05-25-2008, 01:50 AM | #21 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Welcome to Critical Thinking. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume perhaps that your first language isn't English? Not to be too critical or anything, but the CT forum requires a certain degree of articulation and clarity to allow useful discussion to take place, and I'm finding it quite hard to decode what you're actually saying. Perhaps putting a little more effort into spelling and punctuation would help you make your points more clearly?
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06-6-2008, 10:58 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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First, I am from Eastern. In Indonesia for exactly. I am understand why is hard for you/or other for understand, but the Debating finding the truth about critical thinking-religion for exactly ... is teaching and learn knowledge to think and to be spiritual, thats why is HARD to be Understand like way we undertand minds fruits like science and technology, they need Times for gain knowledge. Religion Knowledge are much have like this. I want to share what East who have Richness in Spiritual and Intuitive Kniowledge for western like or other or @thread starter. I want you,All know... dont jump conclusion too fast....without testing your believing with others... There are many diversity persons,groups,and others in east which west dont have. If you want learn the truth, you must believe, REligion Teach you,.. To make you EASIER in Life not Heavier.. I think the problem not in a certain degree of articulation and clarity to allow useful discussion to take place, but in "Construction in Minds and Selfes/Soul" Learning Religion also about Growing your Construction Minds and Soul. Fail about it means someone minds and soul is heading wrong direction. but i am sorry if i share the knowledge that other 'Not ready" for it. I will be careful for now and try to convert in the languange others can think and understand about it. for @thread starter... this world and wider than you think, dont curse your life and other life and value.. |
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06-6-2008, 11:32 PM | #23 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
I don't have much time for the forums, this is my first post in almost a month.
Crescent, I did not say I hate life or anything so specific and easy. I am arguing that humans are fundamentally deleterious. I really do not want to bring religion into this topic as it cannot be used as a standalone argument that is not deemed dubious by nonbelievers, that is to say, religion isn't valid to be used as a statement. About misanthropy, I'll have to refresh my mind for a bit before I can continue where I left off, Devonin. I'm not finished with morality yet. |
06-7-2008, 12:02 AM | #24 | |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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06-7-2008, 12:46 AM | #25 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Misanthropy can be considered in more ways than one as its source may vary from person to person. I have a particular issue with the cause of your own misanthropy: a general distaste for what you consider to be the negative side of 'human nature.'
I'm going to go out on a limb and just tell you all I'm an existentialist and I follow Sartrean Existentialism to the dot. That said, I do not believe there is such a thing as the inherently good or the inherently evil. Existence precedes essence thus our choices mold who we and our society become, and the meaning of our lives as individuals and a community. It is our duty as humans beings - we are essentially condemned - to choose our values and morals for ourselves and our fellow man in an attempt to create a more stable and prosperous society. I can understand why one would be a misanthropist under this scheme as even I have lost faith in most people. However, that doesn't allow you to disregard your duty to humanity or to be discouraged by your fellow man's faults. You're using misanthropy as an escape from a problem that cannot be easily solved. It's easier to say that a man is born a coward, it makes for an excellent excuse for his otherwise unacceptable cowardice. People start having issues when they consider they are an actual part of the problem. It's harder to accept you are a coward because you chose to be one. I'm just surprised you've accepted to eliminate yourself along with the rest of humanity in fear of having your beliefs debunked. Do you not feel you have a sense of responsibility towards your fellow human being? To fix this so-called mess? If not, you're just another part of the problem. I just commend you to acknowledge that you, as your fellow man, the sole reason for your misanthropy, chose to be as you are. Oh, the irony. Last edited by FictionJunction; 06-7-2008 at 01:03 AM.. Reason: whoops, hehe |
06-7-2008, 12:52 AM | #26 | ||
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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You Cannot Defy/Deny into this topic without study it first,rethink first.. . You Never Found the True Answer as long as seek outside the religion. If you still reject for later,it up to you, but you Cannot Reject without strong arguent minds and soul and defeat religionist's arguments and explanation. I have encountered so many rejections, but NONE of them defeat ours arguments and explanation... they are confuse, great DOUBTS..like in phil collins songs : they just dont TRUST WHAT THEY CANNOT EXPLAIN.' the question for now : why not study religion from religionist explaining who understand it first? i am understand you see the religion not valid as statement...for now. our existences...for Religionist.. is give Right Explanations about religion with best acceptance for recipients...for all others especially nonbelievers. for moderator, please dont kick me out from this topic/forum. if you all wants to see The CRITICAL THINKING From Religionst side.. @TS I see ... you see human is deleterious... now why question? do you know why human is deleterious...? I am sure you dont know the answer if humans is such dirties,more beast than animal..... is THERE The Way to Purify them?? the answer... there is a way, even it exceed the expectations. because its not only purify but also bring Light from Heaven into earth in the Name of God. of course it needs process that can turned human bestiality inside into right personality inside that God wants to bring out the humans from their darkness hell inside into HIS LIght Protection Gentleness Safetyness by Construct their own personality from His Signs in Chronicle... i am understand why religion is so hard to be understand by rational minds trapped in five senses and brains as their faith..that they..including me destroyed my own souls sellves and minds if i have faith to it. but when i study religion step by step ...intuitively not rationally... I can deduction religion is some simple term explanations. it can analyze step by step.. but remember..IT ONLY DEDUCTION not true learning religion, because religion is about construct minds and souls not study as minds fruits like study science and technology... for simple explanation, your minds and soul is growing when you FOUND right knowledge about secrets life in religion by your own Creativity. Nobody can teach religion...even prophet cannot teach it directly,they only can show the Journey.... students in The Journey that they must Walk within that Found the ANswer at the end...because only God can do/teach it. If you/other reject it (after they accept the lessons and explanation who will bring the right path) and still walk the path, They bring themselves into their own destruction at the end of journey.. so, who will blame for it? their ownself or they blame God/other?? Quote:
use intiuitive,symbolic languange to bring diversity reality inside the words, and try to understand within the times.. Last edited by rising crescent; 06-7-2008 at 01:43 AM.. Reason: editing |
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06-7-2008, 12:59 AM | #27 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Oh god, it's like Coberst with worse spelling and grammar.
YOU HAVE TO MAKE SENSE IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. You aren't being metaphorical, you aren't being symbolic, you aren't being intuitive, you're using poor english and failing to communicate properly, there is a VERY key and important difference there. |
06-7-2008, 01:30 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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It is not easy to bring knowledge within religion in general languange, because the problems actually not in spelling and grammar, but ideas within the words like I said, religion is about construction minds and selves, fail to understand ..Prove the minds in mess "constructions and head wrong directions" religion is like Windows as operation inteligence system which operate the body is centralized in brain as Artificial inteligence constructed by cells build up from essence foods brings out from lands. you are good debater, i still dont know your minds constructions, but from your direct critics on me, show little to me in order to undertsand,.. First ZERO YOUR MINDS... and Learn NEw Minds Construction Developing form The Signs originate from Holy Book in times cannot determined.... like : Light Shine in Darkness.. but darkness cannot understand it... - as long in darkness Last edited by rising crescent; 06-7-2008 at 01:35 AM.. |
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06-7-2008, 01:38 AM | #29 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Let's try this one more time: The problem IS in spelling and grammar because you are bad at both of them, and it makes trying to read what you want to say really annoying and difficult.
You can easily discuss religion in general language, we've done it many times on this forum and will do so many times more. You'll make an actual effort to "use general language" like the rules of the forum dictate you have to or you'll just have to take a break from posting here until you manage to figure out a way to do it. " Learn NEw Minds Construction Developing form The Signs originate from Holy Book in times cannot determined" for example is a statement that simply makes no actual sense as a sentence in English. These are the kinds of things you need to correct. |
06-7-2008, 01:40 AM | #30 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
What is your first language? Depending on what it is, I may be able to help.
Actually, this looks very similar to Shiki's English, except Shiki's conversation had nothing to do with religion. Same translator, I guess. From the amount of time he/she is taking to post, I can tell that he's/she's using a very unreliable and inefficient translator... =/ I would love to stay, but I need to go now... =_= wasted post on my part.
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06-7-2008, 02:01 AM | #31 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
It's not even the poor translation of their posts that is causing the problem. Their own misinterpretations of what I think are pretty clear statements of what our issues are, only add to the problem.
Like, they keep saying things such as "i am understand you see the religion not valid as statement...for now." which simply miss the point entirely. Nobody is dismissing anything you say simply because it is religious, nobody is suggesting the religious view is invalid. The -content- of your posts is completely not the issue here, it's the format entirely. |
06-8-2008, 09:07 PM | #32 | ||
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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Secondly, I disagree with your existentialism because you are saying that individual choices and arbitrary decisions by all humans result in the betterment of the world. This is contradictory because not everyone has the same criteria of change and wishes that the world changes differently. You are generalizing and subjecting the human population under the assumption that we will all wish for good and our "personal" decisions will help build a better world. An individual cannot mold society. It is by a union or large scale movement that revolutionizes the world for the better. Quote:
Escape? No, I'm more like stating the obvious. There is no remedy to the problem of human nature. As long as humans have preference and thought, there will always be the myriads of problems that inundate society. (Racism, discrimination, sexism, etc.) Do I feel the responsibility? What responsibility? We cannot transcend our nature. Hence there is no such thing as the cowardance you speak of nor the option to change and "fix" things. Irony? Indeed. |
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06-9-2008, 11:17 PM | #33 | ||||||
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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always try to explain 'what cannot explained in rational minds-- the minds who reject spirituality accesing. how can you try to understand when you 'always' reject at same time? you cannot Understand whileyou alway depend and have faith on that 'false construction minds' Quote:
Holy book is not just law in life,but also knowledge to think,knowledge to shape WHo you are on your own free will with using The Signs of God from Holy Book. it cannot used as filling the holesin yourmindsbasedon your own construction,but Change entirely your mind.MAybe it will make you fear,same with all other humans. but you,all ...including me must Trust GOD who Himself Teach it for you. so,the problem is within yourself.as long as you always use your present construction minds and soul..with always conflict with God true knowledge to understand Him...you never understand Him like must be to understand. this is big difference between how try to understand and build science and technology WITH how try tounderstand secret of religion... Quote:
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06-9-2008, 11:26 PM | #34 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Sorry, but the best way to learn English is to take at least a full-year course of English class from a certified teacher. Online translators fail, and English isn't an exception.
Quite frankly, we won't understand your point without explaining it in English. =/ There is no point in arguing with devonin by restating your points concerning humans and misanthropy. devonin is merely saying that you aren't writing proper English, which completely nullifies everything you are trying to say.
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06-9-2008, 11:50 PM | #35 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
That didn't sound sexist at all...
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06-10-2008, 11:31 AM | #36 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
I believe a "Lol" would be appropriate here.
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06-10-2008, 12:06 PM | #37 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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06-10-2008, 12:26 PM | #38 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
Am I the only one who actually can understand what he is saying?
The sentence structure is foreign to English, true, but it's still not that difficult to understand what he means, in my opinion. I do realize that correct spelling/grammar are requirements for posting on this forum though. |
06-10-2008, 12:36 PM | #39 | ||||||
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
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The individualistic nature of existentialism lies only within the concept of 'existence precedes essence.' We are born an empty canvas and are the ones who define the meaning of our lives. My BFF Sartre takes it to a whole new level. Read a little: Quote:
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To claim that human beings are held back by 'human nature' is the same as excusing a coward for his actions because he was born a coward. It's just easier when you deem faults to be inherent features rather than the errors in judgment they truly are. Quote:
Nihilists and misanthropists are better of committing suicide. I mean, it's what they want and what we want. The irony of your misanthropy is that you'd actually kill yourself but only under the condition you were assured everyone else would die as well. You wouldn't be able to acknowledge it once you're dead anyway. Last edited by FictionJunction; 06-10-2008 at 12:41 PM.. |
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06-10-2008, 03:00 PM | #40 |
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Re: Misanthropy. "Are humans fundamentally good or evil?"
I don't konw if another, different point of view would be much appreciated in this topic, but here goes. Personally I think there is a big difference between disliking humanity in a general sense and disliking all humans. I hate humanity because of all of the problems it has caused to the environment, other humans, and other animals, but that doesn't mean I hate every human; far from it, I like many people who think for themselves and act helpful or friendly towards others. So my position is that I agree with misanthropy - humans viewed as a whole have a fundamental tendency to create problems rather than resolve them - but I do not at all want to see humanity destroyed. If you have a shelf of books and most of them are crumbling from age, you don't have to throw away them all, if you can find a way to maintain or isolate the good ones.
Before you say I'm just acting how society would want, though, my system of morality is different and more open to debate than society's is. My fundamentals are a set of goals, priorities if you will, which I think all actions should go towards accomplishing. For example, for me I value my own survival/happiness, then preservation (of other species, of culture and society, of the environment), then others' survival/happiness as the main ones for me. Instead of just calling everything good or evil, for me every action operates on a continuum where some actions are better than others, depending of course on whose perspective you look at it from. There isn't really a sharp line dividing good and evil, but you could call things which clearly go towards your goals good and things which clearly go against them evil. Nothing is absolutely good or evil. How does this apply to the "humanity is evil" question? There are definitely people who go against preservation, and there are also people who go towards it. It's entirely probable that there are more people who act to preserve than act to destroy - but the reality is that destruction has far greater impacts. It might take thousands of men to construct a building but only a few to make it collapse; it takes thousands of years to grow a rainforest but it can be cut down in a matter of decades. In every endeavor you will always hear about proportionally more of the people who destroy and hurt, because they are the most interesting and have the largest effects. I really do think that it is possible to get rid of humanity's great destroyers (some of whom have millions of followers, unfortunately) in the same way that it is possible to ban all known cheaters from an FFR tournament. In my view hating humanity because of being evil is similar to hating the FFR community because of cheating; although it makes sense as a belief, it doesn't authorize wholescale destruction. |
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