My rant on government benefits

[Syhto]

Re: My rant on government benefits

lol afrobean

[Reincarnate]

Re: My rant on government benefits

these discussions are a waste of time

you either care about the data, or you care about ideology and anecdotes

[Vendetta21]

Re: My rant on government benefits

Can you post some of the data

[Afrobean]

Re: My rant on government benefits

The problem with your sister doesn't seem to be that she's on disability but rather that her and her husband resort to crime to get a lot of money.

There's no way they make very much money selling those pills. Most likely not even enough to make up for her husband occasionally disappearing to the crackhouse. Definitely not enough to cover monthly utilities and food for a family of five, a new car, and all new furniture. Not to mention their legal problems (the man has been jailed twice in the past two months, the woman is on probation).

And no, bipolar disorder is not an automatically appropriate reason to receive constant disability pay. Properly treated, bipolar disorder needn't seriously impact an individual's ability to get or keep a job. The reason this woman couldn't remain employed (when she was trying to many years ago) is because she's an insubordinate asshole employee. She can't maintain employment because, as I hear it, every job she's ever had she is rude and refuses to just do the job she was hired for. That is NOT something that is caused by bipolar disorder, that's just part of her shitty character. She used to physically assault her parents and was literally a gang member. She is just an awful human being.

[Cavernio]

Re: My rant on government benefits

I don't know any way to 'properly treat' bipolar disorder. I don't even know any bi-polar specific drugs, they're either antidepressants, anti-psychotics, or lithium, which is an anti-manic. What sort of knowledge do you have about the efficacy of mental illness treatments? Properly treated mental illness, in my jaded view, is nearly an oxymoron.

I honestly don't know how much money someone can get on disability, but as most people have said, there's hardly any money to be made when you get it. Last I looked into it disability in New Brunswick was 500$/month. That's really scraping it to live off of by yourself. Do you actually know how much money they get from the government?

Also, I'm kinda glad that simply being a crappy person isn't enough for you to not get money. Like, if you consider the long-term ramifications of this, kids that are supported properly as children, even if it's 'unfair' to the parents in terms of them getting items etc for not working, will pay off in the future. Why should kids suffer because the parents are shitty? That just creates generations of crappy people. The cycle has to end somewhere.
Unfortunately, just giving people money isn't enough, ending the cycle involves treating behavioural problems, no matter what causes them.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: My rant on government benefits

My family has been living off of Ontario Works (Welfare lol) for my whole fucking life. I'm actually sick of it. You know what the annual income for my family was until I turned 18? About 22k give or take a couple thousand. Now it's more like 18 or 17k, and that's because the National and Provincial Childrens Benefit (or whatever the fuck the official term for 'Baby Bonus' is) wore off. It's gonna drop again when TJ turns 18 too. Ramen noodles taste like shit.

Thing is, my mom has been back and forth with Welfare for years. There's no education for seeking jobs or even any help for it. They try to load you up with prescription drugs to solve any problems you might have (eg. ADHD, Depression, etc) but other than that they really make it difficult. The case worker my mom has is atrocious. She gives her personal opinion on most things and doesn't act professional in the least. She makes it difficult for my mom to feel okay with doing anything she thinks she might be able to do. She doesn't support her decisions to nurture any chance of her getting off the system, she just makes it harder by planting seeds of worry and doubt in my mother's mind. She hasn't given her any sort of tests that might help her decide what she wants/is capable of doing (like an aptitude test maybe?)

The only tests she has been given are mental tests, and they never show anything. They give her drugs to test her mentality to see if they benefit her, but nothing ever works.

Now I really, really don't have a clue what goes on with my mother, as she ping-pongs between ideas of what she wants to do so easily (one month she says she'll be a nurse, the next a car mechanic, etc.) but I really wish there was a way she could have figured this out sooner so my childhood wouldn't have been one of so much uncertainty ...He types in his 2-bedroom apartment using the internet Welfare pays for... Maybe this is my mother's fault for having 3 more children she couldn't afford, but at this point the only chance of my mother getting any source of income is off of disability (she's 55 now) and welfare. She's getting to that age where most people are starting to retire.

I don't know if this was her subconsciously evading any responsibility all this time, but she hasn't worked a single day in her life since she had me. Not really. Even if we were poor she's always saying things like "I'll get a job!" but never actually doing it. The only job she ever actually had, she had to quit because her body rejected her.

I'm personally afraid to leave for College because once I do, she's going to be living in the back of a house eating cat food for the rest of her life. I'm not sure whether to steel my heart and not let her drag me down with her debt, and get the hell away from my family and try to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to me, or to find some way to support her. The latter is extremely foolish in my opinion but I have a hard time coming to terms with the former. I feel like I am on that hairline between becoming dependent or independent from the system, and the choice is up to me. Is it even okay do turn your back on someone who raised you from a child, fought for you, and then suffered for you? Is it okay to leave them like that? There's nothing I can do but succeed I guess, and maybe that's the best way to use her sacrifice, but seriously, it feels like shit.

I don't even know why I typed this up. I already typed something similar and decided not to post it, but I think that it might shed some light on to what Welfare is actually being used for, and what problems the system has with getting people off of it. I don't think my mother is a victim of the system, I think that she's a weak fool. But still I think that even fools can be redirected into a job that suits them, and Welfare failed to help her realize her potential. Which sucks, because she's just been a leech all this time, and she could have been a valuable tool employee for some company. I pray I don't end up the same way.

edit:
fuxsakes why do I keep getting planted at the top of pages q_q

[Dynam0]

Re: My rant on government benefits

Eliminating poverty/diminishing the lower class is a worthy cause imo. I agree that there exist some government programs that are easily taken advantage of and perhaps this money is spent on "lost causes" like drug addicts and other drains on society. On a general level though, people's tax dollars are better spent reducing poverty than buying an extra television set for their households.

Obviously communism isn't the way to go, but I believe that tightening the gap between classes such that poverty is at a minimum is the best way to go.

[Cavernio]

Re: My rant on government benefits

I don't think my mother is a victim of the system, I think that she's a weak fool. But still I think that even fools can be redirected into a job that suits them, and Welfare failed to help her realize her potential. Which sucks, because she's just been a leech all this time, and she could have been a valuable tool employee for some company. I pray I don't end up the same way.

Yeah, raising 4 kids, such a weakling. 60 years ago it would have been an exceptional person to single-handedly raise 4 kids and have a job. And now you're a weakling and a leech if you don't work while doing it even though you have mental health issues.


I absolutely detest that someone's devalued if they don't make money in our society.
I hate that seemingly everyone who bitches about the system is bitching about someone who has mental illness who is abusing the system, or just someone with a mental illness who is weak. I mean I really, really hate it. There's no way, shape or form that the stigma of mental illness well EVER be overcome if we continually value people on whether they have a paying job or not.
Like, it boils down to, if someone loves you and cares about you and supports you, no one cares really that you're not working, you're still a person who still has worth. But if there's no one who wants to help you, and even moreso if there are people who will help you but only reluctantly and who will do it while looking down on you, you suddenly are a problem, a horrible lazy person.

Fuck this really fucking gets to me. I freakin hate that for over a decade I've been sick, physically ill, but oh no no, because it's been unknown, I'm viewed as being lazy, not trying. The moment I have a medical diagnosis that's not merely a mental illness? Now it's 'oh wow, you're sick. I can be kind and decent to you again because you're not just using me for money.' 100% perception of how other's perceive me, and it hugely affects my own perception of myself. And no matter how often I told myself 'you're not well, you know you're not', I still took it to heart that I was just being lazy, it still made me struggle more, fed into depression, and importantly, I didn't really accomplish anymore, and what I did accomplish I wasn't even proud of because it was never enough.
And yet, we still judge and say 'this person is lazy and a leech and they can just try harder and they'll be able to do something.' Why is the assumption that if someone's not succeeding, that they're not trying hard enough versus they have to try harder? Why is it not the assumption that everyone generally tries as hard and puts forth close to as much effort as the next person, and that the actual ability itself is what's different?

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: My rant on government benefits

no I'm absolutely certain she could have tried harder. I understand the sentiment. But I've caught her saying things like "I've wasted my time" and the like. If she would've chosen one thing and stuck with it, she wouldn't have had any problems. Whether or not mental illness has anything to do with that has yet to be proven.

btw she's had 6. 3 from the previous marriage (from where Mike came from) and then 3 from which I came from. I was an accident. She was pretty much forced/guilted into having sex. She may have been a victim of circumstance, but I can't help but think that she had more choice than others do.

My mom says that she might've continued on to become a drug addict and died, but I'm pretty certain if I didn't come along she wouldn't have been locked in an 8 year long abusive relationship. That's nearly a whole decade she could have used for studying. It takes 4 years in college on average to train for a job.

edit: I wont deny that she's been a strong person being able to raise us alone for over 17 years, but that's probably the reason I think she should have been easily able to get some sort of a job and stick with it.

also about the childcare shit from the other thread, this is partly why I know how hard it is to take care of children alone.

edit2: the reason she didn't train earlier was because she couldn't trust us with a babysitter. We would've been fine. I was practically forced to be the mature sibling/young parent child anyway. She could have damn well done as she pleased and it would've worked out fine. Maybe that's Anxiety kicking in, but Welfare could have caught that with a test and given her drugs. God knows how many different ones they've given her in the last 5 years for stupid things that didn't pan out.

[adlp]

Re: My rant on government benefits

Obviously communism isn't the way to go, but I believe that tightening the gap between classes such that poverty is at a minimum is the best way to go.

the problem is you can't legislate the poor into prosperity

[Afrobean]

Re: My rant on government benefits

I don't know any way to 'properly treat' bipolar disorder. I don't even know any bi-polar specific drugs, they're either antidepressants, anti-psychotics, or lithium, which is an anti-manic. What sort of knowledge do you have about the efficacy of mental illness treatments? Properly treated mental illness, in my jaded view, is nearly an oxymoron.

Well, if this person was getting psychological counseling, saw a doctor who could get her appropriate drugs as necessary, and then actually TAKE the appropriate drugs prescribed to her, she would most likely be doing better.

Or rather, she could be a contributing member of society. She wouldn't be doing better. She'd probably be doing worse. It is better for her to live as she does than to even TRY to be a contributing member of society.

there's hardly any money to be made when you get it.

There's apparently enough if you game the system right. I'm not sure how she does it, but she does, and it certainly isn't completely thanks to her selling the prescription drugs she should be taking herself.

I don't know the exact numbers she takes in, but they're well-off enough to own a house, feed 3 children, buy a new car, and buy a house-full of new furniture. Neither of the family's "providers" have had any employment of any kind for years.

Also, I'm kinda glad that simply being a crappy person isn't enough for you to not get money.

These people do not deserve money. They deserve to be in jail. I am not even remotely joking. I've never witnessed it, but the way the rest of my girlfriend's family talks, it sounds like the children are literally beaten. These people are irresponsible drains on society who deserve to have their children taken away and to be thrown in jail. They do NOT deserve ANY special treatment from the government.

[Dynam0]

Re: My rant on government benefits

Yeah, raising 4 kids, such a weakling. 60 years ago it would have been an exceptional person to single-handedly raise 4 kids and have a job. And now you're a weakling and a leech if you don't work while doing it even though you have mental health issues.


I absolutely detest that someone's devalued if they don't make money in our society.
I hate that seemingly everyone who bitches about the system is bitching about someone who has mental illness who is abusing the system, or just someone with a mental illness who is weak. I mean I really, really hate it. There's no way, shape or form that the stigma of mental illness well EVER be overcome if we continually value people on whether they have a paying job or not.
Like, it boils down to, if someone loves you and cares about you and supports you, no one cares really that you're not working, you're still a person who still has worth. But if there's no one who wants to help you, and even moreso if there are people who will help you but only reluctantly and who will do it while looking down on you, you suddenly are a problem, a horrible lazy person.

Fuck this really fucking gets to me. I freakin hate that for over a decade I've been sick, physically ill, but oh no no, because it's been unknown, I'm viewed as being lazy, not trying. The moment I have a medical diagnosis that's not merely a mental illness? Now it's 'oh wow, you're sick. I can be kind and decent to you again because you're not just using me for money.' 100% perception of how other's perceive me, and it hugely affects my own perception of myself. And no matter how often I told myself 'you're not well, you know you're not', I still took it to heart that I was just being lazy, it still made me struggle more, fed into depression, and importantly, I didn't really accomplish anymore, and what I did accomplish I wasn't even proud of because it was never enough.
And yet, we still judge and say 'this person is lazy and a leech and they can just try harder and they'll be able to do something.' Why is the assumption that if someone's not succeeding, that they're not trying hard enough versus they have to try harder? Why is it not the assumption that everyone generally tries as hard and puts forth close to as much effort as the next person, and that the actual ability itself is what's different?

The problem with mental illness is that all the medication in the world won't 'cure' the person affected by it. It's still there every day and the real cure has to come from within from the person changing how they feel about themselves eventually. Perspectives on this topic are polar opposites because depression is such a powerful state of mind and it's quite easy for those who haven't experienced it to label someone affected as weak, lazy, or sorry for themselves etc. On the other hand, the person trying to reach out to someone affected feels powerless to help them and it becomes very frustrating.

So on one side you have someone who is sick and needs help, who despite trying everything has no options, and on the other side you have a group that want only the best for the sick person but ultimately can't do a thing to help them. I think the way depression is addressed needs to be corrected...it's clearly an illness that needs to be treated by clinicians or therapists as a serious health problem and not an emotion that the person needs to "get over". I said medication wasn't the cure because it isn't, but it can certainly be a push in the right direction so that eventually the person can start working on changing his or her beliefs.

[Cavernio]

Re: My rant on government benefits

no I'm absolutely certain she could have tried harder. I understand the sentiment. But I've caught her saying things like "I've wasted my time" and the like. If she would've chosen one thing and stuck with it, she wouldn't have had any problems.

The fact that someone's AWARE that they're disorganized, not working, are using financial support when they themselves perceive that there's a chance they might not absolutely need it, is hardly proof of anything. I mean, you've already said that she kept saying 'I'll get a job'. The impression I'm getting from you is such that, if you'd never caught her saying that you'd just be thinking 'oh she's lazy and feels no pressure to do anything' and you'd think even worse of her.

Whether or not mental illness has anything to do with that has yet to be proven.

And this is EXACTLY my point, and why what you're saying bothers me a lot. (Even though I do not know your mom at all and can only go by what you say about her.) You're showing your ignorance of what mental illness is, AND you're putting a burden of proof on her or someone else as somehow showing that there could be something physically awry in here brain would then excuse her behaviour or some such. But that's not how it works, her behaviour IS the gauge of her ability to function.

btw she's had 6. 3 from the previous marriage (from where Mike came from) and then 3 from which I came from. I was an accident. She was pretty much forced/guilted into having sex. She may have been a victim of circumstance, but I can't help but think that she had more choice than others do.

'I can't help but think that having a job is the most important thing a person can do'
I disagree with that sentiment under her circumstances, sorry. Raising her kids is more important, and it's her prerogative to raise her kids herself. AND it's kinda ridiculous to me that so many people working low wage jobs just end up paying someone else an even lower wage to look after their kids for them. That's preposterous as far as I'm concerned. It's laudible for her to have spent her time with you instead of going after training and then a job IMO.
Also 'more of a choice than others'. That's a rich statement. Now she's somehow MORE capable than other people.

My mom says that she might've continued on to become a drug addict and died, but I'm pretty certain if I didn't come along she wouldn't have been locked in an 8 year long abusive relationship. That's nearly a whole decade she could have used for studying. It takes 4 years in college on average to train for a job.

So now you're upset that in a hypothetical situation that didn't actually happen, she could forsee that she may not have changed her own addiction (and don't even get me started on addictions...there's exceedingly good reasons that addictive substances are illegal). Right. Makes perfect sense.

edit: I wont deny that she's been a strong person being able to raise us alone for over 17 years, but that's probably the reason I think she should have been easily able to get some sort of a job and stick with it.

Then she wouldn't have been raising 7 kids though, someone else would have. Why is it bad for the government to play the role of a financial support?? How is that different from having 1 working parent supporting the family financially in terms of how good of a person she is? Like, if she had a husband who worked, you wouldn't be holding her to the same standards as you are right now.

edit2: the reason she didn't train earlier was because she couldn't trust us with a babysitter. We would've been fine. I was practically forced to be the mature sibling/young parent child anyway. She could have damn well done as she pleased and it would've worked out fine. Maybe that's Anxiety kicking in, but Welfare could have caught that with a test and given her drugs. God knows how many different ones they've given her in the last 5 years for stupid things that didn't pan out.

SOMETHING could have been different, SOMEONE could have helped her, if they'd just tried the RIGHT cocktail of drugs that big pharma tells us is useful, if welfare was just acting like a doctor too, she would obviously have been FINE. Well that's not how it works, and that's not how it ever really works. The constant need to search for perfection of someone is a heavy burden on you and them.

You know what? You seem like a good, morally and socially responsible person. And that means she did a better job in her life compared to so many parents who had jobs. Cut her some slack.

The problem with mental illness is that all the medication in the world won't 'cure' the person affected by it. It's still there every day and the real cure has to come from within from the person changing how they feel about themselves eventually. Perspectives on this topic are polar opposites because depression is such a powerful state of mind and it's quite easy for those who haven't experienced it to label someone affected as weak, lazy, or sorry for themselves etc. On the other hand, the person trying to reach out to someone affected feels powerless to help them and it becomes very frustrating.

So on one side you have someone who is sick and needs help, who despite trying everything has no options, and on the other side you have a group that want only the best for the sick person but ultimately can't do a thing to help them. I think the way depression is addressed needs to be corrected...it's clearly an illness that needs to be treated by clinicians or therapists as a serious health problem and not an emotion that the person needs to "get over". I said medication wasn't the cure because it isn't, but it can certainly be a push in the right direction so that eventually the person can start working on changing his or her beliefs.

My depression was cured by finding out what seemed to have caused it. An autoimmune disease. Turns out my beliefs change when my body isn't attacking itself, and it doesn't have shit to do with 'my own inner change' or some other BS.
One's own inner change can only help one cope with themselves, and itself is not a cure either. Most mental illnesses aren't curable, period. Not just aren't curable by what someone else does to the person. We know very little about the majority of them, but I guarantee you it's not just some 'oh I've fixed myself' Namaste ideology crap that causes physiological depression to abate.

[Dynam0]

Re: My rant on government benefits

My depression was cured by finding out what seemed to have caused it. An autoimmune disease. Turns out my beliefs change when my body isn't attacking itself, and it doesn't have shit to do with 'my own inner change' or some other BS.
One's own inner change can only help one cope with themselves, and itself is not a cure either. Most mental illnesses aren't curable, period. Not just aren't curable by what someone else does to the person. We know very little about the majority of them, but I guarantee you it's not just some 'oh I've fixed myself' Namaste ideology crap that causes physiological depression to abate.

Being unhealthy would definitely aggravate a depressive state but you're shifting 100% of the 'blame' to an autoimmune disease. Depression is a deeper issue than that, otherwise everyone who has that disease also has depression and curing this disease cures depression. I see a great deal of defensiveness and negativity in your posts whenever you discuss something that you have personal experiences with; it makes you very difficult to exchange viewpoints with since you come down harshly on anyone with a difference in opinion. Also the "I've fixed myself Namaste ideology crap" is a coping mechanism a LOT of people recovering from mental illness use. I can at the very least tell you with certainty that keeping a closed mind is what prevents people from recovering and pushing forward.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: My rant on government benefits

'I can't help but think that having a job is the most important thing a person can do'
I disagree with that sentiment under her circumstances, sorry. Raising her kids is more important, and it's her prerogative to raise her kids herself. AND it's kinda ridiculous to me that so many people working low wage jobs just end up paying someone else an even lower wage to look after their kids for them. That's preposterous as far as I'm concerned. It's laudible for her to have spent her time with you instead of going after training and then a job IMO.

SOMETHING could have been different, SOMEONE could have helped her, if they'd just tried the RIGHT cocktail of drugs that big pharma tells us is useful, if welfare was just acting like a doctor too, she would obviously have been FINE. Well that's not how it works, and that's not how it ever really works. The constant need to search for perfection of someone is a heavy burden on you and them.

You know what? You seem like a good, morally and socially responsible person. And that means she did a better job in her life compared to so many parents who had jobs. Cut her some slack.

The reason I think she should've gotten a job is because she's always complaining and having hour long conversations with me about "where it might've gone wrong." It makes her truly upset and it's not helping her mental condition from what I see. I know that there are many paths in life that aren't prescribed by the government, but I feel like she should've gotten into one sooner because she's kicking herself. Whenever we can't afford something we need (this happens literally every day) she probably thinks about these things. She's gone so far as to threaten to sell her body to provide for us in the past. It's emotional and mental stress that she probably could've avoided.

Like, if she had a husband who worked, you wouldn't be holding her to the same standards as you are right now.

That's the thing. I don't hold my mother in contempt for her ability to parent, because while it's not orthodox, it still turned me into a proper adult. My father on the other hand, didn't need to be such an insufferable asshole throughout my childhood, and could've made things work. I'm not sure whether or not to go into this, because it's a whole other can of worms. He at least pays/paid child support...but Welfare takes that too and doesn't give us any bonus for it. As for getting a boyfriend, she at least had the intelligence to know that it likely wouldn't have turned out well because of her past two relationships, and had the restraint to keep that from happening to us again. She still wants one though.

The impression I'm getting from you is such that, if you'd never caught her saying that you'd just be thinking 'oh she's lazy and feels no pressure to do anything' and you'd think even worse of her.

I don't know where you're getting that from. I feel that way about her already. I at least understand why she is that way though. Her words do not change her actions.

You're putting a burden of proof on her or someone else as somehow showing that there could be something physically awry in her brain would then excuse her behaviour or some such. But that's not how it works, her behaviour IS the gauge of her ability to function.

So if I say that I stayed home for the last 6 days from school, which is completely true, that it's okay? That I'm not expected to perform as equal to someone else without mental illness? I don't know if I'm projecting my own ambitions onto my mom, but I don't think it's okay to let your mentality impede you from your true potential. Fighting my depression and other illnesses I may have could be a decision I can only make for myself, but I feel that my mom could've rose up against hers and fought.

Also 'more of a choice than others'. That's a rich statement. Now she's somehow MORE capable than other people.

My mom isn't Superman. My mom isn't Prime Minister of Canada. She can't do everything she wants to with the help of magic. But I still think that she's got higher intelligence and could do anything she wanted to if she tried hard enough. I don't know how hard it is to be my mom, and I don't know if she's completely capable of doing it, but if she is I really wish she would. Because listening to her face disappointment every day is heartbreaking when she could have ignored us and succeeded. I know she might've done the honourable thing, but that only works for people who are aware they did it. And I'm 99% certain my mother didn't willingly sacrifice herself to poverty.