The Wii is Here.

[Magewout]

Re: The Wii is Here.

My friends and I prefer to play grand prix and battle modes. 3-person races suck ass. Especially because I always win races.

Yes, red shells are better than bananas... unless you're in first place. Red shells are meaningless in first place (in Double Dash, at least, since you can't drop reds behind you in Double Dash). In fact, groups of 3 green shells are meaningless too. The only useful item you can get in first place is one green shell and bananas.

Red shells are also meaningless if you're in 2nd place and first place is snaking half the course ahead of you. Bananas help there again. Pop one in the middle of the track and bam! They have to either not snake right there, snake around it and muck with the trick for half a second, or hit it.

Yes, snaking requires "skill". So does racing for real.

You know how proud I felt when I beat Mirror Grand Prix on Double Dash? It was so hard I couldn't even get first on every race with a friend. It's not easy! I bet if I snaked, I'd've won every race. Where's the fun in that? I felt a sense of accomplishment when I won for real. You can't replicate that with snaking.

Afro, I'll reply to you later, don't really ahve the time to type a wall of text right now :P

@Squeek: You're forgetting that 3 shells of any kind in MK64 helps you to protect from items. You can hold 1 shell behind you and keep Z pressed until someone hits it with a red shell, or you could just press Z once, and have 3 shells going around you like a shield. I surely find the latter to be more easy, and it's really a matter of pure luck which one you get.

[Squeek]

Re: The Wii is Here.

Those people who suck should practice and get better, otherwise they should get used to losing. And eh, blue shells easily catch up on snakers.



It's fair to say that you haven't been in a lot of MK matches then. I've played thousands of games, both online with MKDS, and offline with 1-3 friends, from SMK up to MKDD. Have 1 or 2 friends be in last place, you'll see how many blue shells you'll have to dodge.

Further, of course items are a factor of luck. Because otherwise, every item would be equally strong. 3 red shells >>>>> 1 banana. And the equation you used is eh... bad. Of course you still have to hold the A button to move accellerate, it's still a racer.

Of course snaking requires skill, otherwise everyone would be able to do it, and everyone would be good at it. In fact, PRB snaking in MKDS requires even more skill.

My friends and I prefer to play grand prix and battle modes. 3-person races suck ass. Especially because I always win races.

Yes, red shells are better than bananas... unless you're in first place. Red shells are meaningless in first place (in Double Dash, at least, since you can't drop reds behind you in Double Dash). In fact, groups of 3 green shells are meaningless too. The only useful item you can get in first place is one green shell and bananas.

Red shells are also meaningless if you're in 2nd place and first place is snaking half the course ahead of you. Bananas help there again. Pop one in the middle of the track and bam! They have to either not snake right there, snake around it and muck with the trick for half a second, or hit it.

Yes, snaking requires "skill". So does racing for real.

You know how proud I felt when I beat Mirror Grand Prix on Double Dash? It was so hard I couldn't even get first on every race with a friend. It's not easy! I bet if I snaked, I'd've won every race. Where's the fun in that? I felt a sense of accomplishment when I won for real. You can't replicate that with snaking.

[Afrobean]

Re: The Wii is Here.

1) It's not because something isn't found in the instructions manual, that it's automatically a 'bad' thing to do it. I mean, lots of games have manuals that don't speak of certain techniques, which you have to find out for yourself. Further, I'd like to see you beat the staff ghosts in MKDS without snaking.

There's an enormous difference between an advanced technique and an abuse of an intended feature.

And the "wah, the game is too hard if we don't have this nonsensical unintended tactic". Remember: if the CPU doesn't do it on the hardest difficulty setting, it almost certainly was not an intended feature.

2) If you can't beat them, join them. Basically, what you want, is to take out something that requires skill (snaking), and give more weight to pure luck (items). What's the fun if you're obviously the best racer, but get hit by 2000 blue shells just before the finish? At least, when you're both snaking, you know you've been beaten by someone more skilled than you.

Is there no way to race someone without items? How about this: only play seriously against people you have an agreement with to not touch items. When playing others, take things lightly and don't worry if you get beaten out of pure luck, SINCE ALL THINGS IN LIFE, YOU WILL LOSE OCCASIONALLY JUST DUE TO BEING UNLUCKY.

And who cares if it requires skill WHEN IT MAKES NO SENSE. How would you feel if they made reversing go faster than forward as an intended feature to make recovering from mistakes easier, then other people abused it by reversing through the entire map? Would you really expect the next installment of the game to not do anything about the problem of people abusing it?

Like, ok, it's one thing to embrace the tactic when it's needed just to get by in online play, but to be mad about this problem being fixed is just stupid. It's OBVIOUSLY been proven an unintended feature. I don't care if you think they secretly put it in and didn't mention it in the manual and also didn't program the AI to use it, because guess what. With them officially making it impossible in the Wii game, they're saying in as few words that they had not intended this in the previous games. The same can be said of wave dashing in Melee; unintended feature is proven to be unintended in that it is removed in the most recent version of the game.

3) The max speed also applies to mini boosts. A 1/5 kart will have a slower boost than a 5/5 kart. This is why, on different courses, top MKDS players will use different karts, to have the best handling(and acceleration) vs. speed for that particular course. Otherwise, every world record would have been achieved with Dry Bones + Dry Bomber. But no, people are using the Yoshi Egg, and the Poltergust more and more, even though they have worse handling.

How does this matter? The tactic is has been proven to be an exploitation of the game's mechanics by the fact that it has been purposely avoided in the most recent game. Even if you can dispel the idea that it breaks game balance (which you didn't really do, by the way), it's still an unintended tactic that gives an unfair advantage compared to those who don't use it.

[Magewout]

Re: The Wii is Here.

How can you defend against it?

Items? Sorry. To fast to do that.
Not hitting things? Sorry, he's still faster.
Power slide every corner? He's got you beat.

Oh.. you mean by snaking too. Yeah.

What about those people who suck and don't know how to snake and people snake past them anyway just to win and gloat? Do you call that skill for beating them?

Those people who suck should practice and get better, otherwise they should get used to losing. And eh, blue shells easily catch up on snakers.

Yeah because I see 2,000 blue shells in a single race, let alone a single Cup match.

I think the record for number of times I've seen a blue shell hit me while I was in first place during a 16-race match in Mario Kart: Double Dash was two. And I still won both of those races. The blue shell is also a bomb, so I slowed down to make it hit 2nd place (the AI has that cheap catch-up when you're playing alone) and we both ate it.

You're one of those "items are luck" people. You have no hope. Items are part of Mario Kart, just like they're part of Super Smash Bros. They're not a factor of luck. There's an immense amount of skill involved. If it were luck, you wouldn't have to aim items or even know what they are. You just park your car on a respawning item box and use it over and over again, and you win the race! Right? Just like in Poker where you get dealt two aces every hand. You'll always win! Right?

Snaking doesn't require skill. Snaking requires a huge ego that must always win online games against random people for no reason, even if it means going outside the parameters of the game. Oh, and a thumb with callouses.

It's fair to say that you haven't been in a lot of MK matches then. I've played thousands of games, both online with MKDS, and offline with 1-3 friends, from SMK up to MKDD. Have 1 or 2 friends be in last place, you'll see how many blue shells you'll have to dodge.

Further, of course items are a factor of luck. Because otherwise, every item would be equally strong. 3 red shells >>>>> 1 banana. And the equation you used is eh... bad. Of course you still have to hold the A button to move accellerate, it's still a racer.

Of course snaking requires skill, otherwise everyone would be able to do it, and everyone would be good at it. In fact, PRB snaking in MKDS requires even more skill.

[Squeek]

Re: The Wii is Here.

Yeah because I see 2,000 blue shells in a single race, let alone a single Cup match.

I think the record for number of times I've seen a blue shell hit me while I was in first place during a 16-race match in Mario Kart: Double Dash was two. And I still won both of those races. The blue shell is also a bomb, so I slowed down to make it hit 2nd place (the AI has that cheap catch-up when you're playing alone) and we both ate it.

You're one of those "items are luck" people. You have no hope. Items are part of Mario Kart, just like they're part of Super Smash Bros. They're not a factor of luck. There's an immense amount of skill involved. If it were luck, you wouldn't have to aim items or even know what they are. You just park your car on a respawning item box and use it over and over again, and you win the race! Right? Just like in Poker where you get dealt two aces every hand. You'll always win! Right?

Snaking doesn't require skill. Snaking requires a huge ego that must always win online games against random people for no reason, even if it means going outside the parameters of the game. Oh, and a thumb with callouses.

[Telvanni_guard]

Re: The Wii is Here.

How can you defend against it?

Items? Sorry. To fast to do that.
Not hitting things? Sorry, he's still faster.
Power slide every corner? He's got you beat.

Oh.. you mean by snaking too. Yeah.

What about those people who suck and don't know how to snake and people snake past them anyway just to win and gloat? Do you call that skill for beating them?

[Magewout]

Re: The Wii is Here.

What's the fun if you're obviously the best racer, but someone snakes the entire race and wins?

Eh? Snaking is about the only thing in MK that requires a decent amount of skill, so how can you call yourself the best racer when you can't defend yourself against a snaker?

Personally, I start regularly, but as soon as I see someone snaking, there's nothing that stops me from doing it as well (and in 90% of the cases, beat him).

[Telvanni_guard]

Re: The Wii is Here.

What's the fun if you're obviously the best racer, but get hit by 2000 blue shells just before the finish?

What's the fun if you're obviously the best racer, but someone snakes the entire race and wins?

[Magewout]

Re: The Wii is Here.

Mal, there's more to this than just 'fantasy worlds should be able to do what they want'.

1) The purpose of the power slide boost was to pop you out of a power slide going the direction you want. The purpose was not to repeatedly go back and forth in order to pull ahead of your opponents. You know how I know? The AI power slides. The AI does not snake. If snaking was an intentional part of the game, you'd think they'd code it into the AI to give them a chance against you. But they didn't. It's not even in the instruction manual!

2) Anyone who's played Mario Kart DS online will tell you what it's like competing against snakers. Basically they get so far ahead of you that you can't even reach them with any items, including blue shells. If the course is pretty small, they will lap you. The point of the game is a go-kart race that uses items and character differences to separate drivers.

3) Anyone who snakes removes the purpose of items and the difference in character speed / acceleration. Power slide boosts keep you at a constant speed which is not based on the top speed of the character you use. Mario Kart uses a 6-star system. 1/5 means you have a low top speed and a high acceleration. 5/1 means you have a high top speed and a low acceleration. 3/3 means you're average. Snaking with a 1/5 character puts you at 5/5. 10 > 6. Thus, this is a break in the system.

1) It's not because something isn't found in the instructions manual, that it's automatically a 'bad' thing to do it. I mean, lots of games have manuals that don't speak of certain techniques, which you have to find out for yourself. Further, I'd like to see you beat the staff ghosts in MKDS without snaking.

2) If you can't beat them, join them. Basically, what you want, is to take out something that requires skill (snaking), and give more weight to pure luck (items). What's the fun if you're obviously the best racer, but get hit by 2000 blue shells just before the finish? At least, when you're both snaking, you know you've been beaten by someone more skilled than you.

3) The max speed also applies to mini boosts. A 1/5 kart will have a slower boost than a 5/5 kart. This is why, on different courses, top MKDS players will use different karts, to have the best handling(and acceleration) vs. speed for that particular course. Otherwise, every world record would have been achieved with Dry Bones + Dry Bomber. But no, people are using the Yoshi Egg, and the Poltergust more and more, even though they have worse handling.

[Squeek]

Re: The Wii is Here.

A video showing gameplay for Mario Kart says that, for whatever reason, you cannot drive bus-driver style. You must drive car-style.

That means you must hold the wheel vertically at all times.

I see less and less use for the Wii Wheel every second.

[ImEric12]

Re: The Wii is Here.

When you drive over zip patches in the ground, do you speed up in real life? Probably not, because they don't exist, yet you don't seem to have a problem with them being in the game.

Actually, there's a little patch of freeway near my house (I think it's between I-94 and I-75... Chris may have actually seen it before) that has lines on the road that make it look like a zip-booster patch, and I naturally speed up when I drive over it... which probably isn't good considering there's a sharpish turn immediately after.

So there's my relevant comment.
*sinks back into lurking shadows*

[Afrobean]

Re: The Wii is Here.

I'm almost positive it was in the instruction manual for Mario Kart for the SNES, which is how I learned about it.

They might have mentioned slide speed boosts, but I'm confident that they didn't say "hey you can swerve from side to side along a straightaway in order to gain additional speed."

Also: I never played Mario Kart very seriously, so I don't know if I've ever actually done this slide speed boost, although, at the same time, I don't believe I ever had a particularly hard time beating the computer. Does this work automatically or what?

ps I just realized how absurd it would be to swerve using the steering wheel shaped apparatus. It's one thing to move the control stick from side to side to abuse an oversight of an intended feature, but to literally move your hands in the same way you would in a real vehicle... that would be crazy looking.

[MalReynolds]

Re: The Wii is Here.

I'm almost positive it was in the instruction manual for Mario Kart for the SNES, which is how I learned about it.

[Squeek]

Re: The Wii is Here.

Mal, there's more to this than just 'fantasy worlds should be able to do what they want'.

1) The purpose of the power slide boost was to pop you out of a power slide going the direction you want. The purpose was not to repeatedly go back and forth in order to pull ahead of your opponents. You know how I know? The AI power slides. The AI does not snake. If snaking was an intentional part of the game, you'd think they'd code it into the AI to give them a chance against you. But they didn't. It's not even in the instruction manual!

2) Anyone who's played Mario Kart DS online will tell you what it's like competing against snakers. Basically they get so far ahead of you that you can't even reach them with any items, including blue shells. If the course is pretty small, they will lap you. The point of the game is a go-kart race that uses items and character differences to separate drivers.

3) Anyone who snakes removes the purpose of items and the difference in character speed / acceleration. Power slide boosts keep you at a constant speed which is not based on the top speed of the character you use. Mario Kart uses a 6-star system. 1/5 means you have a low top speed and a high acceleration. 5/1 means you have a high top speed and a low acceleration. 3/3 means you're average. Snaking with a 1/5 character puts you at 5/5. 10 > 6. Thus, this is a break in the system.

[Afrobean]

Re: The Wii is Here.

Hokay, but they didn't choose to implement any of that stuff. The sliding boost was in Super Mario Kart for the SNES. They did choose to implement it, therefore, fantasy logic does come into play.

If they had programmed rolls to R twice, then that's the way it would be. It would be puzzling, but it would be part of the game.

When functions of games are used in unexpected ways, it's reasonable to expect them to be changed/elaborated/removed in later versions. They're NOT removing this boost, they're just making it impossible to waggle back and forth to go faster. They're also rewarding longer lasting slides with bigger speed boosts. See, those things make sense in the fantastical sense. Short slide gives small speed boost, long slide gives big speed boost.

And, for example, the case of wave dashing in Melee. People used directional air dodging combined with short hops to abuse an oversight in the physics engine. This does not mean that future versions of the series would not correct the player's ability to take advantage of this intended feature in an unexpected way. Notice that in Brawl, they have removed directional air dodging, but neutral air dodging and short hops are still in. I am quite sure that if directional air dodging was still possible, wave dashing would as well, as we have already seen players mimicking the same sort of sliding motion by doing other actions (throwing an item while in the middle of rolling has a similar sliding effect I believe), so it is quite obvious in my opinion that they knowingly removed directional air dodging just for that. It's a shame that they couldn't just fix it to not slide like that, because I had recently become a big fan of directional air dodging, but I can totally see why they did it. Unexpected use of an intended feature made for the exploitation of the physics engine which apparently could not be overcome by simply increasing the "friction" when a player air dodges into the ground.