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Old 04-21-2007, 10:46 PM   #21
ToshX
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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EDIT: Example of positive reinforcement working. I dropped out of school 3 years ago (Yea at 13) because a few bad grades caused my parents to flip and yell at me, making me angry and wanting to just piss them off more.
This happened to me as well at a certain age, but I really just wanted it because I wanted a break from all of the crap they gave me.

My parents bribed me money to go back and I refused it. I told them I'd go back when I was ready to do so.
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Old 04-22-2007, 09:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

Dealing strictly with the video...

I love how we have a few psychos and then suddenly the entire country is generalized as not having any morals. As if God would somehow fix these people, as if everyone has behaved perfectly in the past when everyone was religious XD

This problem has genetic and social roots, neither of which cause the problem itself. Genetically, there is no doubt Cho was predisposed to psychotic behavior and antisocial personality. From here society compliments the disorder, and as someone else said either enables or disables him to go ahead and do these kinds of things. Let's face it; it's ridiculously easy to get a gun in the states and these people end up all over the media after what they've done. So, not only is it fairly easy to go out and shoot people, there is an incentive to do so which can very easily give a psycho just enough to push them over the edge.

This wasn't any different in the past either. Violence has just manifested itself in a different way and we are all publically aware of now. To say that there was significantly less violence in the past per person I would highly doubt and I see no evidence to support this.

Putting God back into the schools isn't going to change anything because it really isn't the problem. Putting God back into the schools won't change the fact that not everyone is born equal, and that people are going to do bad things no matter what the social norms because there is always some sort of enabler. I do think it is possible to reduce the level of violence we are publically aware of...but in general violent acts have always been high in number. I'm pretty sure someone is murdered violently every few seconds somewhere in the world...we just seem to be going through some sort of violence for the media attention phase where people are directing their acts of violence towards things that will get them lots of media attention.


Edit: After a bit of searching I found some interesting results. United states has only the 24th highest level of per person violent crimes in the world. Keeping in mind that the United States is already one of the most religious countries in the world, there are a lot of other very religious countries near the top of the list. Interesting, that. So much for the God hypothesis. The rate is also 4 times higher in the US than in Canada. Why? Our cultures are virtually identical, so there goes the completely medias fault hypothesis. Gun laws? :S

Also, the violent crime rate in the US has about 0.0043% of the population committing murders. Far from 'noone having any morals' if you ask me. The number of people comitting violent crimes is not high at all...the difference being media attention and how violent the crimes actually end up being. Japan though, is at only 0.0005%, so there is room for improvement.
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Old 04-22-2007, 03:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

This video...just...retarded.

This is not stemmed from God being taken out of schools. It's about parents being unable to control their kids and what they do. Schools may be unable to discipline their students, but parents are able to teach them right from wrong at an early age. And the thing about beating children being taken out of schools...of course it warps who they are (I was beaten as a kid and put into a foster home for a bit). But this is just a result of emotional issues Cho had, not the media.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:19 PM   #24
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

This is a long post. Most of it pertains to my own experiences with positive and negative re-enforcement. I recommend reading the whole thing, as reading only a select few paragraphs will probably leave you with a limited or incorrect understanding.

I have been given a mixed blessing in my parents. One of them, my mother, rarely if ever punishes me, and only forces restrictions on me if something bad is happening to me as a result of my actions. My father, however, will never do anything for me. If I don't do everything he says the instant he says it, he will grab me, drag me on the floor to my room, shut the door, and shut off the breaker switch to my room. It has been like this my entire life, all 15 years of it.

As I was growing up, I began to listen to my parents differently. I always listened to what my mother said or asked me to do, provided she gave a valid reason for it, which she always did. As for my father, I would do what he said, but despise and loathe every second of it. I would do only enough to finish it, and try to make it as shoddy as possible.

My mother, from an early age, praised me for my extremely high grades, and gave me small rewards (a cookie, a dollar, etc, this was when I was in third grade after all) for it. She also explained that by having good grades, graduating, and going to college, I can have a fulfilling career making a comfortable salary. As such, I was motivated to do well in school, both to please my mother and to obtain the sort of rewards my mother said doing well in school would give me. To this day, I have never gotten anything except straight A's on my report cards. I currently have a 4.04 cumulative GPA, with a 4.125 every marking period this year.

My father, however, would not give any sort of reward. If he told me to do something, and I did it (out of fear), he would not give me any sort of recognition for its completion. If I didn't do it, he would punish me in the ways described previously. As such, my interests began to diverge from his. He loves sports; I loathe them. He's a very "outdoors" person; I am a total nerd. He and I both like computers, but my reason for liking them came in the form of my 6th grade computer teacher and my natural affinity for using them. Given the choice, I would not do anything my father told me to do. If my mother asked me to do the same thing, however, I would do it.

The same goes for what my parents ask me not to do. When I was a few years younger, my father would tell me things like, "Don't install this CD game on this computer" or "Don't play your video games until you do your homework." Instead of obeying those wishes, I merely circumvented them. I installed that CD game in a different directory and made the files hidden (yes, I could do that much at the time). I brought my homework to my room, locked my door, and played my video games before doing my homework. To this day, I do my homework very late because I know I can and not suffer anything for it. And I mean anything. I'm no more tired, my grades don't suffer, nothing.

Because my mother treated me, and still treats me, with respect, I listen to her. Even though there are things I don't want to do, and she probably couldn't punish me if she wanted to, I still do it. Why? Because I respect her. She treats me as an equal human being, though I am only her teenage son.

On the other hand, I avoid doing anything my father asks me to do. He does not respect me, and never has. He has never once said, "I'm proud of you." He always considers what is best for himself first, and never does anything for me without expecting me to do something for him first. I despise my father. His methods of discipline were more abusive, as was his overall treatment of me.

So I can say from experience that positive re-enforcement is infinitely better than negative re-enforcement. There are situations, of course, where something physical is required to quickly convey a point that you shouldn't do something, such as incorrigible behavior in public. However, when coupled with a majority of positive re-enforcement, this can be made highly effective. For instance, when I was about ten years old, my family went to a restaurant similar to Applebee's. There was a bald person the table across from me, so I pointed and said loudly "Look, that man has no hair!" My mother, who rarely, if ever, did anything physical to me, hit me on the shoulder fairly hard and gave me an angry look. I was immediately mortified, but I never thought my mother was abusing me. Instead, I thought, "Wow, if she's hitting me, I must really be doing something horrible...what did I do?" After some more thinking, I realized that by yelling out about the bald man, I had embarrassed him and my parents.

So if you use negative re-enforcement only when necessary amidst a vast majority of positive re-enforcement, the result is extremely favorable. Instead of not repeating the action out of fear, the child realizes that something must be really wrong if he is being physically disciplined. This stimulates thought, and if the child still can't figure it out, he will ask his parents why they hit him. If they respect the child, they will explain the offense in detail, and why it is wrong. If the child still doesn't understand, the parents can then say, "In that case, you'll just have to trust us." Since the child is respected and treated well, he will have no reason not to trust his parents, and not repeat the action because he trusts that it is wrong. He may not know why, but he knows that it is.

This is opposed to being negatively disciplined, where the child does not necessarily know that something is wrong if his parents always physically discipline him. All he knows is that his parents don't want him doing something, and they will punish him if he does. A lack of understanding of the offense then leads to the belief that his parents are just trying to hurt him, and a negative effect occurs on the child's psyche and self-esteem.

...My posts are way too long...
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:38 AM   #25
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

No, it's fine, I enjoyed reading them.

But yes, another thing that I hate is that I was always punished harder than I should've been, and look where it brought me. I'm sure it's hard to tell on the internet, but it brought me to a terrible place.

However, it also showed me that I need to discipline myself and that, if anyone's gonna make a change, it's gonna be me. Self-dependency is a way of saying it, I guess. And that's a nice thing to have, but not at the cost of being emotionally ruined.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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Originally Posted by ToshX View Post
No, it's fine, I enjoyed reading them.

But yes, another thing that I hate is that I was always punished harder than I should've been, and look where it brought me. I'm sure it's hard to tell on the internet, but it brought me to a terrible place.

However, it also showed me that I need to discipline myself and that, if anyone's gonna make a change, it's gonna be me. Self-dependency is a way of saying it, I guess. And that's a nice thing to have, but not at the cost of being emotionally ruined.
I agree. As a result of my parents constantly punishing me and putting me down constantly for small mistakes I ended up rebelling against them and then realizing that if I don't make a change for me then it's not going to be a real change. But, I don't know if the same things apply to you, but I was emotionally torn apart for years and years of my life, and though I'm stronger now, there's a lot of parts of me that are very closed off and I have major trust issues lol.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

I blame the community and his parents for what he did, you could only push one person so far before they get violent ideas. I support Cho as a human being that just got pushed over the edge, not what he did. Cho called himself a martyr because he did something to try and show the world his suffering and tip my bandana to anyone who has a message that strong. Killing people was going too far, but even though he did it that doesnt me his message shouldnt be heard.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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I blame the community and his parents for what he did, you could only push one person so far before they get violent ideas.
Completely? Or do you still blame him for deciding when he'd had enough, and deciding what to do about it?
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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I agree. As a result of my parents constantly punishing me and putting me down constantly for small mistakes I ended up rebelling against them and then realizing that if I don't make a change for me then it's not going to be a real change. But, I don't know if the same things apply to you, but I was emotionally torn apart for years and years of my life, and though I'm stronger now, there's a lot of parts of me that are very closed off and I have major trust issues lol.
Actually, that's how I am as well.
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I blame the community and his parents for what he did, you could only push one person so far before they get violent ideas. I support Cho as a human being that just got pushed over the edge, not what he did. Cho called himself a martyr because he did something to try and show the world his suffering and tip my bandana to anyone who has a message that strong. Killing people was going too far, but even though he did it that doesnt me his message shouldnt be heard.
Yeah, you have to give the guy some credit for wanting to prove a point so badly that he was willing to do anything. I mean yeah, it was a bad thing, and we all wish it didn't happen. But if he felt that strongly about it, he certainly must've meant it much more than most people do about their things.
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Completely? Or do you still blame him for deciding when he'd had enough, and deciding what to do about it?
In some situations, it feels like someone has no other choice, that they were pushed too far. They just can't tolerate stuff any longer. They've probably been bothered all of their life and forced to stand it, but they just can't do that crap anymore.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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In some situations, it feels like someone has no other choice, that they were pushed too far. They just can't tolerate stuff any longer. They've probably been bothered all of their life and forced to stand it, but they just can't do that crap anymore.
In such situations, how is murder even remotely an acceptable option no matter -how- hard you've been pushed? If life is so intolerable, do yourself a favour and just end your life. I have no sympathy for people who will claim that life is too horrible to stand, yet have the wherewithal to go murder 30 innocent people instead of just suiciding.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:25 PM   #31
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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Originally Posted by Pippin667 View Post
I blame the community and his parents for what he did, you could only push one person so far before they get violent ideas. I support Cho as a human being that just got pushed over the edge, not what he did. Cho called himself a martyr because he did something to try and show the world his suffering and tip my bandana to anyone who has a message that strong. Killing people was going too far, but even though he did it that doesnt me his message shouldnt be heard.
You can't really blame his parents, you can do the best job in the world and still be raising a psychopath, I feel sorry for them, think what they must be going through, having everybody judging them, and losing a son, it must be horrible.
And the community? Meh, maybe he wasn't treated perfectly by everybody, maybe he was bullied, but I don't think it's any excuse for suicide, let alone a murderous rampage. Ultimately, his own actions were his own responsibility, no one elses. What was his message? If he was bullied or something, there are many different more proactive ways to go about spreading his 'message'. Do you also tip your bandana to the 9/11 suicide bombers then?
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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Originally Posted by Pippin667 View Post
Cho called himself a martyr because he did something to try and show the world his suffering and tip my bandana to anyone who has a message that strong. Killing people was going too far, but even though he did it that doesnt me his message shouldnt be heard.
As far as what I've seen and heard of his "message" it really didn't make sense. It sounded more like violent, incoherent rambling to me.
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

After reading the first page, I just have to say some things.

When I was growing up I was hardly spanked - well, by my dad at least. I knew I could get away with most everything if my mom was around, but not with my dad.

When I was about four, I went through a terrible lying phase, and I guess my dad had just gotten fed up with it. One day in the kitchen he was sitrring something that looked like frosting, so I asked him,
"Daddy, can I have some frosting?"
"I don't know... it'll ruin your dinner."
"No it won't! I'll eat everything! I promise."
"I don't know..."
"PLEASE?!"
He got me extremely worked up over a spoonful of frosting, and finally gave in. He handed me the spoon, loaded with frosting, and I crammed it all into my mouth with glee - but then, instead of tasting sugary goodness, I tasted bitter nastiness. I looked up at him, questioningly, and he said "It's shortening."
Then I started to cry, and I said to him "Why did you lie to me?!"
he replied with,
"Well you do it - I thought it was okay."
Instantly my tears were replaced with thoughtfulness, and to this day, because of that incident, I've never told more than a little white lie regarding presents of some kind. If I had just been spanked, I doubt I would've come out of that phase as easily...
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Old 04-25-2007, 02:10 AM   #34
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

you can spread the blame around. media...its ridiculous what they show on television these days. and maybe people bullied him causing him to hate the world a bit more. and his parents? put some of the blame on them also.
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Old 04-25-2007, 02:11 AM   #35
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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you can spread the blame around. media...its ridiculous what they show on television these days. and maybe people bullied him causing him to hate the world a bit more. and his parents? put some of the blame on them also.
As long as you put a damn hell lot of the blame squarely on him. He -chose- to react the way he did regardless of the outside stimuli trying to influence him.
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Old 04-25-2007, 02:22 AM   #36
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

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As long as you put a damn hell lot of the blame squarely on him. He -chose- to react the way he did regardless of the outside stimuli trying to influence him.
ya of course.
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Old 04-25-2007, 09:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

I agree with the he CHOSE to do what he did. No matter how much TV we watch, video games we play, or music we listen to, we CHOSE how to behave. We decided how things impact us. The media is not to blame. The mental stabilty and his own personal battles are to blame. Some people simply are not as strong as others. Many people can take even te hardest times. Sometimes however, the week CHOSE to commit mass murders and what not. I almost think if there was anyone to blame its either him, for not seeking professional help with his personal battles, His parents and friends a for not urging him to seek prossional help, Or in the case he was seeking I still blame him. No matter what problems you are going dealing with, NOTHING can justify commiting crime such as the one he did. There is not justifiable way to blame the media for this. I am almost certian if you went and picked 10 random people off the street and sat them in a room with unlimited cable channels, Music, and Videos games for a week solid, or even longer, when released the likely hood of anyone of them going out and commiting a crime becuase of this experience is slim to none.
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Old 04-25-2007, 12:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

i wouldnt say the chances are slim to none sera. the chances are up there but not too high. ive read some research and books and music and video games does have an impact on the choices and actions people make. i agree with what you say however that what he did was his CHOICE. he is responsible for his actions and his mental thinking. outside stimuli has somewhat of an impact on mental thinking and choices.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

I think what he did was because he was just pushed to the edge by society, its just strange for someone to do that without a reason according to the students who said there wasnt a reason which I think is bull****.
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Old 04-26-2007, 02:35 PM   #40
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Default Re: Blaming what Cho did...on media?

There is always a reason for this kind of thing. It's not like some psycho just wakes up and says "I wanna go kill 32 people because some kid told me I was ugly". There is always a much deeper reason for this. Maybe he just didn't want to say it? Maybe he just felt very strongly about what he did say.
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