Black Racists

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by gnr61

I believe that affirmative action, while having no major benefit to the whole of fixing the educational system, is vital to providing what equality can be had to individuals. Just because it is abused (just like welfare), does that mean we should deny the right to education to those who truly need it? Why should someone (of ANY race) not be able to get an education because someone else took advantage of it? For that matter, why should welfare be gotten rid of and allow people to starve who truly need help and want to use the system correctly?

The trick is making it something that is difficult to take advantage of. Affirmative action should not be based on race, but on an individual basis.

I mean, I don't think affirmative action is that big of a problem. I'm a protestant raised middle-class white kid with "good, but not great" grades and I managed to get into Berkeley, UCLA, UCI, and UCSD. I'm just against the idea of government supported racism.

And let us not forget how much financial aid and scholarships are available there is for underprivileged students. It's out there, you just have to look for it.

As for welfare, I am against it. I think it should only be for those individuals who are incapable of working physically. All able bodied people should instead be put in government funded work programs that benefit the city and train individuals vocational skills while they build up their resumes.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

The trick is making it something that is difficult to take advantage of. Affirmative action should not be based on race, but on an individual basis.

I mean, I don't think affirmative action is that big of a problem. I'm a protestant raised middle-class white kid with "good, but not great" grades and I managed to get into Berkeley, UCLA, UCI, and UCSD. I'm just against the idea of government supported racism.

"Affirmative Action, also known as positive/reverse discrimination refers to concrete steps that are taken to promote access to education or employment aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group; typically people of color or women. Motivation for Affirmative Action policies is to redress the effects of past discrimination and to encourage public institutions such as Universities, Hospitals and Police forces to be more representative of the population."

The entire concept is inherantly racially based. If you want a non-racially based system, then affirmative action needs to be scrapped entirely and replaced with something else.

I think my problem with the idea is that it is actually a band-aid -for- a band-aid, and thus doubly a terrible idea. The only reason there is an argument for affirmative action is because these communities are poverty stricken and have no access to suitable education, and thus are simply not able to attain entry into these schools and jobs on their own merit. Affirmative action is being used as a band-aid for the ****ty education system, and incredibly ineffective reforms trying to deal with poverty (Almost all of which are band-aid solutions themselves)

And let us not forget how much financial aid and scholarships are available there is for underprivileged students. It's out there, you just have to look for it.

It has been my experience that it is just as (if not more) discriminatory than the affirmative action programs. I've found a grand total of 3 (in 4 years) scholarships/burseries that I could actually qualify for as a white, christian male. Were I but a member of a visible minority, the number would increase by orders of magnitude, were I but a woman (of which there are -more- in the world than men) the number would increase by orders of magnitude.

As for welfare, I am against it. I think it should only be for those individuals who are incapable of working physically. All able bodied people should instead be put in government funded work programs that benefit the city and train individuals vocational skills while they build up their resumes.

http://www.socialpolicy.ca/cush/m3/bwkfare1.html has a nice bit of information about workfare programs, and their general tendency to utterly not work.

[jewpinthethird]

I know that workfare ain't going to fix everything, and I didn't realize that it was largely involuntary. Isn't making someone work against his or her will essentially slavery?

The problem is, right now, the welfare system ain't working to great and honestly, I don't like the idea of taking money from those who work and giving it to those who don't, given that they are able-bodied.

I don't understand why private companies can't work with the government to provide jobs for those who want or need jobs. Such as a tax-break incentive for hiring individuals on welfare or something. The person would be a regular employee and receive employee benefits...you know, like a regular job and they would cease to receive money from the government when they start receiving their pay check.

Now, I'm just pulling this out of my ass right now and I know the solution won't be that easy.

Another thing that I think would make a world of difference would be a mass transit that doesn't suck ass in areas where there are high populations of unemployed individuals...because what good is having a job if you can't get to it?

[Kilroy_x]

The problem isn't necessarily unemployment. If employment was the only important thing we could easily give people jobs digging holes and filling them back up, or jumping in place, or any other number of useless tasks. The problem is that centuries of bad economic policy have created a situation where the cost of adopting a solution mostly in terms of shot term social outcome would extremely high.

Jewpin, policies similar to what you're suggesting are already in place. They only serve to keep people in poverty. The problem is, as soon as a welfare recipient earns more than a certain amount of money from work, they lose well more than what they gain from their own work in financial aid. This effectively makes it more beneficial for them to remain below the poverty line.

[devonin]

To put it in concrete terms, as this is an issue with welfare that I've debated more than a few times:

Someome is unemployed, and on welfare. the government has decided that the amount of support you need to live is 22,000/year (Which I believe is in fact the current "poverty" level for a single mother with one child)

You get a job, minimum wage, for 20 hours a week. You are now making just under 9,000 dollars a year, and are (because you are employed) now exempt from recieveing welfare, and are well below the poverty line.

In such a case it is -far- to your benefit to simply try to stay on welfare as long as you can, because you just flat out make more money and are better off.

if Welfare could be modified, so that instead of a flat relief payment, it was instead a subsidy, many of the problems would go away.

You are getting 21,000 and get a 10,000/year job? instead of cutting you off, welfare now pays you 11,000, thus keeping you at the 21,000 you need to support yourself and your child.

Now you have a job -and- are making enough to live on, so you can keep your job, get some training, get some experience, get some promotions, and then soon, you're working full time, and a slightly higher wage, and now you are above the minimum poverty level, can safely come off welfare, and set about supporting yourself.

[das1ngerplayer]

Blacks don't deserve any extra beenfits that whites don't. We are all people, blacks could be just a good off and most whites if they were to actually try and get jobs, stop living off the government, and these useless organizations weren't around to "help" them.

I'm not rascist but I'm completely against organizations that only help blacks. Yes there are still whites who are rascist but remember, there are plenty of blacks who are also rascist. All the organizations who try and help blacks are no good, they usually cause more harm than good.

[Kilroy_x]

More white people are on welfare than any other race.

[devonin]

Careful Kilroy, you can't challenge too many of someone's assumptions with fact all at once. Every good right-winger knows that when Whites are out of work, it is because all of those immigrants are taking up the jobs by being willing to work for cheaper under the table.

I mean, he is correct that blacks don't inherantly deserve benefits over and above other people simply because of their ethnicity, but I think he is looking at attempts to equalise as attempts to make superior, which is foolish, since the actual implications of affirmative action and similar programs are quite the opposite.

[Kilroy_x]

Right. Welfare is the surest way to make sure someone remains in poverty.

[devonin]

And I agree completely with that assessment given how welfare curently functions.

[das1ngerplayer]

Oh I completely agree there are more whites than blacks on welfare, the thing is, is that the actual percentage of each race on welface is different. There is a higher percentage of blacks on welfare than whites since there are many more whites in America.

[Kilroy_x]

Sure, but that pattern can be seen in multiple manifestations which underly the greater problem. It isn't poor character on the part of the larger portion of black individuals which is causative of such things, although poor character in some sense may arise from the cause. Rather, it's woeful inequities caused by bad government economic policy and the continued manifestations of racism and race consciousness that are to blame. We can see the effects of social and economic phenomenon quite clearly, for instance, between the behaviors of residents of Hong Kong and residents of China, even though they share pretty much the same ancestry. Similarly, the differences in climate between North and South Korea demonstrate that it's external social pressures which primarily shape and define the behaviors of individuals, not any race based characteristics of character, as these don't exist.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by das1ngerplayer

Blacks don't deserve any extra beenfits that whites don't. We are all people, blacks could be just a good off and most whites if they were to actually try and get jobs, stop living off the government, and these useless organizations weren't around to "help" them.

I'm not rascist but I'm completely against organizations that only help blacks. Yes there are still whites who are rascist but remember, there are plenty of blacks who are also rascist. All the organizations who try and help blacks are no good, they usually cause more harm than good.

Actually, there is plenty of covert racism in our society, which basically means, between two equally equipped workers, one black and one white, most employers will choose the white. It is harder for a black to get hired than a white. It's pretty much harder for blacks all-around, due to covert (and occasionally overt) racism.

Also, just a note, but you're bugging me with your spelling. It's racism, not rascism.

[Coca Cola]

Black Racists Are Just Like Any Other Racists

What The Hell Is Wrong With You People?

[devonin]

1) Did we say they weren't?
2) Do you need to capitalize the first letter of every word?
3) Nothing is wrong with us, thanks, we just like intelligent meaningful discourse.

[Coca Cola]

Originally Posted by devonin

1) Did we say they weren't?
2) Do you need to capitalize the first letter of every word?
3) Nothing is wrong with us, thanks, we just like intelligent meaningful discourse.

1) I like to start my own conversation
2) Yes
3) who doesnt?

[devonin]

If you want to start your own -discussion- there is a perfectly handy "new thread" functionality supported by this forum. If you want to post inside an existing discussion, the rules oblige you to contribute to the discussion at hand.

[Coca Cola]

I'm afraid my thread will be bad.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Then you really have no choice, but to keep your thoughts to yourself then now do you? As for where this topic is going, Kilroy_X suggested that on the issue of welfare,"bad government economic policy and the continued manifestations of racism and race consciousness that are to blame." What do you guys think would be a good solution to this problem?

[Aa_Doodaa]

Originally Posted by fido123

SUMMARY: Why are there so many organizations who only support black people and no one else?

You have to remember, though it probably was before our lifetimes, the whole Civil Rights Movement and stuff like that was not long ago at all. Black people are still looked down upon in many places, and only time can erase ethnic grudges as such. There will probably be more organizations for black people than any others for numerous decades to come.