Help with Casual-Conversational Skills

[Poison-]

My suggestion:

Don't listen to anyone telling you to try alcohol.

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

I have never drank alcohol (or smoked) in my life and I never plan to drink or smoke.

*edit* By the way, what exactly marks a conversation as over, and how can you tell the other person is ready to end the conversation?

[Arch0wl]

I strongly disagree with the "don't do alcohol" thing, for several reasons:

1. Alcohol lowers your inhibitions

2. You will not know what you are like with lowered inhibitions without alcohol.

3. While you may not know what you *really* want since depressants like alcohol give you a mild euphoria, you will at least have an idea of what you're like with your guard down.

4. You will probably be more confident while drunk.

5. You can channel this state and emulate this behavior while sober.

6. And actually, in general you can retain what it's like to feel uninhibited while sober.

The more you drink, too, the more you get a better idea of what you're like when drunk and the more you can force yourself into that state if you need impromptu bursts of confidence or deeper analysis of your motivations.

This applies to nearly all drugs, by the way, but especially alcohol.

[Dynam0]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

2. You will not know what you are like with lowered inhibitions without alcohol.

Not true at all. I've become less inhibited as I grew older and this isn't from alcohol, just growing up and getting a better understanding of myself through life experience. I drank my face off through university and all it ever did was give me false pretenses to say/do whatever I wanted because I was 'drunk hurr hurr'.

Emulating a drunken state to become less inhibited sounds pretentious in and of itself so I would stay away from that unless you're okay with being someone you're not.

The suggestions from page 1 are a good starting point imo:

1. Find a close friend who can help you with the social cues/anatomy of a conversation.

2. Get involved and participate in social activities. Drinking is absolutely not a requisite, consider it a social lubricant for when you've mastered social cues and holding a conversation with close friends and want to converse with less familiar people.

[benguino]

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl

*edit* By the way, what exactly marks a conversation as over, and how can you tell the other person is ready to end the conversation?

I don't know if I'm the best person to give advice but from what I find, conversations are usually explicitly ended by one of the two people in the conversation, depending on who wants to "get out" of the conversation first (either for an actual reason like having to go somewhere or not being able to think of anything else to say).

If the other person starts to end the conversation (i.e. "It was nice talking to you[...]" or "Well, I better get going[...]") then follow up with something that brings to conversation to a nice close and ending with a "bye!" or some other exclamation is the best way for both people to agree the conversation has ended.

Now if you are the one that wants to end the conversation, then start hinting to the person that you want to end the conversation (such as using the statements above). Assuming the person is socially inclined enough, the person will follow up naturally.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl

what exactly marks a conversation as over, and how can you tell the other person is ready to end the conversation?

They're often verbal cues, and common endings to conversations such as "talk to you later!", "sounds good", and so on. Sometimes they're accompanied by visual cues such as a slight nodding to the head. But try to think about the discussion at hand; if it seems like the number of topics to talk about has been exhausted, try to find a nice place to end it, or try to see if the other person will end it. It's entirely context-dependent.

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

I see; so it's mostly just verbal cues. The problem I sometimes have though is when I'm trying to keep the conversation going and the other person is trying to be nice and is probably hoping I'll end the conversation.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

Emulating a drunken state to become less inhibited sounds pretentious in and of itself so I would stay away from that unless you're okay with being someone you're not.

It's not emulating drunkenness, but rather the way you'd feel while drunk. And I mean, that's pretty much emotional regulation 101. Actors do that sort of thing all the time: think about a particular state you're in and what you feel like during that state so you can evoke that set of emotions when you need to.

[justin_ator]

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl

The problem I sometimes have though is when I'm trying to keep the conversation going and the other person is trying to be nice and is probably hoping I'll end the conversation.

This can be a hard one to deal with, from either side of the fence.

I find it very hard to cut conversations 'short' even when I feel like the conversation has long since been dead and I have no interest in continuing it.

I'd be curious to know what kind of socially acceptable 'halfway point' could be met where neither side would really have to worry about stepping on the others' toes.

[Dynam0]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

It's not emulating drunkenness, but rather the way you'd feel while drunk. And I mean, that's pretty much emotional regulation 101. Actors do that sort of thing all the time: think about a particular state you're in and what you feel like during that state so you can evoke that set of emotions when you need to.

I meant the state of mind while drunk yes.

Either way, you just admitted here that this technique is reminiscent of acting which I would hardly consider useful. I would much rather learn to socialize well as myself than to act like someone I'm not. However, I'm extremely pragmatic and tend to agree with people even when I personally might have differing views; unless they're really good friends and I'm okay with butting heads with them on things. I guess you do need to be a bit of a chameleon at times in social settings so the idea of emotional regulation seems alright I suppose.

[Arch0wl]

Yes, it's a technique that actors use, but that doesn't mean it's pretending. It's not like you're faking an emotional state by making yourself feel that way, because if you're actually feeling an emotion you're not faking that state. If you can make yourself feel an emotional state, that is your emotional state; you're replacing one with another. Unlike the physical world, which is pretty stable in terms of what is and what isn't, your internal world is malleable and you don't have a set of "true" emotions. I can make myself feel whatever I want and that becomes my emotional state.

[Calcium Deposit]

I secretly suspect a person of being an alien or undercover cop if they refuse offered alcohol.

[Syhto]

lol cavernio *gets shot*

[Choofers]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Maybe you should try drinking alcohol.

That was actually kinda serious. Alcohol is known to make social awkwardness melt away. There's a reason parties and blind dates often are alcohol-centric, while smaller get-togethers with close friends don't have that stereotype attached. Heck, bars exist for that reason. I know that that doesn't really help reading cues and all, but it might make conversation more enjoyable anyways.

This isn't much help, but I think perhaps the best thing would be for you to find specific people who you feel that you can get along with, people who will naturally help you, kinda like Devonin said. If you're really as bad as you say you are, you don't want subtle hints that could be construed multiple different ways. You need something solid. Perhaps your roomates could help you with this, since you're going to have to interact with them while you live in the same space. If you trust them enough, you could simply tell them one day that you're bad at reading social cues, and you want them to blatantly let you know when, for example, a conversation is over, or if you're being to weird with something. If I were one of your roommates, I'd certainly feel less awkward just after having that conversation with you, as weird as it would be, and it would also make me feel alright about being blunt with you in the future. I suspect social niceties and worries about hurting your feelings make things more awkward than they need to be, even with your lack of skills.

As a former alcoholic, I will say this: Don't drink if you don't want to drink.

[Jimmymi1]

Confidence and the ability to controll your confidence is key to socializing imo.

[Cavernio]

Just how much effort do you put into social interaction archowl? Jeebuz, that's ridiculous.
I suppose I used to be a lot better at social interaction when I bothered about it, but it's really, really tiring to do what you're saying. It's a ludicrous amount of effort, and I can't imagine doing that 8 hours a day for work or something.
'True' emotions are what you experience when you stop doing that. Yeah yeah, we all do that to some extent, (the moment you think ABOUT something, you are supposed to have emotions regarding that, and thoughts are constantly changing often within our control) but to do so at the drop of a hat and to choose exactly what it is, whenever it could help some situation? I think you're in a very small minority.
Anyways, what he says still holds merit for someone struggling to be properly social. Unfortunately, the time honored 'be yourself' isn't what so many people follow. Even if they tout that they do, more often than not in most social situations they'll act according to how they should, to some extent, not according to what they want to do. The cut-off in terms of socialness or closeness for when someone will do this varies.


People giving advice about conversations ending with things like 'catch you later' or what have you, that's just not a good enough cue. Lots of conversations, small ones especially, don't end with any particular sentence. Like if your roommate comes into the kitchen while you're cooking supper and says something like 'Oooh, what's that? It smells good!', and you answer, and they reply, 'I'm going to have to try that one day' or 'My mom used to make that' etc, they might simply go about their business afterwards, leaving the kitchen without another word. In such a scenario, the expectation from you, (the chef), would be to continue what you're doing, chopping something or whatever while they're talking, and let your roommate wander off on their own accord. If instead you did something like drop all that you're doing to try and be attentive during this snippet of conversation, vaguely look at your roommate because that's what you've been told to do, and then sit there smiling, looking at their eyebrows, and wait for them to say some sort of 'bye', it'll come off as super odd. In this scenario, since your roommate started the conversation, it's more or less their discretion to end the conversation, especially because it's so small. Secondly, because it's such a small, pretty insignificant discussion, it might just be weird for them to give it some sort of finality.

In fact, it's generally perfectly acceptable to continue working or doing a task if you're in the middle of one when a conversation starts. And it's still acceptable to work even through a more lengthy, in-depth conversation, if you want to. Of course, this might make someone else think that you don't want to talk when you do, so if you DO want to have the conversation, it's not wrong to be attentive. Alternatively, if someone walks in and says something emotionally significant to them (eg: someone died, they just broke up with someone, they just failed a course, etc.) or just seem to be emotionally distraught even if you don't know why yet, THAT'S when it's necessary to look attentive, look at them, and not just keep on working. Of course, working while conversing is often only done when it's possible to. If you're studying and they're talking, that's a no-no because most (all?) people can't actually do both at the exact same time.

[Arch0wl]

@cavernio: You learn to get pretty efficient at it. You'd only do it for select occasions and not "8 hours a day." (Though if you're working a service industry job, you will be doing it for most of your shift. I felt like I was constantly having to do that when I last waited tables.) Also, I hate the idea of being a slave to your default genetic reactions to things, which is what the idea of often implies. Hell, the very idea of modifying your genetics is one I support wholeheartedly. (Related: http://cognitivephilosophy.net/consc...-i-not-myself/)

I was actually thinking about this thread in the car. I recorded some things that aren't easily communicated through text. I'll post it later.

[Reincarnate]

The types of "lowered inhibitions" I experience when I've had alcohol are totally different than those I experience when I'm "feeling extremely confident," so I don't agree with that point much.

I used to experiment a bit in college with alcohol, thinking that it'd make me less shy / more sociable, since I always felt anxious in social situations. It didn't help me much at all. By the time I had consumed enough alcohol to no longer be socially anxious, I was a drunk asshole who said and did stupid shit. So alcohol (at least for me) was useless as a social lubricant.

[MracY]

Alcohol doesn't lower social inhibition directly. It inhibits the functioning of your brain.
Inhibited brain function will just alter your personality as if you were less self-conscious and intelligent. It will not be an aid to see how you would act as if you had confidence to speak, if that's the problem you are speaking of.

Although I don't think it's worth pursuing any kind of conversation that requires you to dumb down yourself to keep the conversation partner entertained.

I also don't think it's worth pursuing skills to have fake conversations. Acting like you're not yourself in conversations also makes communication very shallow.

[benguino]

A question for arch:
Are you still easily able to maintain some sense of identity given your habit of catering your actions and manipulating your emotions towards each specific person and situation you encounter? Do you have some type of overall personality traits that show regardless of who you are talking to?

Also, what is wrong with your genetic reactions to things? This seems to imply that you don't trust your genetic or default emotions when it comes to things? If anything, I think trying to cater your reactions and emotions just for the sake of maximizing your social capital just makes you a slave to society in general.