08-26-2022, 12:37 PM | #121 |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
At this point i feel theres such a severe disconnect on what constitutes a well made dump that further discussion is pointless as I don't see a lot of common ground to discuss this on with parts of the opposition.
Vrofl and Legacy files are not good comparisons in this case. we're just going to be going in circles until thats been established. Perhaps this would be worth revisiting once a few charts from this batch have been released.
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Last edited by Lights; 08-26-2022 at 12:46 PM.. |
08-26-2022, 02:35 PM | #122 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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I genuinely don't understand how this can be so difficult. Your argument literally boils down to transformative work shouldn't be transformative, which is just a flat out ridiculous ideology to have. |
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08-26-2022, 03:21 PM | #123 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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08-26-2022, 03:50 PM | #124 | ||||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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you've been a member of this site long enough to know about the game's limitations and that the community's general understanding of what made a file classically good took years to truly develop, even with all of dumb gatekeepy shit that went on during the dark chancellor's era Quote:
I really think this entire conversation is sullied by virtue of what we call these charts. the etymology of "dump" is that we're just "dumping arrows," and yeah if you tell an artist that you used their music to "create a dump," they have zero context and will assume you're calling their music a "steaming dump." imo a lot of this can be averted by referring to them as something different, and I really think "abstract" is a much better and much more accurate term to describe them. you're not charting something literally, you're abstracting the feel of the music into the chart itself. Quote:
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08-26-2022, 04:00 PM | #125 | |
e
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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FFR's content niche, with the addition of dumps, will focus on well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg. Many recent file submissions have included some elements that one might have associated only with dump files. These files pushed the boundaries of what FFR would accept. And we've accepted many of them. Because they're well-polished, quality charts. So this batch just reduces FFR's boundaries to more thorough dump charts -- rather than a handful of elements like in wubdumps, you can make the whole chart have interesting elements to interpret the music to. We're really just allowing another style of well-polished, quality charts. Just because the boundaries have changed doesn't mean you can't still push them further. Just because we're allowing more explicitly dump charts doesn't take away from traditional "tech" charts. If it's a well-polished, quality chart, it'll be equally appreciated. It's just up to us judges to maintain the well-polished, quality status of charts with the addition of dumps. I have every confidence in the judge team to do so. We're still looking for internal consistency and musical relevance, as well as effectiveness and "not-complete-bs-ness" of a stepartist's choices. These are exceptionally similar to what we're already looking for. Even if many of the judge team hasn't/don't make dump files, we're also not above asking for insight from people more experienced with dumps to help ensure we're accepting well-polished, quality charts. Novice players most likely won't see dumps, at least until they skillboost up a bunch from passing Control. I'm not certain it's possible to make a dump chart easier than at least ~65 in FFR's current difficulty scale. But I'd love to be proven wrong on this with well-polished, quality charts. What really made FFR unique among vsrg's was always being able to play well-polished, quality charts made by some of the best steppers in any vsrg. But also to do that in a web browser with no real additional downloads. Returning that capability after the death of Flash is in development. -- I also vehemently oppose segregating dumps in any way, be it with a tag, new genre, removed from regular level ranks, whatever. We'd just be setting ourselves up for categorization hell (is x file a dump?) when we encounter those files that blur the edges between dump and "tech." We already have a number of those in the game, contributing to level ranks, behaving like regular files. Because they are regular files. Just because dumps in FFR is "new" (despite having some already) doesn't mean we need to distinguish them separately in any way. A news post about it is more than enough. We didn't need to segregate Blooddrunk v1 just because it had something new to FFR at the time (hands). There's no need for any disclaimer on the well-polished, quality dump charts we're likely to accept. -- Also wanted to mention that this post is one of the most genuinely heart-warming things I've read in some time, and I greatly appreciate it. |
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08-26-2022, 04:03 PM | #126 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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hate to break it to you bub, but the casuals, the general public? they aren't listening to idm, or breakcore, or glitchcore, or any of the rhythmically wild music that currently sits in the highest levels of ffr. they are listening to the artists that show up on television shows like saturday night live. the way that folks like you and me listen to music after nearly 20 years of playing vsrgs is completely different than how casual gamers in the general public listen to music. Last edited by _choof; 08-26-2022 at 04:10 PM.. |
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08-26-2022, 04:13 PM | #127 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
I wonder how many people only know of air by shiki because porterhouse robinson dropped it in a live set
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08-26-2022, 04:17 PM | #128 | ||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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08-26-2022, 05:06 PM | #129 | |||
shots FIRED
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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I'd hope you'd address this with a holistic perspective of FFR and its overall outlook and growth through what makes it stand out from other games, something it has less and less of as time goes by. I'm not here to dispute the nature of dumps themselves. Quote:
You actually present a potential argument to have such "casuals" be interested in listening to new types of songs they would otherwise not be aware of. As you mentioned, casuals listen to those latest up and coming bands. FFR could be an introduction to other types of music, and not necessarily "rhythm game music" either. There's a large number of folks here who appreciate stuff like ambient, idm, etc. as you said. For a while, especially in earlier years, FFR made a greater case to promote artists. Actually, as recently as a few months ago, we're trying to bring back this emphasis via detailed front page posts. tl;dr yes casuals don't listen to breakcore...but why not let FFR be an avenue to promote new music. Get that curiosity of new genres of music going through the medium of a fun game. Quote:
I think what we're missing are tools to more accurately measure the opinions of the general populace of FFR, NOT the "perceived" populace of FFR (the vocal, active community). Tools such as polls built into the site that pops up for every single user, so that even "quiet casuals" can participate. Do you remember the time a couple months ago when the FFR game was down? Players I've never seen before suddenly started popping up in the Discord server asking for help. These are folks who would likely have never made a visible presence otherwise - I think this is proof that there are a lot of folks out there who just play the game and don't say a word. It'd be great if we could reach out to everyone on various subject matters and get a truer overall opinion of the site as a whole. (and I think it's a mistake to assume that only the people who speak up matters) Just to reiterate, the reason why I'm putting so much emphasis on this holistic perspective is because it ties back to FFR's growth and identity. Just trying to keep a perspective to have the site and community healthy for years to come. Dumps? Great. But let's continually try to come up with other new things while we're at it. Last edited by bmah; 08-26-2022 at 05:26 PM.. |
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08-26-2022, 05:09 PM | #130 |
Boom.
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
From a player perspective: I would actually enjoy and play FFR more if there were 'dumps' in game, not separated to where they don't count for anything. Maybe just like a tag or something so people know. But as a player, I actually enjoy listening to good music as I play, not just the same boring assfartcore stuff, and 'dumps' really provide there where FFR lacks songwise. The idea that 'dumps' are bad and shouldn't belong feels pretty elitist to me personally, since 'dumps' don't necessarily take away from a chart's quality if done in the right manner. It just personally feels like there's a major disconnect between steppers here and players in that sense. It may just be me but I do not care in the slightest if it is technically accurate, if it is just bpm synced well enough and follows along decently, I'll like it. FFR can still have high-quality files and allow 'dumps' in game. It's not hard, just stop gatekeeping so higher level players actually have more of a reason to play the damn game.
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08-26-2022, 05:22 PM | #131 |
shots FIRED
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Dumps are fine but I sense that it caters mostly to a vocal minority who are very active in the community and are capable of playing them. We keep talking about getting more content for higher-levelled players. Just as one can argue "higher level players actually have more of a reason to play the damn game" I'm still concerned about content and innovations for...well...everyone else? It circles back to what I mentioned earlier about organic growth and not only looking towards very seasoned players that are already familiar with rhythm games.
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08-26-2022, 06:53 PM | #132 | ||||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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I don't understand how my argument boils down to that ridiculous ideology. All I'm doing is using past examples of what was previously done to create FFR's identity (at least I thought these are fair examples) and trying to understand how well stepped dumps can fit into that vision. I personally don't see it fit based on what I said, and it's fine to disagree with my arguments, but please do point out specific disagreements in my argument so we can see where the differences of our opinion lie. Quote:
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That's fine too. Being aware of the community's stance on this, they won't like this idea either because there will be arguments like: "Why is file X removed from ranks? That's my best score in my Top 100... and this file is removed from ranks because it's just a 'bad' file?!" Again, it's a controversial opinion I'll always have, so I won't comment further on it haha. Quote:
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08-26-2022, 07:41 PM | #133 | ||
e
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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At the very least, we're trying something new to FFR here, and expanding the pool of viable artists to select music from. To me, dumps will be at worst neutral in "growing the game." If you want to grow this game, it isn't going to be purely from good content. Countless SOTWs have proven this. The site sees its heaviest traffic during events like the OT. So host an event. FFR files are just notes. So advocate for/develop new mechanics. Host an event with new mechanics. The most distinguishing factor FFR has ever had was being able to play it in a web browser. So go help develop rrr. From a new content perspective, this batch was a relatively obvious move. We can find ways to incentivize the type of files you want to see too. If you have ideas on either what you want to see brought in or how you want to do so, I'm all ears. |
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08-26-2022, 08:14 PM | #134 |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
+1 to choofs suggestion for calling dumps "abstract charts".
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08-26-2022, 08:21 PM | #135 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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08-26-2022, 08:22 PM | #136 |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
omg i need a 109 diff dump of all the small things
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08-27-2022, 03:00 PM | #137 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
I do want to give my input on what FFR's identity is to me and how dumps would affect that from a stepper's perspective as well. My post is awfully long so I'll just spoiler it into pieces. Given my experience across multiple 4K VSRGs, I ultimately feel that people saying that FFR's identity being a safe haven for "high-quality non-dumps" is selling FFR as a game really short and that there are many different things that FFR brings from other 4K VSRGs. Moderators can move this into a separate thread because it's an awful lot of text that could be its own discussion.
I don't expect anyone to read this in full, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Since people are talking about FFR not having an identity, I feel that it's worth sharing how I feel about its stepping community and how different it is from other rhythm games I've been in. Last edited by Wiosna; 08-27-2022 at 03:02 PM.. |
08-27-2022, 03:36 PM | #138 | ||||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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and honestly with this example, if you told an artist you were charting reverb it'd probably blow their mind lmao Quote:
while yes, an abstract chart is going to probably be harder overall than a technical chart for the same song, it doesn't always have to be that much harder, and you can still incorporate abstract stuff in a technical chart as well (think of it as trading technicality for playability). abstraction will probably end up making more and more sense the better and better a player becomes. Quote:
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also run more easy song batches and incentivize the seasoned players to make more easy charts. seasoned players want to make stuff around the difficulties they're most comfy with. |
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08-27-2022, 04:01 PM | #139 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Lack of a hold mechanic alone should get steppers in this game to understand that “tech dumps” or “abstract” files can and will be fun and innovative when applied to the ffr engine.
Some of you oldheads literally don’t get how tech dumps are charted.
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~~Sexy~~Sassy~~Skilled~~ Last edited by loftyb; 08-27-2022 at 04:01 PM.. |
08-27-2022, 05:44 PM | #140 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Yeah when I made the comparison to legacy files, I thought it would be pretty clear that it was a joke, just like taking the "dumps means the steps don't map directly onto distinct sounds" concept and applying it, for humour, to legacy files being incredibly out of sync.
It definitely is the case that there are probably people here opposing dumps because the name evokes files like vROFL where you just "dump" notes into a file, so I think it might be worth the effort to find a better name that evokes what people want, but I also don't think 'abstract' gets you there either. There's definitely still a direct connection between the music and the steps, as I understand it, you're just taking liberties to replace what might be a single quarter note with an 8-note roll when the song has a buzz. It's still starting and stopping to the music, it's just a more liberal interpretation of a pattern inside the note yeah? I think there's a lot of potential in being able to take more downtempo stuff and make it more technically difficult and a higher difficulty with 'dumps' being allowed, not just songs that are >100 Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way 'dump' is meant to be used here could easily cover stuff like the opening buzz tones in Dendrite which are nothing in the v1, and single notes in the v2, being like bursts or rolls instead which would make it "a dump" technically but still be as low as 50 or 60 depending on what else is done in there. |
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