Old 08-3-2018, 07:10 PM   #1
Xiz
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Default TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

Hello. I'm looking to evolve C9++

What I have below seems to work and I have been testing it for a bit now but would like more critique / thoughts. I've talked with sunfan about this and he suggests to do a version without two wolf factions. I wanna know peoples thoughts on this?


tl;dr - Everything new from C9++ to C9^3/C9+++ is in RED.


Mechanics:


This setup uses Daystart.
Serial Killer chooses Investigation Immunity or 1-shot Vest pregame.
Cops are guaranteed to be sane
Cops get results in the form of Town/Antitown or Innocent/Guilty - Serial Killers show up as Antitown/Guilty
Innocent Child is revealed at the start of Day 1 by the host
Doctors prevent one night kill
Kills are indistinguishable - do not use varying flavor for mafia, Vigilante, or Serial Killer night kills
Mafia Roleblocker cannot kill AND block in the same night
50% of games will have a serial killer
50% of games will have two scum factions
It's possible to have both two scum and a SK, or neither.


Randomization:


The host randomly chooses [Player Size 2 (Round Up)] numbers between 1-100.
  • 20 Players, 10 Rolls
  • 19 Players, 10 Rolls
  • 18 Players, 9 Rolls
  • 17 Players, 9 Rolls
  • 16 Players, 8 Rolls
  • 15 Players, 8 Rolls
  • 14 Players, 7 Rolls
  • 13 Players, 7 Rolls



1-50 = T (Town)
51-65 = C (Cop)
66-75 = D (Doctor)
76-80 = V (Vigilante)
86-95 = M (Mason)
96-100=B (Blocker)




Setup Determination:


Powerroles are inserted into the setup depending on how many of each letter are generated. For example, when looking at the C list, look at how many Cs you recieved. If you get no Cs, do not add any roles from the C list (exception: T list) If you get three Cs, look at where it says CCC and add the corresponding powerroles into the game. In this case, add a Cop and a 1-Shot Cop. New: Roles are broken up into points. A Half role is considered one point, while a full role is considered two points. However many points there are to the town side, that is determined on the mafia side.

Cop Roles:

C= 1-Shot Cop (1)
CC = Cop (2)
CCC = Cop, 1-Shot Cop (3)
CCCC = 2 Cops (4)
CCCCC = 2 Cops, 1-shot Cop (5)
CCCCCC = 3 Cops (6)

Doctor Roles:
D = Doctor (2)
DD = Doctor, 1-Shot Doctor (3)
DDD = 2 Doctors (4)
DDDD = 2 Doctors, 1-Shot Doctor (5)
DDDDD = 3 Doctors (6)
DDDDDD = 3 Doctors, 1-Shot Doctor (7)

Vigilante Roles:
V = 1-Shot Vigilante (1)
VV = Vigilante (2)
VVV = Vigilante, 1-Shot Vigilante (3)
VVVV = 2 Vigilantes (4)
VVVVV = 2 Vigilantes, 1-Shot Vigilante (5)

Mason Roles:
M = Innocent Child (1)
MM = 2 Masons (2)
MMM = 2 Masons + Innocent Child (3)
MMMM = 3 Masons (4)
MMMMM = 2 Masons, + 2 Masons (5)

Blocker Roles:
B = Roleblocker (2)
BB = Roleblocker + 1-Shot Roleblocker (3)
BBB = 2 Roleblockers (4)
BBBB = 2 Roleblockers + 1-Shot Roleblocker (5)
BBBBB = 3 Roleblockers (6)



Scum Roles for 10 Rolls


0 = 4 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Serial Killer (1-1=0)
1 = 4 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather (1=1)
2 = 3 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Serial Killer (2+1-1=2)
3 = 3 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1=3)
4 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+1+2-1=4)
5 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1+2=5)
6 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 2 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=6)
7 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 2 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+2+2+2-1=7)
8 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 2 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=8)
9 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, Wolf Godfather, Wolf Roleblocker, Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Vanilla, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Seer, Serial Killer (1+2+2+1+2+2-1=9)
10 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, Wolf Godfather, Wolf Roleblocker, Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Vanilla, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Seer, Serial Killer (1+2+2+1+2+2=10)

Examples:

Example A - 20 Players:

19, 30, 92, 36, 63, 1, 36, 25, 45, 76

TTTTTTTC(1)V(1)B(2) = 4 points

Setup is:
1 1-Shot Cop
1 1-Shot Vigi
1 Blocker
2 Wolf Vanilla
1 Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
1 Serial Killer
12 Vanilla Town



Example B - 21 Players:


73, 14, 84, 77, 71, 43, 54, 80, 91, 55

TTCCDDVVVM = 9

Setup is:
1 Cop
1 Doctor
1 1-Shot Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 1-Shot Vigilante
1 Innocent Child
1 Wolf Vanilla
1 Wolf Godfather
1 Wolf Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
1 Mafia Vanilla
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Seer
1 Serial Killer
6 Vanilla Town


Example C - 19 Players:

77, 38, 74, 28, 9, 60, 28, 11, 100, 49

TTTTTTCDVB = 6

Setup is:

1 1-Shot Cop
1 Doctor
1 1-Shot Vigilante
1 Blocker
2 Wolf Vanilla
1 Wolf Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
2 Mafia Vanilla
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Seer
7 Vanilla Town


========================================
========================================

Scum Roles for 9 Rolls:
0 = 3 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Serial Killer (1-1=0)
1 = 3 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather (1=1)
2 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Serial Killer (2+1-1=2)
3 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1=3)
4 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+1+2-1=4)
5 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1+2=5)
6 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=6)
7 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+2+2+2-1=7)
8 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Vanilla, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=8)
9 = Wolf Godfather, Wolf Roleblocker, Wolf Seer, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Seer, Serial Killer (1+2+2+1+2+2-1=9)
10 = Wolf Godfather, Wolf Roleblocker, Wolf Seer, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Roleblocker Mafia Seer, Serial Killer (1+2+2+1+2+2=10)

Examples:

Example D - 17 Players:

93, 27, 47, 2, 58, 72, 71, 10, 44

TTTTTCDDM = 5

Setup is:

1 1-Shot Cop
1 Doctor
1 1-Shot Doctor
1 Innocent Child
1 Wolf Vanilla
1 Godfather
1 Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
9 Vanilla Town


Example E - 17 Players:

7, 64, 27, 73, 22, 50, 18, 30, 2

TTTTTTTCD = 3

Setup is:

1 1-Shot Cop
1 Doctor
2 Vanilla Wolf
1 Godfather
1 Roleblocker
1 Serial Killer
10 Vanilla Town


Example F - 18 Players:

95, 28, 94, 91, 3, 87, 38, 75, 21

TTTTDMMM = 5

1 Doctor
1 Mason A
1 Mason B
1 Mason C
1 Wolf Vanilla
1 Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
1 Serial Killer
10 Vanilla Town

[/spoiler]

========================================
========================================

Scum Roles for 7 Rolls:

0 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Serial Killer (1-1=0)
1 = 2 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather (1=1)
2 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Serial Killer (2+1-1=2)
3 = 1 Wolf Vanilla, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1=3)
4 = 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+1+2-1=4)
5 = 1 Godfather, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer (2+1+2=5)
6 = 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=6)
7 = 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer, 1 Serial Killer (2+2+2+2-1=7)
8 = 1 Wolf Roleblocker, 1 Wolf Seer, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Seer (2+2+2+2=8)


Example G - 14 Players


7, 39, 76, 46, 55, 53, 27

TTTTCCV (3)

Setup is:

1 Cop
1 1-Shot Vigilante
1 Wolf Vanilla
1 Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
9 Vanilla Town


Example H - 13 Players


84, 59, 75, 8, 66, 66, 91

TCDDDVM = 7

Setup is:

1 1-Shot Cop
2 Doctors
1 1-Shot Vigilante
1 Innocent Child
1 Wolf Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
1 Serial Killer
3 Vanilla Town


Example I - 13 Players

72, 94, 7, 49, 15, 51, 93

TTTCDMM = 5

Setup is:

1 1-Shot Cop
1 Doctor
1 Mason A
1 Mason A
1 Godfather
1 Roleblocker
1 Wolf Seer
6 Vanilla Town




Does this sound interested? Anyone have any thoughts or better ways of getting this done? Should this be abandoned? Should thesunfan finished updating the history of TWG and should be reminded of it until it leaves his signature?
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Old 08-3-2018, 08:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

i think i would also scrap the multiball idea
examples B and C just look like the worst to play

wolf seers are alignment seers? (as opposed to role seers)

if you're committed to the multiball, something i would do (i didn't see it noted) would be for any single-ball game that gets rolled, rand between the scumteam getting "mafia" or "wolf" flavor so the existence of a team with "mafia" flavor doesn't confirm multiball. that's probably obvious but might be worth saying in the details

i think the setup is slightly harder to understand than C9++ because of how the town roles have point values, but about the same to iterate on when trying to "solve" it, so that seems fine

just gonna leave this post as this for now i guess
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Old 08-3-2018, 08:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

I like it but I also don't know what I'm talking about
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Old 08-3-2018, 09:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

I've said it before and I will say it again:
fuck doctors
especially fuck doctors that c9++ generates, saving the same person 2 nights in a row is not ok
especially not full fucking doctors before 1-shot doctors are generated honestly what the fuck is that shit
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Old 08-3-2018, 09:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

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Originally Posted by the sun fan View Post
I've said it before and I will say it again:
fuck doctors
especially fuck doctors that c9++ generates, saving the same person 2 nights in a row is not ok
especially not full fucking doctors before 1-shot doctors are generated honestly what the fuck is that shit
can still do the thing i was suggesting where they scale slower, D = 1-shot doc
could also nerf the docs, and blockers while we're at it

i think cop being a range of 15 still isn't great but i think the original setup is in part balanced around that
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Old 08-3-2018, 10:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

Or nerfed doctor, I was playing with a formula with that
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Old 08-4-2018, 01:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php...-Fold_C9%2B%2B

i've hosted this before lol
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Old 08-4-2018, 02:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

I have the feeling that higher-point games favor town since the increased diversity of wolf/mafia roles kind of forces wolves and mafia to hunt each other more aggressively?
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Old 08-4-2018, 12:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

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I have the feeling that higher-point games favor town since the increased diversity of wolf/mafia roles kind of forces wolves and mafia to hunt each other more aggressively?
oh duh

I was talking to Xiz about this problem but they don't know that there's another team right?

the problem of wolves being the primary team and mafia being the secondary team (or vis versa) is solved by the host randing equally between the two which term is used for games in which there is only one scum team

but because they don't know there's another team the like 10 minutes of ranting I did at Xiz about multifaction scumteams is kinda void if they don't know that there's another team

EDIT: I think as a result of this, some of the lower valued (points wise) setups should be made more similar to the higher valued setups for the scumteam such that it is not easy to determine how likely it is that there are one or two scumteams
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Old 08-4-2018, 01:05 PM   #10
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I have the feeling that higher-point games favor town since the increased diversity of wolf/mafia roles kind of forces wolves and mafia to hunt each other more aggressively?
that's the idea, but i don't think it will shake out that way as written

at "worst" there can be 9 scum in 19 players, meaning with sufficient inaccuracy, town can very quickly lose control of the lynch and be forced to rely on the scum cannibalizing each other if they want it back

i think that's a very unfun game if you're town, other than strong townies may not die as readily

but reducing the overall scum numbers just confirms multiball to both scumteams so that doesn't work either

i want to analyze specific rands but i'm lazy

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Originally Posted by the sun fan View Post
oh duh

I was talking to Xiz about this problem but they don't know that there's another team right?

the problem of wolves being the primary team and mafia being the secondary team (or vis versa) is solved by the host randing equally between the two which term is used for games in which there is only one scum team

but because they don't know there's another team the like 10 minutes of ranting I did at Xiz about multifaction scumteams is kinda void if they don't know that there's another team
right

i said randing the flavor for singleball was a good idea in my post lol
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Old 08-4-2018, 02:06 PM   #11
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if you're committed to the multiball, something i would do (i didn't see it noted) would be for any single-ball game that gets rolled, rand between the scumteam getting "mafia" or "wolf" flavor so the existence of a team with "mafia" flavor doesn't confirm multiball. that's probably obvious but might be worth saying in the details
I had no idea wtf you were talking about I have lived my whole life without knowing exactly what multiball is other than its something divisive on MU
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Old 08-4-2018, 02:45 PM   #12
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I had no idea wtf you were talking about I have lived my whole life without knowing exactly what multiball is other than its something divisive on MU
oh my bad

it's a mafiascum term too afaik and i've read way too much of the wiki

some people use it for any time there's more than 2 win conditions in the game (like wolves vs. SK vs. town) but i just use it in the context of multiple group scum teams and i think those games are rather unpleasant
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Old 08-5-2018, 02:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

Would multi-wolf faction work if there was a significant decrease in mafia / wolf numbers?
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Old 08-5-2018, 02:11 PM   #14
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qfe lol
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Old 08-5-2018, 02:17 PM   #15
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Would multi-wolf faction work if there was a significant decrease in mafia / wolf numbers?
for very, very large games, yes

for games that would likely be run on FFR, I think its a matter of picking your poison

2 on a team is too small and 3 on a team is too big in most games that would be run here
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Old 08-7-2018, 09:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: TWG C9^3 Setup/Suggestions

Ps I just need 1 more submission to put up host voting
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