future. However, partially because of the experience of charting those and then experiencing them months later as a player, my principal focus in charts I've made in the past year and a half or so has been on flow and matching the intensity of the song... which is exactly the goal of most modern dump charting (though my charts have still generally been fully technical). So, I'm just here to give a massive +1 to this:

Originally Posted by Wind0ze

It is this perspective on dump charting that I think FFR has been gravitating towards, and I think it makes sense as it's just an extension of how players already perceive harder charts. The inclusion of dumps into FFR does not necessarily have to compromise the site's focus on charts with a strong association to the music, as long as dumps are evaluated with the expectation of an approach like this.

[WirryWoo]

Ever since joining the site, I've always associated FFR as a platform to create more exposure to new artist's music through a fun rhythm game medium. It's why we always have to go out to seek for permissions to use artist's music in the game and it's why I'm in high support for visions like the recent "The Official New Musician Reward System" where step artists are rewarded for creating content to push towards that eye-opening vision for the broader community. I strongly believe that this is the main distinguishing aspect of the game compared to other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania! (it's also why I'm not interested in these games because I only play this game for fun but that's just my own personal bias speaking here).

That said, I do think that creating "dumps" removes many great opportunities to musically and rhythmically reflect the goals of a musician's work and personally I think that's really a shame. Even though other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania are not designed as safe havens for dumps, there is a reason why top players are playing dump-like files much more on these rhythm gaming platforms. In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps. We can push towards that direction if we want, but I do think it's really important to respect the initial goals of why FFR exists, and the initial reasons why FFR is successful in the first place. The game has certainly involved past those initial goals, but it's really up to us and the community to refocus on defining where we want FFR to be many years from now.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by WirryWoo

That said, I do think that creating "dumps" removes many great opportunities to musically and rhythmically reflect the goals of a musician's work and personally I think that's really a shame. Even though other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania are not designed as safe havens for dumps, there is a reason why top players are playing dump-like files much more on these rhythm gaming platforms. In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps. We can push towards that direction if we want, but I do think it's really important to respect the initial goals of why FFR exists, and the initial reasons why FFR is successful in the first place. The game has certainly involved past those initial goals, but it's really up to us and the community to refocus on defining where we want FFR to be many years from now.

I don't think creating dumps "removes" any opportunities to do anything. The existing charting meta isn't going to suddenly shift away from technically focused charts just because we're not auto-rejecting dumps and / or allowing them to have their own batch and I'm sure theres going to continue to be high quality content produced that fits the traditional FFR style.

Apologies in advance for the blasphemy I'm about to spew but the modern 4key VSRG scene is a far cry from the vision FFR had when it was first created. And while the content being released on FFR today has clearly evolved along with it, its still a relatively narrow subsection of what can be created on this medium. And, from the perspective of a player, my goal is to have a good time playing fun charts. The music and expression of the music is secondary to this most of the time. I'm able to appreciate the artform of charting and recognize that the content FFR currently focuses on is fun, but I can only see it as a massive shame that a relatively prominent and popular genre of chart (in the greater 4key VSRG scene) is being rejected by so many people because it doesn't fit into this narrow subsection of "what has been".

Sure, I'm new to the community- I've got no ties to the older days of FFR and no real value towards preserving how things have traditionally been. From my perspective, though, FFR has been taking a lot of great steps forwards towards establishing itself as a more viable client to play on in the modern day (even in the short couple years i've been paying attention). I think expanding the type of content being offered is another important step in continuing this trend.

Is FFR around today to appeal to the older generation of players that grew up with it? Or does FFR want to try to establish a wider appeal and continue to grow all these years later?

[Tru]

Quick heads up - only ~1 week left to get in any submissions to the dump batch!

If you miss it or fill your submission cap, you can still send dump files to the regular batch.

[sff_writer_dan]

Originally Posted by WirryWoo

In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps.

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

[M0nkeyz]

The line between what's a dump and what's not a dump is blurry at the moment, I think cases where the dump sections make sense both musically and intensity-wise are perfectly fine. A dump file should in my mind still adhere to the rules that normal files do; sync, chart structure and layering remain facets that charts will be judged on.

Shindeiru in my opinion is one of the best dumps we currently have in the game, it has a very clear structure and all the sounds are consistently stepped. Yes, the use of bursts for wub sounds can be considered an exaggeration, but in my mind it's the same thing as stepping every single background noise in HFF or RATO or going crazy with chordjacks and heavy JS.

FFR is changing, the quality of dumps has changed. High quality dump files like the Sharpnel JS files or some of the wub-dumps like vantablack, shindeiru and rainshower all have a place in current FFR and the reception has been mostly positive.
I definitely raised an eyebrow when I saw the ''dump batch'' pop up. I've had trepidations around the image of FFR and how this will affect it, about how FFR would lose its niche as a place for accurately stepped technical charts and I think people's concerns are valid. However, I think FFR's biggest niche is having a tight-knit community and an engine full of songs that are easily recognized without the need to download a bunch of packs.

Lastly, the current judge team's ability to judge dumps remains to be seen. Since our team consists of mostly new judges the road has been a bit bumpy at times, but I think we're improving at a rapid rate. I've personally become alot more open-minded and alot better at figuring out people's intend when making stuff than I was before and I think I'm ready to assess dump files at this point.