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#1 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,111
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For the sake of not causing a misunderstanding.
Last edited by ToshX; 09-29-2007 at 02:41 AM.. |
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#2 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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I'm pretty sure that murder, mass murder, assault, rape, and theft predate the existance of video games and movies...
I think it is complete and utter nonsense for anyone to ever claim that media can "make you violent" I will absolutely agree that violent media can potentially be an "enabler" (Like, in the psychological sense of the word enabler) to already violent people. If you are already prone to acts of violence, are a violent person and want to do violence, I submit that exposure to violent media can in fact encourage you to go over that edge, but that requires you to have already been in a shape that should be easily detectable by anyone who knows you or cares about your welfare. But to imply that media is capable of turning otherwise non-violent people into killers, that's just complete and utter hogwash. Now: to respond to the video specifically: I'm at an utter loss to even comprehend the depth and breadth if ignorance that went into the making of that video. Some of the biggest straw men I've ever seen, red herring conclusions, ad hominem reasoning, if that kind of logic was put into a paper for a philosophy class, they would fail, probably fail the course, and need a very stern talking to about how you can't just make **** up because you feel like making a point.... If you want to see someone misinterpret evidence, present things in a way so misleading as to be utter falsity, and then use that nonsense to make a spurious claim that doesn't actually have any support, then that is the video for you. |
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#3 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,111
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Well, media does have a noticeable effect on people, especially in middle school and such. I'm sure some things DO make people think about killing/doing drugs/etc. as "cool", maybe even enough to inspire someone to do such a thing. But I don't think it's any more to blame than crappy parenting. Parents have all sorts of ways to protect their kids, they just don't use them. I mean, there's already a freakin' label on the back of video games telling you EXACTLY what the heck is in the game, as rated by an official company. There are ALREADY warnings before "mature" or "graphic" content(like people shooting one another). There are ALREADY ratings on every movie shown in theaters. People just need to pay attention to them.
As for it inspiring violence in the older groups, that is complete nonsense. As you said, it'd only "encourage" them to do what they already feel inside them. |
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#4 |
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FFR Player
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....That video...was just...wow. At the end of the movie they should have put. "Some people decided that we should blame everything our children do on outside influences and the media as opposed to keeping parents accountable and responsible for their offspring. And we said....damn straight." Because, that's exactly what that video is suggesting.
I never ONCE heard them blame parents for anything. If an elementary school student is watching movies like "Die Hard" then the parent is simply not doing their job, because those are the years when a child is starting to pick up more on the outside world. In middle school is when children try and find out who they are and start getting into music and video games and movies and things like that, and this is a time where parenting is crucial, because if they listen to music saying "Chop up your mom, chop up your dad, it will be the best time you ever had!" They'll think "Well, they know best! *chops up*" and then we blame the music. That's a load of ****. Parents need to monitor their children. Not cover them in an umbrella, but monitor what they listen to, what websites they visit, the movies they watch, etc. As soon as high school comes along you are smart enough to know what's what and you have that common sense. If at that time or beyond you go slaughtering people then that's your fault and no one else's. Yes, media has an impact, but parents are still the main influence on children. |
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#5 |
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FFR Player
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The video is so ridiculous it almost makes me think that it's a sort of satire. I mean, I can't imagine anybody reaching these conclusions except for the high-and-mighty christian seeking to have their beliefs confirmed.
If it is serious, I would be very surprised... and disappointed.
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C is for Charisma, it's why people think I'm great! I make my friends all laugh and smile and never want to hate! |
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#6 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Honolulu, Hi
Posts: 113
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wow this blog sort of helped me with my current events....thanks
-supraman
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"too high up on the food chain" |
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#7 |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,921
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Wow, not one person is for this video. Time for another debate. I say the video makes many valid points and that there is a lot of truth to it. It did start when we took God out of the schools. My Mom, even today, goes on when she sees stuff like kids killing people, themselves, etc. that in her day, this was all VERY rare. She could pretty much go anywhere and not have to worry about this abducting crap.
Now, I agree that a lot of this has to do with parenting. But still, I think the problem stems from not having God in the schools. After the "No God in school" act, things have been spiraling downhill. It used to be that if your kid was misbehaving, he would get spanked. Not just by his/her parents, if you were somewhere else and a neighbor saw you misbehaving, then they not only would spank you, they'd call your parents and tell them about it and you'd get it again when you got home. Both my parents went through this and they aren't off decapitating people for fun. Now you have these liberal bastards (excuse my language) telling people that you can't spank your kids. Instead, and here's where the "no God" and the media come into play, you have to send them to their room, or take away their phone for a day. What do you think they're doing in their room? Playing these violet video games and watching all kind of crap on the internet. Yes, I agree that a lot of this is the parent's fault, but we've taken away their original rights to discipline children. EDIT: I'm up for a debate here and I'm pretty sure devonin will make me think. Last edited by u84; 04-21-2007 at 04:15 AM.. |
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#8 |
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FFR Player
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You see this as being about physical discipline?
I am vehemently against physical discipline, just to clarify my stance here. The only lesson children learn from it is obedience. They do not learn to internalize their morals - they learn that if something is bad, they'll be punished for it, so avoid doing "bad" things so you can avoid the punishment. So what happens to these individuals when they get older? If they have internalized this "If something is bad i'll be punished" attitude, they won't have internalized morals. Their motivation for not doing bad things will be that they won't get caught. IMO, this is completely backwards- if you don't spank your children, and instead teach them compassion and the meaning of what they do, they internalize a set of values that correspond to "I should not harm others beacuse I would not like to be harmed either" - instead of the backwards set of morals, which are "I should not harm others because I will get in trouble". The problem with that is, what must follow is, "I can harm others if I am not going to get in trouble". The problem is not the discipline, but the learning methods used on children. Just because you don't spank them doesn't mean you don't punish or teach them right from wrong. I think we can all agree life was simpler the further back in time we go. Our modern world is very complicated and confusing. But I think it's for a good cause. We're evolving (I don't mean this in the literal sense, as in, evolution of a species, but evolution of our capacities and technology). This obviously means some things are going to happen. God isn't the answer. Proper knowledge of how to make people internalize a good moral set IS. And in my opinion, religion does not give you a good moral set. I'm not saying all religious people are immoral. Not at all. I'm just talking about the teachings. What you learn is "I shouldn't do this because God said I shouldn't". That is the main teaching of the bible - the main reason you should not hurt others is because God says it's bad. Not because you would not like to be hurt, or because hurting others is inherently immoral. Which I think it is. Not because of God, but because harm is the only universal sin.
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C is for Charisma, it's why people think I'm great! I make my friends all laugh and smile and never want to hate! |
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#9 | |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,921
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God IS the answer. If you truly are a Christian, God-loving person, then you understand that you don't not do something just because God said not to. The Bible does not tell you to blindly follow him like it's some cult. A true Christian does right because he/she knows it is wrong and that God also looks down upon it. Honestly, yes, there are people who say they're religous and just blindly follow God, but the true believers do right because of many reasons other than "God said it was wrong." Now, unto the rest of what you said. When you don't spank your kid and you expect him to just do right because that it is right, then this is giving him the thought that he/she can do whatever they want because they won't get punished. Sure, you tell your kid not to do it because that's not what they would want. But what if, and I am using extreme circumstances (that are occuring much more often), this kid wants to die? Telling him to do what he wants done unto him, well you're teaching him that he can kill as many people as he wants because it is what he would want done unto him. I am a kid and I know how one thinks. If you are a parent and you tell your kid he can do whatever he wants, but he will be spanked if it is wrong, especially when the parents aren't pansies, then you are MUCH less likely to misbehave. On the other hand, if my parents told me that I can do whatever I want and they won't phisically hurt me, then who cares about a phone lost for a week. Who cares if I don't get to come out of my room. I have everything in here anyways. Spanking a kid and teaching him there will be punishments for all actions may give them the mindset that "I don't want to do this because I'm afraid I'll get caught," is a better mindset than "I can do whatever I want because even if I do get caught, the punishments won't be that bad anyways." Honestly, I had a lot more to say as I was reading the quote I have, but as I wrote on, I kind of lost what I was going to say. |
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#10 | ||||||
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Very Grave Indeed
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I recieved two spankings in my entire life. Both while I was under the age of 2, both while I was basically mentally unable to comprehend an explanation of why what I did was wrong. Once I tried to run directly into traffic, and once in a very large city, I ran away while my mother was momentarily distracted, and both spankings were as much a fear response from my mother as they were intended to punish me. As soon as I was of an age to understand intellectual and abstract concepts, my family simply took the route of -explaining- why things that were "wrong" were wrong. Most children, if shown some basic respect for their own intellect are capable of drawing the connection between "I woudln't like it if someone took my toys" and "It's not a nice thing to take someone else's toys, because they won't like it either" Last edited by devonin; 04-21-2007 at 06:17 AM.. |
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#11 |
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FFR Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,921
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"There are punishments that are effective as negative reenforcement that are not physical. As an aside to that, it's been proven that positively reenforcing good behavior works much better on animals than negatively reenforcing bad behavior, and in many ways, intellectually and mentally young children aren't that far off."
Comparing children to animals.. I wasn't expecting this one. I taught my dog where to use the bathroom by beating him if he did it inside. He learned very quick. Now, are you going to keep comparing animals to children? Probably not. "Maybe my family is somehow some crazy, unique family of geniuses, but somehow I really really doubt that. My family is no different than any other, or at least is no different than what any other has the potential to be." It is becoming more and more obvious that you were not the product of spanking and, quite frankly, if that's true, then I believe even more in spanking. Wouldn't want MY kids to turn out like that. "This is a common issue for many parents when trying to determine a punishment for a child, and at its root just shows how little involved parents are in the lives of their children. Obviously if all your stuff is in there, simply sending you to your room is no punishment at all. That's not proof that non-physical punishments are no good, that's proof that when it comes to knowing how to punish you in a way that will effect you, your parents are just idiots." Do you really want to take this to an insulting each other level? The examples I give are not just my parents. I see it all the time. You and your parents seem like snobby assholes who think you're better than everyone. Just because you and I may believe in different opinions does not give you the right to be insulting my parents. I think you need to be spanked. |
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#12 |
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FFR Player
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Actually u47, devonin is right, at least about the positive reinforcement. There have been many studies showing positive reinforcement works much better than negative.
Where to start.... okay. Studies are done not just on animals, but people too, that show that negative discipline barely works and is more likely to cause harm than teach kids not to do something. It is, however, counter-intuitive, because of regression. Parents often strongly believe that spanking their children leads to a good effect, and they tend to cease positive reinforcement because it seems to do nothing. Regression causes the immediate effect to disappear, so it can be confusing to see why positive reinforcement is more successful on the whole than negative. What is regression, in this context? Well, regression means that things tend to return to the norm. In the case of children, we're talking about their behaviour. When a child does something extraordinarily good, a parent might feel inclined to reward the child. However, the parent might become disheartened at what happens next - the child's behaviour is most likely to return to the statistical norm. When you are high - it's very hard to get higher. If you get an A on a test, but you usually only get Cs, is it very likely that, on your next test, you get another A? No amount of rewarding will cause a child to immediately improve. So parents decide that it isn't working. On the contrast, when a child does something extraordinarily bad, parents may feel inclined to punish the child. And because of regression, IT WILL ALWAYS SEEM LIKE IT IS WORKING, even if it isn't. If you don't understand, well here's the explanation. Again, regression means that it returns to the statistical norm. If the child normally gets Cs, and comes home with a failing mark, is it very likely that, on the next test, the child will fail again? No. They will probably improve. It's hard to get lower than low. If you fail... where else is there to go? Since the child normally gets Cs, it is extremely probable that on the child's next test, they will get a higher mark than they just got. This happens WHETHER YOU PUNISH THE CHILD OR NOT. When parents decide to discipline their child physically, and the child improves, the parent concludes that the discipline is working. Basically, regression can account for most immediate effects of positive reinforcement (not working) and negative reinforcement (working). However, this says nothing about the long term effects. Say a child (who normally gets Cs) comes home with an extraordinary test mark of an A. The parents cheer and hooray and treat the child to a night out. On their next test, they get a C+. The child has improved! But will a parent see that? Probably not. They will wonder "What have we done wrong? Their mark went back down!" and will be discouraged from continuing positive reinforcement - unless they understand regression. Regression effects and how they are perceived by people can easily explain the strong motivation to punish and the weak motivation to positively reinforce. It also explains why people "intuitively know" that punishment works and positive reinforcement doesn't, when in actuality, there is a lot of evidence going for positive reinforcement. Many child therapists are reccomending for parents (not all the time - definitely not in certain extreme cases) to simply ignore their child's bad behaviour, and remember to always compliment them on their good behaviour. This creates a positive attitude in the child. Also, many children may misbehave for the sole purpose of attracting attention. Even if the attention is negative. (Much like interet trolls, and the same philosophy works for them: ) If you ignore negative behaviour, you won't be reinforcing this attention seeking. If you reinforce positive behaviour, you will be reinforcing the child's positive identity. Long post. That's all I guess. I haven't read all of the replies, but I wanted to comment on how "easy" it is to tell that physical discipline works and positive reinforcemet doesn't.
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C is for Charisma, it's why people think I'm great! I make my friends all laugh and smile and never want to hate! |
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#13 | |||
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Very Grave Indeed
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Don't you find it a little disheartening, other forum readers, that "Parents who treat their children as intelligent reasonable people, and actually discuss and explain themselves instead of just hitting you when you do something wrong" makes them "A snobby asshole who thinks they're better than everyone"? |
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#14 |
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FFR Player
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__________________
Truth lies in loneliness, When hope is long gone by -Blind Guardian, The Soulforged Image removed for size violation. |
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#15 |
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Very Grave Indeed
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You know, perhaps the title of this thread ought to be changed. The OP's video link didn't actually deal directly with the shooting at all, and the particular points of the video that the group seems to collectively hit on to discuss have even less to do with school shootings...
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#16 | |
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MMM WATCHA SAY
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Anyways, I think that "positive" and "negative" reinforcement both have their place. For example, I think positive is the best for the long-term, as devonin has claimed many times. However, if you are in the middle of a restaurant and your child is bothering other people, it may be better to go with the quick fix and give him a nice spanking to ensure it doesn't bother other people for at LEAST the rest of the time he's there. Now, I'm not claiming that negative reinforcement is GOOD, just a necessary evil. I'm a firm believer of "Your rights end when the next person's begins," which leads to the mentality that a spanking/other physical punishment is in order when your child is bothering another person. As devonin said, this DOES NOT reinforce morals, which means you should couple it with positive reinforcement when he does do something that helps someone else. Summary: In a perfect world, positive reinforcement would be the only one needed, but sometimes a quick fix is necessary. |
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#17 | |
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There are many different type of kids and as such, there are also many ways to raise a kid, saying that there is one singular answer, such as God, spanking a kid, or not spanking them at all is plain ignorant. Although one way may work for many, it may not always work for all. Some kids need the spanking, some kids don't. Not only that, there are so many other influential factors we have to consider such as the society and culture the kid grew up in.
That being said, even though the media could be influential on Cho's actions, there are clearly more than one force at work. Blaming everything on the media is just plain and stupid. ~Tsugomaru
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#18 |
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let it snow~
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#19 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,111
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I figured I'd throw this in, since we're talking about it.
When I was growing up, I wasn't really disciplined physically very much. I mean of course there were times when I was, but in the end, it ended up making me more angry and making me want to do the opposite of what my parents asked for. My parents even tried "emotionally" disciplining me. It turned out terrible, to say the very least. Being yelled at all of the time just made me go a little crazy(but I guess it would be more effective on most people, I just don't really give in at all if I'm against something enough). But, although they will never realize it, the only way they're going to accomplish anything with me is if they: 1) Tell me nicely not to do something(unless I do it repeatedly or something, as in don't blow up on me for messing up once). 2) Give me the rare request I may ask for. I don't ask for anything unreasonable. Just peace of mind while at the house and to be left alone at times. If they do those things, I am MUCH more willing to help them out on whatever they want, and I'm just nicer to them in general. I also will listen to what they have to say if they do those simple things. But will they ever learn to do that? No, they sure as hell won't. So I'm going to raise my kids differently, in the way I wanted it to be(as long as they are reasonable). I'm sure she thought the same way, though, because her parents were probably worse. |
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#20 | ||||
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Ok, time to break this apart piece by piece so maybe you understand a little bit?
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That's all for me EDIT: Example of positive reinforcement working. I dropped out of school 3 years ago (Yea at 13) because a few bad grades caused my parents to flip and yell at me, making me angry and wanting to just piss them off more. Now, I decided to start school again. It was a tough choice, because I'm so used to sitting at home and sleeping all day, but because my dad has grown up a little he's become a lot cooler. He tells me every day how proud he is of me, and that is one of the reasons why I attend school every day, because I love coming home to a phone call and having my dad ask how my day was and then before saying bye he goes "I'm really proud of you, keep it up." He didn't give me anything, he didn't bribe me, he just gives me simple words of confidence and faith in me, and that was enough for me to start instilling values of discipline and work ethic within myself. Last edited by Wlfwnd91; 04-21-2007 at 09:25 PM.. |
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