08-23-2022, 04:50 PM | #81 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it. I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great. The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list? Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be. I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards. I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao
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08-23-2022, 05:29 PM | #82 | ||
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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So in what way can one draw parallels to osu!mania here or say that FFR would be evolving backwards?
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08-23-2022, 06:10 PM | #83 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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Unless I'm missing some sarcasm / joke here, you didn't really post anything to back up the assertion that these files should be in the main song list.
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08-23-2022, 06:31 PM | #84 | |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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for example, if you chart the sustain of a specific sound as a group of 3 24th notes starting at the peak of that sound, you can still have consistent sync in your file, despite only one of those 3 notes matching to a distinct peak on a waveform. As long as the ghost notes arent hanging out in the middle of nowhere with no direct relation to the actual structure, theres nothing unsynced about a well made dump.
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08-23-2022, 06:36 PM | #85 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
A lot to respond to. I'll try to sum up some thoughts.
This batch was created in part as a response to some recent trends in FFR submissions. Some folks have been pushing the boundaries of "tech" charts by including more factors that we would normally expect in dump charts. Judges have increasingly been fine with the minor use of such things. Rainshower is among the most distinctly dump-focused file that has been released in FFR. When it was discussed in judge chat, the sentiment was very much "this is just an extension of the current submission trends" as well as being a well made file overall. It appears the playerbase is enjoying it as well, from the discussion in the SOTW and Discord. In fact, Rainshower represents just one type of file that I'd expect to see actually submitted to this batch. FFR is very much just scratching the surface of what can be done with more "expressiveness" that dumps allow. This batch just "rips the band-aid off" by more openly allowing a dump approach to be considered valid. That does not mean FFR is in danger of sacrificing it's traditional quality file roots. Dumps are no longer "just throw arrows anywhere," some of them have just as much, if not more explicit structure and such as "tech" files, and can be really fun. We're still expecting musical relevance for pattern/quantization/etc. choices and I wouldn't anticipate that going away for this batch or any other dump file sent in the future. Frankly this argument saddens me, it shows a lack of faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards. Side note that I agree with lofty that dumps have an unfortunate name, and indeed have outgrown that name. It's just what we're going with for now until the community comes up with a new colloquialism. I also agree that dumps should be included in the main song list and don't need any particular designation/disclaimer. This one might become a staff discussion and decision so I won't elaborate much further. |
08-23-2022, 06:51 PM | #86 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Tru, a lot of what you said seems to be the argument in favor of the batch, and I've sort of just accepted that this is where FFR is going even though I don't like it.
Before I bow out though let me make one thing clear: I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.
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08-23-2022, 07:02 PM | #87 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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08-23-2022, 07:57 PM | #88 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
I personally call them 'Vantablacks' or such patterning 'Vantablacking', because it was one of the first songs in-game to actively take a stance on such patterning (alongside Naruto's Ninja Way), and I specifically had a stake on the judgment and seeing that song go in-game.
Last edited by gold stinger; 08-23-2022 at 08:02 PM.. |
08-23-2022, 08:16 PM | #89 |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Freeform scrollies.
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08-23-2022, 08:17 PM | #90 | |||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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There's definitely some truth behind the FFR stepping community having a certain identity though -- the boundaries set by the FFR judge team has caused the stepping community on FFR to create files in specific directions, and I think it's most pronounced in the highest echelons of the game. It has by far the highest concentration of really technical hard files out of any rhythm game that I know, and I find that to be extremely fascinating. There are also other things like players having quite different file palettes than other communities, but I don't have too many things concrete about it. I've always wanted to do some ethnographic analysis on how specific charting trends shape rhythm game communities, though, so my thoughts on this will change over time. I can contrast this to osu!mania, where off-the-walls technical (think even T11) files are just so much more rare. I think there are multiple reasons for this beyond "dumps aren't allowed in the official part of our games" (which isn't even true anymore), but I do believe that that's a small contributor. So I do think that something on FFR would be lost somewhat with FFR accepting dumpy (not dumps) files, I just don't think that "high-quality" should be a descriptor for it. Technical slant maybe, and by then, the question of whether that identity should change becomes much easier to contend with. I know that you're looking for a positive argument towards allowing dumps/dumpy elements, but I'm just explaining my reasons for giving a "why not" reason at the start. Quote:
I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating. I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping. And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m). Quote:
I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point. Last edited by Wiosna; 08-23-2022 at 08:19 PM.. |
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08-23-2022, 09:12 PM | #91 |
( ŻuŻ)-b
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
i think there is an alchemy between the way the chart feels to play and the way the song sounds that can quite easily be lost - its what animated the original ddr games for example, back when it was literally tied to dance (slow genres of dance were the easier charts, whereas energetic genres of dance were the more difficult charts)
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08-23-2022, 09:33 PM | #92 |
( ŻuŻ)-b
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
(it brings to heart the same kind of healthy collaboration you see more obviously among the japanese rhythm gamers with things like the BMS contests, where people write songs in order to write charts for them, which then stimulates dreams of more songs that could be written for charts yet to be made, which then stimulates more songs made to be written for charts, and so on, and they work symbiotically...!)
(it would be dangerous, for example, to say "well, there are a lot of songs, but it is the charts that matter, so i will use any song to make any chart i want", because any possibility for wider interaction is then lost... you lose, for example, the sense that what a person does when he hits the arrows is a kind of drumming, and itself a part of the very music he is hitting along to...) (though at some point, when he hits the keys/"drums" fast enough, there is a sense that what he is doing is no longer "drumming" as such, either... for example, a "300 bpm" stream is already equivalent to a 20hz tone! because of that, i often see the temptation in the osu!mania files, such as for example, in "mario paint [d.another]" to treat a vibrato or even a single sustained tone as a "very fast vibration of drum notes"... since that is in a sense what it is...!) Last edited by s1rnight; 08-23-2022 at 09:40 PM.. |
08-23-2022, 09:45 PM | #93 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
(its beyond the scope of the website, but i often wonder if that "vibratory" open problem, where sufficiently fast drumming begins to sound like a tone, could be solved with a secondary peripheral/mechanic where a guy blows into a mouthpiece at different rates/strengths... it'd be unsanitary to have as an arcade game, but it'd work very well for a home computer!)
Last edited by s1rnight; 08-23-2022 at 09:53 PM.. |
08-23-2022, 10:58 PM | #94 | ||
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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08-24-2022, 02:22 AM | #95 | |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Wind0ze's post is really great and sums up my reasons for wanting this batch perfectly, as well as how my approach has shifted as a stepartist. I'm unabashedly a T11 & DEV/NULL enjoyer, I've made several technically correct 100+ files for their songs and am sure I'll make more in the future. However, partially because of the experience of charting those and then experiencing them months later as a player, my principal focus in charts I've made in the past year and a half or so has been on flow and matching the intensity of the song... which is exactly the goal of most modern dump charting (though my charts have still generally been fully technical). So, I'm just here to give a massive +1 to this:
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08-24-2022, 08:57 AM | #96 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Ever since joining the site, I've always associated FFR as a platform to create more exposure to new artist's music through a fun rhythm game medium. It's why we always have to go out to seek for permissions to use artist's music in the game and it's why I'm in high support for visions like the recent "The Official New Musician Reward System" where step artists are rewarded for creating content to push towards that eye-opening vision for the broader community. I strongly believe that this is the main distinguishing aspect of the game compared to other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania! (it's also why I'm not interested in these games because I only play this game for fun but that's just my own personal bias speaking here).
That said, I do think that creating "dumps" removes many great opportunities to musically and rhythmically reflect the goals of a musician's work and personally I think that's really a shame. Even though other rhythm games like Etterna and osumania are not designed as safe havens for dumps, there is a reason why top players are playing dump-like files much more on these rhythm gaming platforms. In my opinion, it's because the initial goals of FFR are not designed to support dumps. We can push towards that direction if we want, but I do think it's really important to respect the initial goals of why FFR exists, and the initial reasons why FFR is successful in the first place. The game has certainly involved past those initial goals, but it's really up to us and the community to refocus on defining where we want FFR to be many years from now.
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08-24-2022, 10:44 PM | #97 | |
owo
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
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Apologies in advance for the blasphemy I'm about to spew but the modern 4key VSRG scene is a far cry from the vision FFR had when it was first created. And while the content being released on FFR today has clearly evolved along with it, its still a relatively narrow subsection of what can be created on this medium. And, from the perspective of a player, my goal is to have a good time playing fun charts. The music and expression of the music is secondary to this most of the time. I'm able to appreciate the artform of charting and recognize that the content FFR currently focuses on is fun, but I can only see it as a massive shame that a relatively prominent and popular genre of chart (in the greater 4key VSRG scene) is being rejected by so many people because it doesn't fit into this narrow subsection of "what has been". Sure, I'm new to the community- I've got no ties to the older days of FFR and no real value towards preserving how things have traditionally been. From my perspective, though, FFR has been taking a lot of great steps forwards towards establishing itself as a more viable client to play on in the modern day (even in the short couple years i've been paying attention). I think expanding the type of content being offered is another important step in continuing this trend. Is FFR around today to appeal to the older generation of players that grew up with it? Or does FFR want to try to establish a wider appeal and continue to grow all these years later?
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08-24-2022, 11:10 PM | #98 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
Quick heads up - only ~1 week left to get in any submissions to the dump batch!
If you miss it or fill your submission cap, you can still send dump files to the regular batch. |
08-25-2022, 01:44 AM | #99 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P
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08-25-2022, 02:33 AM | #100 |
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Re: Dump Batch Discussion Thread
The line between what's a dump and what's not a dump is blurry at the moment, I think cases where the dump sections make sense both musically and intensity-wise are perfectly fine. A dump file should in my mind still adhere to the rules that normal files do; sync, chart structure and layering remain facets that charts will be judged on.
Shindeiru in my opinion is one of the best dumps we currently have in the game, it has a very clear structure and all the sounds are consistently stepped. Yes, the use of bursts for wub sounds can be considered an exaggeration, but in my mind it's the same thing as stepping every single background noise in HFF or RATO or going crazy with chordjacks and heavy JS. FFR is changing, the quality of dumps has changed. High quality dump files like the Sharpnel JS files or some of the wub-dumps like vantablack, shindeiru and rainshower all have a place in current FFR and the reception has been mostly positive. I definitely raised an eyebrow when I saw the ''dump batch'' pop up. I've had trepidations around the image of FFR and how this will affect it, about how FFR would lose its niche as a place for accurately stepped technical charts and I think people's concerns are valid. However, I think FFR's biggest niche is having a tight-knit community and an engine full of songs that are easily recognized without the need to download a bunch of packs. Lastly, the current judge team's ability to judge dumps remains to be seen. Since our team consists of mostly new judges the road has been a bit bumpy at times, but I think we're improving at a rapid rate. I've personally become alot more open-minded and alot better at figuring out people's intend when making stuff than I was before and I think I'm ready to assess dump files at this point. Last edited by M0nkeyz; 08-25-2022 at 02:43 AM.. |
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