FC Stat bar - New Implementation

[benny58624]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I'm a big fan of getting a SDG bar too

If a SDG bar would be implemented, I don't think FC needs to be changed at all (other than make the website remember FC's even if your best raw score contains a miss). There'd be something for everyone. If someone wants to mash their way to a big FC bar they can do so if they want. If they prefer playing without mashing but don't want to go for perfect scores, they can go for a good SDG bar.

Why the heck would a player under Div 8 even try to go for an FC on a file like that? That's like if I tried to FC a 25 MSD chart in Etterna when I can only do 19 MSD charts, Then again I don't really know how tier points, AAA equivalentcy or all of that jazz works, but don't know what happens when you fill the FC bar or WHY you would want to fill it, but that just doesn't make sense to me

They do because they can. I remember getting FC on difficulty 90+ files in my early days on FFR as a D1 player XD.
There's also some tokens that require you to get FC, most notably the one that requires a FC on Extratone Pirates (difficulty 94 file).

[ToonE156]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Ever since the change from Combo scoring to Raw scoring I've wanted the FC bar to be reworked. I don't think it should be removed even if it's not getting reworked: some people are still interested in FC's even though it's flawed, and people that don't care about FC's can just ignore it.

How to rework the FC system:
The main flaw of the FC system is that you can lose your FC status when improving your score. To fix this, stop tracking FC's on the website and track FC* instead (renaming it to FC).
A more controversial additional idea (and more difficult to implement due to tokens) is making "Boo" and/or "Average" break your combo. This change would make it (nearly) impossible to mash for a FC, so FC's would be a more meaningful metric to have.

THIS, THIS. I've always held the stance that "Goods" in rhythm games shouldn't be counted towards combo, so its always weird how an Average counts towards an FC*.

Something else I don't like is the Anti-mashing/anti-ghost taping that FFR has, the devs should make it more like a passive system like how Etterna does it, instead though, they Implemented something that has randomly punished me more than it has helped incentivize me to NOT mash, but thats a rant for another day. Because of this, I think that Boos should still be counted, just make them turn an FC into an FC* like what averages do

[trumaestro]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I'd leave the FC bar and have FC* counting toward it. It's just a little completionist thing anyway. Besides not everyone can mash out an FC on eg. Fireball so a +1 on a meaningless bar is enough for that achievement. If a player really wants to spend the time to mash out an FC on every song in the game just to fill that bar, they can/should.

We measure actual skill through AAA equiv. You're not getting equiv by mashing your way through everything.

[ToonE156]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I second a SDG bar too, it doesn't sit right with me how an FC is counted but not a SDG, a rank that is, in my opinion, harder to get than a normal FC. If they also count FC*s in the FC bar or make its own bar than that's an ehhhhhhhhhh idea, not bad but not the greatest

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

@OP: see above, I believe FC'ing something (if it's going to be added to some stat bar) should involve the player demonstrating a certain level of competence to play the file in question, which is why I'd prefer some restrictions given FFR's judgment system. A D4 player getting a 0 miss 1000+ boo score on Jamais Vu doesn't achieve this. FC bar meta just becomes a game of smashing random keys while not failing out and completely disregarding the actual chart. I don't think that should be entertained as an option, especially if anyone is arguing "it makes players better" to keep the FC bar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you want is not a FC metric anymore, it's a metric of "somewhat decent scores". You know what that sounds like ? AA in Stepmania/Etterna (93% score, however your % is computed). Although I don't disagree with your statements in that regard, I absolutely do disagree when talking about the FC metric.

What would you think of making the FC bar count the FC*'s, but add a new metric similar to AA which FFR could work on defining. Imo this sounds like a much better alternative than trying to give a funky, non-intuitive re-definition to the FC metric.

Why the heck would a player under Div 8 even try to go for an FC on a file like that? That's like if I tried to FC a 25 MSD chart in Etterna when I can only do 19 MSD charts, Then again I don't really know how tier points, AAA equivalentcy or all of that jazz works, but don't know what happens when you fill the FC bar or WHY you would want to fill it, but that just doesn't make sense to me

You should almost never see game aspects from a perspective of "why would anyone do X" when X is something that is already done by some people. In other words, some players do enjoy going for these FCs. They dont owe you an explanation for why they do, however in this case it's often for completionist mindset and/or testing how fast they can control mash.

[Hakulyte]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Maybe FFR could have multiple FC metrics ?

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Maybe FFR could have multiple FC metrics ?

Care to elaborate ?

[One Winged Angel]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you want is not a FC metric anymore, it's a metric of "somewhat decent scores". You know what that sounds like ? AA in Stepmania/Etterna (93% score, however your % is computed). Although I don't disagree with your statements in that regard, I absolutely do disagree when talking about the FC metric.

What would you think of making the FC bar count the FC*'s, but add a new metric similar to AA which FFR could work on defining. Imo this sounds like a much better alternative than trying to give a funky, non-intuitive re-definition to the FC metric.

No I very much would like a full combo metric, just under the pretense that the full combos involve playing the charts. If the full combo bar can be filled with scores that ultimately look like [12][34] spamming throughout the chart's duration, I fail to see the point of tracking them. I'm saying that some restriction should be set in place given FFR has no judgment that breaks combo other than an outright miss, and I don't think the judgment system is going to change after 19 years. The majority of other rhythm games have some sort of hit judgment that breaks combo, which if one such judgment existed in FFR, I wouldn't be arguing for a restriction if the bar was to stay. Making a single boo break combo is far too punishing, despite how "clean" the solution appears (boos as a whole either breaking or continuing combo). If a player gets 200+ goods but maintains a relatively low boo count, at least they're demonstrating an intention to play the file as it's written, and in that case the full combo should be rightfully rewarded.

And yes I had either a thread or started a discord conversation (or both honestly) regarding the implementation of AA in FFR, which I believe setting at 99% of max raw score would work best. This would likely be the greatest incentivizing metric possible. In the scenario where that's implemented, then yes sure I guess count the FC*'s with no restrictions and players can choose to focus on AAs if they want to actually improve. Though I still think a FC bar that entertains the possibility of mindlessly mashing through every chart is pointless to have, but at least you'll have a cleaner solution and definition for it.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

If the full combo bar can be filled with scores that ultimately look like [12][34] spamming throughout the chart's duration, I fail to see the point of tracking them.

Well there is no point to it in a context where FC should be some kind of performance metric. Currently, the main metric of skill FFR uses does not equate to any combo-related thing. Therefore, it does seem somewhat odd to enforce the basis of argument that FC must be about performance as defined by skill rating.

If a player gets 200+ goods but maintains a relatively low boo count, at least they're demonstrating an intention to play the file as it's written.

I can guarantee you that I will still mash each and every section I can on the harder files to squeeze into a semi-arbitrary relative % of boos requirement while keeping 0 miss.

That being said, you could still get a low enough boo count, get a single miss, and not earn the FC. So from a completionist mindset, where a player doesn't want to focus on skill rating at any given time, they'd Still be incentivized to mash the harder sections of the charts they can almost do well enough on, just to grab these few more FC points.

For these reasons, I feel like the arguments presented so far for a "relative % boos FC" are weak, and that a "AA" equivalent metric would suit the premise much better as some kind of "you did good enough" metric.

[Hakulyte]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Care to elaborate ?

Well, it depends if there's some value into filtering FCs per quality.

e.g: Normal FC vs Non-mashed FC(?) vs clean FC vs SDG FC.

This is more for the Engine than the FC bar tbh. It's fun to track for giving yourself goals.

I personally think the FC/AAA/TP bar should at some point be replaced with condensed information that is relevant to the current reality of the game which is still being discussed atm.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Here We Go had different requirements that is more "raw scoring friendly".

It all depends on how we want the game to evolve to suit the player's need. I'm assuming we have FCs because it's a fun stat to track for progressing when AAA doesn't feel realistic.

[VisD]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

Keeping the FC bar and having FC* count towards that, while adding an additional SDG or AA bar (don't know if we need to have both necessarily) is what I'd like to see personally

[One Winged Angel]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I can guarantee you that I will still mash each and every section I can on the harder files to squeeze into a semi-arbitrary relative % of boos requirement while keeping 0 miss.

That being said, you could still get a low enough boo count, get a single miss, and not earn the FC. So from a completionist mindset, where a player doesn't want to focus on skill rating at any given time, they'd Still be incentivized to mash the harder sections of the charts they can almost do well enough on, just to grab these few more FC points.

For these reasons, I feel like the arguments presented so far for a "relative % boos FC" are weak, and that a "AA" equivalent metric would suit the premise much better as some kind of "you did good enough" metric.

There's a big difference between mashing through a small portion of a chart that may be overwhelming while playing the rest legitimately vs hitting the same inputs for every chart regardless of what's on the screen.

I'm in the camp that finds this statistic pointless to track if the latter is something players will end up doing. That's the extent of what I'm willing to argue about this.

[axith]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

I've always seen the fc as a step towards the aaa. The fc bar should count fc* though. It's never felt good to lose a fc if I got a better raw score that happens to have a miss. It feels like I'm going backwards.

I'm indifferent on a sdg/AA bar. Seeing sdg in the client is good enough for me.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

There's a big difference between mashing through a small portion of a chart that may be overwhelming while playing the rest legitimately vs hitting the same inputs for every chart regardless of what's on the screen.

I'm in the camp that finds this statistic pointless to track if the latter is something players will end up doing. That's the extent of what I'm willing to argue about this.

There is a significant difference yes.
I can't argue that bold section; what you find meaningful in a game is purely subjective. Therefore for that same reason, if a non-negligible amount of players consider it a fun metric, the decision to keep it or not is Entirely up to "do you think there are enough players who like that metric to warrant keeping it ?", and not "do you think the metric is meaningful". This is basic game design, and can be seen in countless games where there's some accomplishment/completion stat which has nothing to do with the main path/quest/metric of the game.

I've always seen the fc as a step towards the aaa. The fc bar should count fc* though. It's never felt good to lose a fc if I got a better raw score that happens to have a miss. It feels like I'm going backwards.

In bold are somewhat contradictory statements. A significant amount of PBs from all the player base are close to AAA but not an FC. Also as others mentionned, FC* does incentivize mashing for that specific metric, therefore if it counted it would most definitely be Less of a step towards AAA than it currently is.

[axith]

Re: FC Stat bar - New Implementation

In bold are somewhat contradictory statements

I get understanding my statement as contradictory. I dont think there's much reward to mashing fc's in terms of both improvement and the tokens associated with the fc count. So I'm not really worried about potentially incentivising mashing for fc's. Maybe I'm a bit naive on that idea. I'm not against adding a requirement for a maximum limit of boos to have an fc count.The 2% max boo cut-off mentioned earlier in the thread seems reasonable to me.

I'll admit losing the fc on a better score is more of an emotional complaint.