Suicide

[senate7377]

Originally Posted by Sera13

I do not think that Sucide and aiding in suicide is a case by case issue no matter what. Ive seen suffering of people from all ages races and creeds the ones who did not off them selves found to have somthing to go on. It may not be evident or something that is seemingly important at all, but theres always SOMTHING. The ones who did off them selves missed out on so much. After they died the amount of things they had to live for quicly surfaced and it was horrible to think they had NOTHING.

This statement reinforces my prior about things in life are a case by case basis. The fact we are even debating this proves it. You can NOT walk in others shoes and by assuming that you can empathise with the suffering is in reality, foolish. Who are you to pretend to understand the pain I feel if I felt it. You can only sympathize, but never truely understand me. What sucks for me may not suck for you, and vice versa (we've established a common ground there). In the cases of personal suffering at an elderly age, I'd be interested in hearing what you would consider worth living for? In the case of my grandfather, had he said he wanted to be euthanized, I'd ask the Dr. if he'd consider it. The man had nothing left but pain and sorrow. Keeping him alive would be testament to personal selfishness. It IS case by case. Not everyone is WILLING to look for things to live for and to force it down their throat in many cases makes it worse. A time comes when you want nothing more than to go... let them. I agree child suicide is unfortunate and in their case reasons for living on can be made. Once again, like I said; they have not had the opportunity to understand what hope, fear, love, hate, pain, surprise, compassion, and lonliness truley are (and I feel bad if they feel that they really do). For all intents and purposes, they are emotionally uneducated. Marriage in respect to the climbing divorce rate proves this to a degree when considering the declining age of the couples being married.

So, I'm interested in hearing what would be your reason to keep Terri Schavio alive? The mental health of her parents? Thats total disergard for the person in potential suffering. Terri, was supposedly unaware of her condition, the Dr. said she'd never come out of her state, the parents hurt looking at her, and she was practically an empty husk of a person. When is trading a life beneficial? - its not chess, in some cases its selfish to hold on. You're going on the assumption that there is a rainbow after EVERY storm. There is not. For you there may be, but the depressed mind, in particular those who feel most comfortable in bad situations, will create a state of dispair for themselves becuase it suits them best. Its sort of like a mental Stockholm Syndrome. I'm not going to pretned to understand the innermost workings of the human mind, especially since TEAMS of Drs. can't do that. Im aware that hers is a differnet sitaution and was not a suicide case, but the principle behind it here is the same.

Originally Posted by Sera13

About scoffing the kids, i wouldnt say thats what i feel.. exacitally.. its more of a "WTF ARE YOU STUPID... LOOK AT ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE GOING FOR YOU.. STOP BEING STUPID.. ILL HELP YOU.." type of thing..

but i feel obligated to offer help and any guidace and can give thats becuase i remeber what it was like to be in their position.. I was over wieght, i was constantly reminded of how fat and ugly i was however looking back i was never fat, just a little chubby, and anything more would have been an exageration and i have always had a pretty face and several other features however i could never see that i only saw fat and ugly as i had been told for years. I started highschool and had never made below a 98 on any school assignment in my life but every one still instisted on calling me stupid and a slacker that got into my head and at the end of freshman year i was still in all honors classes and such but barley pulling a 2.8 gpa sophmore year i had finally begin the healing process as you should say i was in all honors and AP classes and pulled my gpa to a 3.6 now i am faced with my final year of high school. I have 17 credits already and my junior year starts in 3 weeks i will be in all AP classes and then fluff classes to fill up my free credit spaces. then i will be starting college next fall. It seems as all the kid who were tormented and wanted to off themselves the most were often the ones to turn out best they grow up quicker and get rid of their "rose colored glasses" much quicker than most, In time to acctually make somthign of themselves.

So, was this a personal or social problem that you are struggling with? Were you yearning for social acceptance so much so, that you believe the badgering pecks of your peers just so that you felt as if at least they accepted something about you? Was it maybe, your inability to construct confidence within your own abilities in the face of anthing remotely challenging? Sounds rather harsh when I phrase the question that way right? Either way, it was your fault when approached from that direction. When you first read it, and be honest, what was your initial reaction. Did "YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IT FEELS" come across your mind? I could pick further and state that your use of "quicker", constant misspellings, starting a sentence with "but", lack of proper punctuation, and in general you wouldn't use the same word over three letters in the same sentence. Those examples warrant claims of low intelligence from your peers if you really are headed to AP classes. Those examples alone cause one to wonder if you are in fact above B level English.(its not an attack, just used it for a low blow example to stir emotion, I often make typing mistakes, but it does not mean I'm horrible at English, so don't take it wrong). I could go on to say that I too, am not stupid yet make gramtical errors, misspellings and that I've been falsely judged based upon those examples. I've been accused and ridculed of that even here. I'm sure you would then think, even for a moment, "Yes, but...", giving way to doubtful rebuttals of how your case differs from mine. You'd be right if you thought those things.

I've never been fat, or pudgy, chubby, overweight, portly, festively plump, obese, or anything remotely close. How then would I justifiably comfort a suicidal person, who is contemplating such actions over the peer based ridicule of their weight? I would have NO clue about what it was to be fat. Would I say "Well you're not fat", which inturn is likely to recieve "Then what am I?" How do I respond? Should I lie to benefit them? Pretned I understood, risking eventual exposre as the conversation went on? Should I have opened it up differently? Would the opening have any real bearing on the end? I'm sure the weight issue would surafce in the conversation at some point since its the root of the problem Are they mentally stable and receptive enough to have their thoughts diverted in the direction of encouragement? What kind of encouragement would I use?. It depends on the person and the situation as to how you handle the case.

Its noble to want to help everyone you come in contact with becuase you honestly believe you understand their pain or because you whole heartedly feel that everyone has a reason to live. Unfortunately, what you think and feel means nothing to a set mind. Sera, you can not help, and often will not help those unwilling of help. As the phrase goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink".

Originally Posted by Sera13

I disagree with this SOME people have been forced through situations that most will NEVER have to deal with. There are so many things many people have done that are true eye openers and often can fully understand the concepts of many of those things at a much younger age than i feel like it fair to them. Realty can be cruel.

Once again, you've reiterated the "case by case" argument. SOME, is a depentant word, where if it is not ALL of one thing or ALL of another, then the situation at hand requires the analytical processing of the stipulations that have turned ALL into SOME.. You are right though, atrocities such as rape and child molestation are a forced thing. It extremely unfortunate that some sick effing bastid, took it upon themselves to remove the option of an innocent aspect of life for someone else. Its one of my cases for the death penalty. The choice was removed invoulentarily from the victim, therefore the same choice will be invoulentarily removed for you. Cut and dry, should have thought of that earlier becuase at least the offender knew right from wrong. Now the victim is left questioning it for the rest of their natural effing life. Effing effers... Anyway, there are many things in life that are eye openers. Some of them good and some of them bad, but the degree to which they are held is in the perspective of the ones who see them, experience them and have to experience them. Everyone deals with things different, and we've agreed on that, but saying that things are never case by case, is stating that life is black and white. EVERYTHING is case by case. No one is a little bit pregnant (don't believe the EPT commercial), a person is not kind of dead, and cold blooded murder is not sometimes okay. For these example, yes - there is a definate balck and white, but to separate that black and white in search of that grey area, you must study it on a case by case basis. Terri Schavio was indeed, kind of dead. Early pregnancy is considered a "little bit pregnant" (ok, NOW belive the EPT commercial), and you can't know the murder was in cold blood until you investigate. This is my entire point. Stretchingyourself thin to save the world leads to an unrequited love of sorts...its depressing, factual and never changing simply becuase its a different case for each of us..

[Sera13]

i dont have time to read all that right now but i will read more and edit it later but for now i have to say

There is no special circumstance were suicide or helping some one in it is any way right. Period. In the case of people that have become in a veigstated state are not what i would consider suicide or murder either. The only reason they are alive is becuase machines humans have put them on force them to stay alive completely unaware of anything. If these machines did not exsist they would have died regaurdless..


Secondly.. No i never thought anything of the sort about how.. "you dont know how it feels" or anything like this you have completely missread me. About me, I wasnt stiving for social acceptance.. i never had to do that infact i enjoy less people i have "followers" if you will.. and very many of them who live on my every word. and i hate it. I help people becuase i hate to see anyone feel the way i, as well as so many others, have felt. I try to make people feel better becuase i am a good person.

about your comments on my spelling and poor grammer has alot to do with the high dosage of muscule relaxers i am currently on becuase of some what turned out to be severe back damage. also i will openly admit i have never been much of a speller. However I was in AP english last year and made the second highest grade in the class. I have been in a couple AP classes already. and i am in the gifted program in my school theres about 5 students in it out of over 1,500 in my school. my writing have been published in the past ive been payed money for them as well not to mention winning many contests, My intellegence is nothing to question.

Thats all my time.. so ill edit more in later.

[senate7377]

Sera? I said I the things about spelliong and grammar as an example to arouse emotion. It obviously worked, but was not intended to be mean or hurtful. Only in a way that ywould oput perspective to what I was saying. Re-read what I wrote very carefully. You are aware and self-conscious about it to some extent. Otherwise what would be the point in explaining it to me, a person who's life it has no bearing or conseqence?

I didn't say you WOULD say "you don't know how it feels", I said I'm sure you would or that you might.

ok...you're not grasping something in what I have painfully taken time in making sure that you would understand. I used Terry Schavio as an illustrative example for principle only, but my own grandfather as a literal example. I then went on to say that the CASE is different for a child or someone who really DOES have a reason.

I know you arent done reading it, but...at least read the whole thing and understand it prior to posting anything at all. I often go back and edit, but I've at least read and understood the article prior to my initialpost and usually done as an after thought..

EDIT:

You know what? ok... I'll explain the case issue like this and go along with your idea that you are right...

SOME people are born with a chemical imbalance that can lead to clinicla manic depression. Others, suffer through an experience that puts them in such a state. Not all of them recieve the same form of treatment for the same affliction because of HOW it comes about. You may medicate one, while the other simply counsel. Their treatment is CASE DEPENDANT. The theory here is also applied to suicide; where the elderly and suffering that have nothing in reality to survive for VS the child or young adult who feel the same way, but according to you, have reason to go on.

See also : Horses and water.

In thinking on it a bit more... I'd like to know how exactly one would prosecute a suicide "victim". At least they'd be dressed for court.

[Sera13]

yeah um.. im sorry about my last post it was only after simply glaces over some parts of your post i didnt really read much there for i was out of place and just made my self look pretty stupid however i will read your posts next time i get a chance and then see what i really have to say.. sorry for my mistakes

[senate7377]

Im not comiong down onyou Sera, its cool, just kind of saying that you may wanna read it before you post something so you don't look "hasty". That is all.

[Sera13]

Originally Posted by senate7377

Im not comiong down onyou Sera, its cool, just kind of saying that you may wanna read it before you post something so you don't look "hasty". That is all.

i completely understand and dont think your comming down on me, but your correct i really shoudl have atleast, you know, READ it before posting about it.. i acctually feel bad for doing somthing like that..

[Lightknight924]

This is a very shaky topic, though it may not ever be settled. Or could it be already settled? What I'm trying to say is that everyone has their reasons to commit suicide. Whether it's dpression or any other type of mental/physical desease. Or rejection or hate or whatever else reason you might have. Maybe you just want sympathy. Already has FFR discussed it. Nameing all the reasons I named in this post and more. You can't put it more out.This topic is hitting it's peak. It is getting old. I think this thread started in late May early June. That's all I have to say about this.

P.S. No, in my opinion helping in a suicide should not be charged as murder if the person had asked you to help them end their life. Nor should it be illegal to commit suicide. Therefor, if you commit suicide and it's illegal.....well then I don't think you should care since your well, dead. So yeah.

[Vamps]

There are so many opinions in this thread that i would LOVE to sit here and say "well thats wrong...u wouldnt know a thing".....and i'd LOVE to have a screaming match with some of the people that have posted in this thread. But as they are only posting their OPINIONS.....there is no point in any of that. I read the whole 9 pages before i said anything...and came to the conclusion that its a really monotonous thread! All you people who say "oh people with depression can talk themselves out of it and ur just attention seeking"....have obviously never really ATLEAST gotten to know someone who suffers with clinical depression! For those people, if you go to your local video store...I'm quite certain you will find a movie called "prozac nation". Not all people with depression are like this girl, but the movie gives a good insite on how a sufferer feels. If you cant find the movie...find the book and read it!
Somewhere in the thread, someone said something about "if your getting bashed by your mum/dad then call the cops"....how many times have you been bashed by a man twice your height and 3 times your weight....day in...day out...and had to watch him do the same thing to your mother? Calling the cops isnt always the easiest/best thing to do...logical...maybe...but best...not always....
Someone also said something about cutting=killing....not really. To kill yourself from simply cutting...you have to hit the right vein...and u have to have the guts to sit there and let yourself bleed to death. I was a cutter at one stage, and still...i cut myself when i go through really rough spots with my depression and everything....and if all you want to do is cut to feel the temporary relief...you know where not to cut! You're gonna have a really hard time killing yourself cutting the top side of your arm....not your wrist!

Originally Posted by russell35

suicide is for noobs who cant handle being owndizzled by russ in halo 2....which he will own u in...biyatch


oh i forgot...its also for emos......man i hate emos....and punk rockers.......hate em.....almost as much as i hate emos

you hate emos??? if you hate emos...that means you hate emotional people...which means you really musnt like that many people!! I mean...who here isnt...to some degree....emo? and as for suicide being for noobs....how does that work? noobs are people who are new to something...which means a noob to life would be an infant...infants dont commit suicide!
Just as a last note...there was some1 up there that mentioned having bipolar and manic depression....the 2 are one and the same...it simply means that you can be up one minute...and down the next....
Well thats all...hoping i didnt flame in there anywhere.....i tried to stick to fact...not opinion....

[-Skooter-]

Alright, I wasn't going to post in here. It's almost pointless. Everyone in this thread, is going to have learn to accept that people's opionions on suicide, are always going to be different. No one can ever agree on suicide, lets face it, it's mostly based on moral and personal thought.

I have been to a doctor, who has told me that I am bi-polar. However, I do not take medicine. It is my choice to not medicate myself for some bullshit the doctor has fed me, which I do not see in myself, and do not feel as though I need.

This is the great thing about life, you ultimately make the foundation of your beliefs. Depression is psychological, not clinical. Do not flame me, or quote me, attempting to express to me that I do not know what depression is, because I do, entirely, however, I have never and will never attempt to commit suicide, here's why: IT'S POINTLESS.

No one else in here obviously has the balls to be too blunt about it and say it. They fear it is going to hurt someone's feelings, who may be dealing with the issue. Or upset them greatly, but I've found, the best thing to do for people, is create realization. Feeling bad for them, is what they are searching for, simply because they desire the comfort, so I'm going to say it.

If you're going to kill yourself, you're an idiot, and a pussy. Suicide is in fact selfish, and shows that you do not consider yourself any better than your foe. Everyone has at least one friend, and damnit, one is enough. Just because you weren't captain of your cheerleading squad, or had 25 boyfrends your senior year, doesn't mean that you weren't cool to someone. I doubt HIGHLY that there is anyone on FFR who can honestly and whole heartedly say, that everyday they sit in there dark ass room, with no one who loves them, and no one to talk to. There's nothing to do, and you have no one who loves you. I call bullshit.

You have a computer, so you're not malnourished, as a matter of fact, to have a computer is to be privledged. On top of that, your parents are obviously paying for this stuff, so they care about you and you're forcing yourself to believe otherwise. GET THE FUCK OVER IT. No one is perfect, you have to accept it. You're never going to be able to mold anyone into the exact person that you want them to be, so you should be happy with what they are, and stop pretending like they're fucking Gumby. The thing about people who attempt Suicide is that they're not selfish in the concept of killing themselves, because they're only hurting themselves there, however, it is selfish of them to feel as though they constantly need and hold disregard to others.

Here's a newsflash: Suicide fixes nothing. No one's life is THAT bad. For example, if a killer is chasing you, and ultimately, minus the killer, you're life is a hunk of dong anyways, are you simply going to let him kill you? No. Why?? Because you don't want to die. Physical pain does not substitute for mental pain, and it is most definitely not going to solve the problem. It only creates another place for you to put a band aid.

Stop being stupid, and get the fuck over it. We're human, we have the ability to overcome everything.While it may hurt, someone out there is going through worse. Always. So feeling like you're living the worst possible life ever, is inconsiderate as well as wrong.

I hate to sound like an ass, or imply that I do not care about what happens to people, I much so do.I do however, also feel that you have a choice, and if that's the one you're willing to make then you're decision and evaluation skills aren't the best.

I'm not mean to hurt you, I'm mean to help you. Sometimes, nice people just don't get through.

[Vamps]

As much as i agree that everyone has some form of friend or relative that loves them...and that alot of people are privledged beyond their knowledge....there are some people out there that suffer with depression on such a sever scale that they cant see this for themselves....i went through that stage once....and i thought that everyone who i sat with at skool was just being friends with me because they felt sorry for me....then one day one of my friends...he's a really rather blunt person...kinda like you scooter....sat me down and gave me a massive talk about how completely idiotic i was being and that if i didnt wake up to myself that i really WASNT going to have any friends for myself....well...that sure woke me up! I dont suggest doing that to any of your friends if they suffer from depression....unless you know them well enough to know how they will take it...but sometimes a good talking to really helps wake a person up.....not cure their depression or anything even CLOSE....but it does help them start to see that maybe there are people who care enough to be honest with them.....

[Chocoborider29]

We as humans have so many rights. We have the right to eat, sleep talk...the list goes on and on. Among those rights is one that is lauded, and despised every day. Suicide. I mean, imagine if animals had the chance that we did! They'd all be extinct! But they don't. Nope. They have to ride that coaster allllll they way through. We can get off whenever we want! Nobody can force you to keep living. Suicide is sid to be illegal. Its only illegal when badly done.

But before anyone goes running up my pant leg to bite me in the crotch, consider this:
Without suicide, you're missing all of life's good and bad moments.
IF SUICIDE WAS USED BY EVERYONE WHO THOUGHT IT USEFUL, there would be no dates
no tv
no lazy days
no eat out resteraunts
there would be no more sex
no more I like him, or I like her
no more first lessons on a bike
no more swinging from a tree
no more sitting by your best friends on the beach
no more laying under the stars, or sitting on your roof, watching the sun come up
no more friday cruising
no more drinking
no more DDr
no more extra salt on your popcorn!
no more BEAUTY
no more DANCING IN THE RAIN
IF SUICIDE WAS USED BY EVERYONE WHO THOUGHT IT USEFUL, THERE WOULD BE NO FLOWERS
NO MORE SENSELESS ROCK BANDS!
NO MORE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN PEOPLE!
NO MORE FRIENDSHIPS!
NO MORE SKIPPING SCHOOL!
NO MORE FIRST KISSES!
IF SUICIDE WAS USED BY EVERYONE WHO THOUGHT IT USEFUL, PEOPLE WOULDN'T TOLERATE THE BAD DAYS THAT MAKE THE GOOD DAYS THE BEST!

[MalReynolds]

I think you're an idiot. Suicide is a window for some people that they just have to take because there are no other options.

Not everyone laudes suicide, so your list is just shitty. And you're an idiot. You didn't present any ideas in that post. Animals can't kill themselves? Just because you can't talk to them doesn't mean that they're not feeling. Dogs can be depressed. Did you know that? Often times, after surgery, if a dog is depressed it will chew it's stitching out so it will die. My old lady friend's dog knawed its stomach open. Why? Because "it wanted to get off the ride". Dogs are animals, ergo: all animals can suffer depression and suicide is an option for everything on the planet.

It's not a right, it's a choice.

I'm sorry, but... No, you're just pretty dumb.

Mal

[chocoborider30]

Originally Posted by Chocoborider29

IF SUICIDE WAS USED BY EVERYONE WHO THOUGHT IT USEFUL, PEOPLE WOULDN'T TOLERATE THE BAD DAYS THAT MAKE THE GOOD DAYS THE BEST!

This was my focus, not wether or not dogs commit suicide.
Other than that, you're right. Even saying I'm dumb. OMG AREN"T WE ALL PRETTY DAMN STUPID? You can call me dumb, but look at your past mishaps, and you'll see that YOU are pretty stupid as well.

[Vamps]

[quote="chocoborider30"]

Originally Posted by Chocoborider29

This was my focus, not wether or not dogs commit suicide.
Other than that, you're right. Even saying I'm dumb. OMG AREN"T WE ALL PRETTY DAMN STUPID? You can call me dumb, but look at your past mishaps, and you'll see that YOU are pretty stupid as well.

Uhhh....at least his posts have something USEFULL in them.....

That thing with the people tolerating the bad days that make the good days good....there are some people that suffer with depression on such a sever scale that they dont have ANY of these good days for months on end...therefor...they forget what it's like to have a good day....so why would they WANT to tolerate the bad days....as far as they know...there's nothing to look forward to!

Im trying as hard as i can to refrain from posting too much in they way of opinion in this thread...its a thread that really needs fact because opinion just creates too much conflict...but i am going to post an opinion...and that is that i think that instead of coming on here and posting the first thing that comes to your head...before you even think about it...you should think it through a few times...and make sure that what your posting is correct....i know we all make mistakes...i make tonnes myself...but i rekon that more fact and less spontanious arguments would make for a much calmer thread ^^

[esupin]

Originally Posted by -Skooter-

Depression is psychological, not clinical.

I agree with you there.

I think suicide is cowardly and selfish. I really don't care how bad your life is in the US, but there are millions of people in the world worse off than you. Take 75% of the people in Niger(You might have heard this on the news, but nost of you don't watch the news). They are experiencing a famine. Children are dying, and people have to eat their dead relatives to stay alive. Do they commit suicide? No.

Why? They've got the balls to stick it out. They have children, parents, and brothers and sisters who depend on them. Even if they don't have the will to live, they continue to battle for their loved ones. Mothers carry their children hundreds(no joke) of miles to reach feeding stations; they do not give up and kill themselves.

Originally Posted by Chocoborider29

Suicide is sid to be illegal. Its only illegal when badly done.

aka if they don't die

Originally Posted by Chocoborider29

Without suicide, you're missing all of life's good and bad moments.
IF SUICIDE WAS USED BY EVERYONE WHO THOUGHT IT USEFUL, there would be no...

If suicide was used by everyone who thought it was useful, of course there would be no tv, food, etc.
You'd be dead!

[Vamps]

Originally Posted by esupin

I agree with you there.

I think suicide is cowardly and selfish. I really don't care how bad your life is in the US, but there are millions of people in the world worse off than you. Take 75% of the people in Niger(You might have heard this on the news, but nost of you don't watch the news). They are experiencing a famine. Children are dying, and people have to eat their dead relatives to stay alive. Do they commit suicide? No.

Bull#$%^ its not clinical!!! If you call a chemical inbalance phsychological...you need some help! As i said before...it CAN be psychological....but there are so many cases of clinical depression...you're going to have a hard time proving otherwise!!

*side note*Did you ever think that maybe not all of us come from the US?

Get some facts would you

[esupin]

1. I know it can be physiological too, I just forgot to mention it. Sorry.

2. I wouldn't know about the living conditions in other countries, so I would not know how "good" life is there.

3. Good day, ma'am, then.

[Vamps]

Uhhh....u said it IS psycological!!!! Make up your mind would you?! And why dont you try learning about other countries?? You'll appreciate your life so much more when you find out how many children are dying in them. And just to go back onto your other post....poverty...just as sever as what you mentioned in Niger....is in your very own county..quite possibly your very own school! I live in Australia...and i know for a fact that a girl im very close friends with is considered below the poverty line...she has a house over her head...even access to the internet...but most of her "creature comforts" were supplied by friends of the family and charities...

back on topic...please make up your mind when you argue

and im a girl...not a guy...

[esupin]

1. I said it was physiological, too. Not psychological.

2. The famine(not poverty) is Niger cannot be compared to anything in the US. Their crops were wiped out by locusts, and a drought soon followed. People were forced to sell their cattle, which is probably the only valuable thing they owned. There is literally no food in some areas. This is not the same as wandering around homeless, staring through the windowpane of McDonald's.

[Vamps]

Famine is linked to poverty...and there is literally no food in some places in America, Australia, Asia and Europe....There are people in these countries that have just as much food and resources and the people in Niger....you're blind not to be able to see that....but this is completely irrelevent to the topic!!!