Controller concept development

[Arch0wl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdtojQGlEE

A friend (Malcolm, internet name "Bluhr") and I are developing this into a controller for index-style singles and doubles play. This video shows some patterns you could do on a setup like this that you might not be able to do on index, and how this setup is much more comfortable than index.

The basic idea is this:

1. Even though the perceived distance between pop'n buttons and keyboard keys is much greater, the muscular exertion required to move across pop'n buttons vs. an index setup is surprisingly equivalent. However, fast movements on pop'n buttons look much more entertaining to watch and feel much more satisfying.

2. Index doubles is not a thing, but could be, since doubles is enabled by default in 3.9, and the pattern potential is massive.

3. While it is true that something like this:



(credit: Carlos / Wayward Vagabond)

Would allow for far more natural movements across eight keys, we chose two DDR-style setups for doubles because

(a) most people are already familiar with this format, both in terms of play and stepfile design
(b) this allows for direct carryover from DDR/ITG doubles charts, as well as mild carryover from IIDX/solo charts
(c) this allows for 4-button singles, while the above setup only works for 8-button singles
(d) this allows for 2-player, which the above also does not

---

So, with that said, the circles in the video are a little bit smaller than they should be. They're about 82.5mm and we'll be using 100mm buttons. However, I think the 100mm diameter includes the outside rim, so the button itself might be about 85 or 90mm -- not a huge difference, really, but slightly noticeable.

These are the dome buttons we're using. Economy buttons are available, but I've read reviews and have heard that they rattle, which is not something you want when you're doing 16th stream at 240+ bpm, so I'm opting for the same buttons used in pop'n controllers which I know for a fact are durable.

We are negotiating how to do start/exit/movement buttons. Something like this might be good, but since navigation buttons would not need to adhere to nearly the same durability standards as the dome buttons, we could use these

---

Side note: if there is enough interest in this, we might be able to make extra to sell to all of you. I have no idea what the price would be, and it would depend on how much labor is involved. We could also make 4-button controllers if you just want to play singles. (Shipping internationally wouldn't be a problem, but obviously it's going to cost a lot more.)

I have used both Ransai and official Konami Pop'n Music ASC controllers before. Ransai controllers do not have a comfortable distance between buttons -- they're farther apart than the buttons on the official Pop'n Music arcade machine. Also, both the Ransai and Konami ASC are extremely noisy, and have to be padded to reduce noise. Both of us live in houses where we stay up late while other people sleep, so we're conscious of noise and will make sure that there is none.

That's about it so far. Let me know what you think.

[Wayward Vagabond]

That drawing isn't credited, how dare you.

[Rapta]

The video made me **** myself due to your hand movements

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

That drawing isn't credited, how dare you.

oops, edited

Originally Posted by Rapta

The video made me **** myself due to your hand movements

I honestly forget how fast my hands look sometimes until I see it on video

when I'm doing the movements themselves I don't think much of it

[Kraezymann]

- Is your controller area going to be as big as the white box too? Or do you plan on taking out any excess space?
- By movement buttons do you mean the left/right song selection-type movement?
- What sorts of ideas do you have regarding button noise? I think on IIDX controllers the cardboard underneath helped. Would another idea like that, or perhaps cloth be useful?
- Are there many 8key packs out there for people who would like to start playing, and would you be working on more for the people who would be buying something like this?

This looks very interesting; gonna have to save up.

[Arch0wl]

Q: Is your controller area going to be as big as the white box too? Or do you plan on taking out any excess space?

A: The controller will be bigger than that piece of paper, probably, since the circles in that video are 82.5mm and the dome buttons themselves are somewhere between 85mm and 90mm with a 10-15mm outside barrier.

Q: By movement buttons do you mean the left/right song selection-type movement?

A: Yes; the buttons you use to navigate menus.

Q: What sorts of ideas do you have regarding button noise? I think on IIDX controllers the cardboard underneath helped. Would another idea like that, or perhaps cloth be useful?

A: Cardboard, padding, whatever we can think of. I'm open to suggestions and will try new ideas.

Q: Are there many 8key packs out there for people who would like to start playing?

A: Right now, the extent of 8key charts are doubles charts on ITG/DDR. You could also convert IIDX/O2Jam/Solo charts, but that would take some time and is a project on its own.

Q: Would you be working on more simfile packs for the people who would be buying something like this?

A: Absolutely. I'm going to make it a point to have one of these at home just for that purpose.

[Rapta]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

Q: Is your controller area going to be as big as the white box too? Or do you plan on taking out any excess space?

A: The controller will be bigger than that piece of paper, probably, since the circles in that video are 82.5mm and the dome buttons themselves are somewhere between 85mm and 90mm with a 10-15mm outside barrier.

Q: By movement buttons do you mean the left/right song selection-type movement?

A: Yes; the buttons you use to navigate menus.

Q: What sorts of ideas do you have regarding button noise? I think on IIDX controllers the cardboard underneath helped. Would another idea like that, or perhaps cloth be useful?

A: Cardboard, padding, whatever we can think of. I'm open to suggestions and will try new ideas.

Q: Are there many 8key packs out there for people who would like to start playing?

A: Right now, the extent of 8key charts are doubles charts on ITG/DDR. You could also convert IIDX/O2Jam/Solo charts, but that would take some time and is a project on its own.

Q: Would you be working on more simfile packs for the people who would be buying something like this?

A: Absolutely. I'm going to make it a point to have one of these at home just for that purpose.

I have a question. Why are 2 Q's bold and the rest not? .-.

Also how expensive would this be? Do you have an idea? I don't know about other 8key 'controllers' but your hand movements look hilarious enough to buy and try

[Kraezymann]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

A: Yes; the buttons you use to navigate menus.

Any particular reason you don't just want to use the far left/right buttons on the controller?

[_Juli_]

I like this. This has great potential.

[Arch0wl]

Q: Why are 2 Q's bold and the rest not?

A: DHD

Q: Also how expensive would this be? Do you have an idea?

Depends on the cost of parts. Ransais use to sell for I think $300, DJ DAO for $350, and the Konami ASC for about $325.

I really want to be able to do $190 + shipping, but I have no idea how much labor time will be or how much the parts will cost. Let's peg it at $250 + shipping for now.

If good index players are willing to stream / post videos / generally showcase their use of the controller and include a link to us somewhere, then we could offer a seriously reduced price. This would be for a limited time, though.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Kraezymann

Any particular reason you don't just want to use the far left/right buttons on the controller?

No particular reason. We'll talk that over, since the same 4 buttons you use to play are also used for navigation. It'd streamline things severely.

[YoshL]

[Wayward Vagabond]

Daaang

Also I was joking about being credited but thanks.

Like I told you on fb this owns

[Jousway]

I could build a controller like this in real right now if I wanted haha, got all dem shits

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by YoshL

So I looked into this controller, because I'm curious about how this would differ from the one we're designing, and there are several major differences that matter for someone who plays Stepmania.

1. On many versions of the controller, what would be the up/down arrows are really close to what would be the left/right arrows. This makes crossovers or anything like this much more awkward at high speeds, and this is especially true for patterns like left-up-left-down-repeat or right-up-right-down-repeat.

You can see that here:



2. On the controllers where this isn't the case, what would be the left-side right arrow and right-side left arrow are too far apart to make doubles feasible.

3. Some controllers get the spacing perfectly right, but they're mini controllers.

---

Either way, I'm going to be testing these to make sure that the dimensions and distance between buttons make intuitive sense for extremely hard index charts. I'm not going to produce something where it's an awkward transition from index to larger buttons.

Considering how much experience I have with this playstyle, I can guarantee you that it will be customized to maximize performance on the highest difficulties of index. If anything feels off, I won't sell the controller.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by Jousway

I could build a controller like this in real right now if I wanted haha, got all dem shits

If you do, let us know how you did it. I'm open to feedback and ideas.

[YoshL]

that was pretty much exactly my question lol, the differences between what i posted and what you're designing

[Kyzentun]

I actually have a couple friends that put together a pair of 4 button controllers like that in a cabinet and put OITG on it ~4 years ago. It's pretty fun to play on, even though they separated the two sides too much for double to be easy.
It's been extremely popular at Anime Banzai every year, and gets a fair amount of play in the local arcade it's normally in.

Edit: You can't have the same controller work well for two people playing 4 button and one person playing 8 button. If the buttons are close enough for one person to play 8 buttons easily, it's too cramped for two people to facing forward. If the buttons are spaced to allow two people to fit next to each other, the gap in the middle makes one person playing 8 button awkward.

[FF_rules]

Originally Posted by Kyzentun

Edit: You can't have the same controller work well for two people playing 4 button and one person playing 8 button.

Could you somehow implement a slide/filler block where you can easily remove the excess sides and spread the panels apart and then put the filler sides in the center to make a 2 player 4 button setup? It won't look as aesthetically pleasing as a solid acrylic cabinet or such but it solves the problem for people who just want to play 2 player 4 button (Basically; separate blocks for each 4 button set up that can be moved -The method of moving is up for debate; or not at all) /2cents

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

If you do, let us know how you did it. I'm open to feedback and ideas.

actually its quite easy seeing I have made controllers before like my solomania controller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jonyaC-vWkQ

like just make the case out of wood, thats the easy part, as for the rest

for a pcb controller just get a xin-mo http://www.xin-mo.com/?page_id=38 its cheap small, and easy to reuse, because no soldering, perfect for beginners, if you're in NL as me you can get it at a store I get all my stuff
http://www.arcadewinkel.nl/component...roller-1speler

as for the buttons get some big dome pushbuttons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...ome+Pushbutton
they arnt to expensive and are p much close to pop'n music buttons
again if you're in NL you can get them a lot cheaper at
http://www.arcadewinkel.nl/besturing...groot-verlicht

if you are wondering about the size, this is how big they are
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1jd...utu.be&t=2m38s


so ya its basicly getting the same buttons as Pop'n music, and a cheap controller