TWG V Postgame Analysis

[GuidoHunter]

::hangs head::

Okay, something I would like to point out for future games: It is very illegal to share your role PMs. I got word this happened and was very sad at the ones who engaged in that practice. BY THAT TOKEN, asking specific questions about the PM (as in, "What's the last letter to every word of the second sentence of the regular human PM") is tantamount to showing a screenshot and should be just as illegal. This nearly screwed me from the start, and it apparently happened with someone else, too. I was quite disappointed with those who did that.

Now onto the game...

Night 1: Kefit dies. Why? He's a smart cookie, wasn't likely to be guardianed, and had an equal probability of being a special role as everyone else. Sorry, Kefit. We knew it'd suck for you, but we sure did laugh when we thought of it. We just narrowed down all the possibilities to you. =\

Day 1: Confusion amidst the humans. Kefit's death didn't give anyone anything to go on, so there was just the reactions of everyone that gave anyone any ideas. This is what got Snapps and evil on the block. A rules problem allowed Moogy to reveal his role without killing a human. This was great for the wolves because, although chardish didn't die from the vigilante attack, this set the humans back a day. Since they knew they were wrong on Day 1 they could only be sure that they were wrong again on Day 5, which is the earliest the wolves can win.

Night 2: We figured this was the most opportune time to kill chardish. No Tassel because we didn't want to waste a turn and prove his humanity, so we went with the next on the list. We had reason to believe that chardish was or could easily get in with Tassel, and that's an alliance we didn't want.

Day 2: Humans still had nothing to go on from the death, so it was back to looking at the posts. As usual, Qreepy looked suspicious, so he was voted off. I know that I made a very risky move with being the last to vote for him, but I really didn't want any more discussion to go on and him to get off the block.

Behind the scenes: It was during Day 2 that the fake seer idea came about...completely by accident. alain panicked when talking to chardish, got in a tight spot, and figured the best way out was to pull a fake seer stunt. Since chardish believed him and recommended him to Tassel, we thought about it a lot and figured that this was doable, especially since after telling Tassel, he believed alain.

Night 3: Blahblah dies. Same logic here. Smart person, trying to get people together. We obviously didn't consider Tassel since he was in our pockets.

It was at this point that we had this game in our hands and we were just waiting for the end of Day 5.

Day 3: Unfortunately for us, blahblah had spoken to LD before he was to be wolfed (unbeknownst to him) and revealed his role. LD had too many connections, and alain's cover was blown. We couldn't pin anything on blah since we proved his humanity by wolfing him, and once alain posted his "I lose" comment, we couldn't try any Tass/LD business. All the humans voted alain accordingly.

Night 4: Sleepless and I knew this would be extremely hard, so we had to drive a rift into any human alliances by taking out Tassel. Originally, we thought of Snapps, who was, pretty much, a confirmed human to Tassel (because alain "seered" him and it came back wolf). Snapps appeared to be in with the beans, too, so we didn't want the two groups coming together. Also, if we got rid of whorlichan, that's a smaller voting block for the Tassel side. However, getting rid of Tassel was the best possible thing to do, so we took a leap of faith, and our parachutes didn't open.

Day 4: Sleepless gets targeted, as do I. I see the game, so I start talking to Tassel like he talked to me last game and revealed his business. Now, had I know he would post it on the forums, I wouldn't have, but I just wanted to get started on the postgame with him. Because of this, I get killed, Kilga gives up on the game, and the humans come out victorious.

Ultimately, our first big mistake was starting the fake seer bit, but it would have worked extremely well had we not been so unlucky as to wolf blah. I had a great time working with alain and sleepless; they were perfect teammates. alain was excellent at being a human, especially since he's paid attention to all the games, and sleepless was fantastic to just hide in the shadows without anyone noticing. I didn't post as much as I should have, but that was partly because I haven't been awake during the busy hours. Also, I kind of quit watching my words by Day 3, so it wasn't hard to attract suspicion on Day 4. I think we played well until things went all to hell. But, that's what postgame is for.

Sigh.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[CypherToorima]

Bah. I don't like the pm thing. That was low. All well. The wolves played a good game, they just had some bad luck.

[Snapps]

Good job guys.

What I think still was funny is how you guys were like WOLF at me for like 5 pages when its obvious I was human. AND that I never said I had a special role. Lame XD

[GuidoHunter]

Like I finally said, Snapps, you may have been acting slightly wolfish, but it was obvious that you were human and just not watching your words. Same with evilbutterfly, but he was much more defensive, so it took a little more from his angle.

Naturally, I wasn't going to say any more than I did in y'all's defense because y'all were being targeted. The more the humans focus on y'all the less they look at us. Same with Qreepy. Had I been a human, I would have seen that he was being very human. It's just his nature to act/talk like that, but still y'all went after him.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Snapps]

I sure went after him y'all.

Now I get a signature yay :D

[sleeplessdragn]

o, the sig has evaded me again! curse the fates!

my continuing problem is that i am, by far, too paranoid about my posts. i am completely convinced that every single one of you is going to analyze my every word five times over. in fact, everytime i went to post ANYTHING i consulted guido or Alain, because i dont trust myself enough, and even still i started sweating after i pushed the submit button (no joke/sarcasm). this hinders my posting because i am constantly erasing words and replacing them for less conspicuous ones, or trying to get my post timing down to the second. this has cost me a lot and is why i can never post more then 2-3 sentences, unless its a weekend. in fact i should not even be posting this long rite now. also the fact that i am nearly irrelevent to this forum has gotten me in a tough position. to prove this statement i am willing to bet that this post is probably not going to be read. honestly i think tassel has the best position before any TWG even starts. he is smart enough where no one is really willing to allow him to be voted off because he would be important to the humans, and tricky enough to manipulate the entire forum. he is guaranteed life basically for the first two rounds, and then if he is seered human with a building alliance, essentially has already won. i dont see a possibility of beating this, and because i have tried to beat him when he was a human three times now, i think that statement has a little bit of validity.

i am thinking that i will not participate in any more these TWGs, i dont think that i am effective enough, and i find that i cannot hold any zealous drive for winning with 85% of my concentration on school. honestly, i think ill use the time that i would normally devote to TWG (and believe it or not, its about 1 to 1.5 hours per voting day; like i said, too paranoid, and i read into things too much) to producing new music for FFR. i think that it would be more effective usage of my time for myself and the FFR community.

P.S. i just spent five minutes debating whether this post is relevent or not. paranoia sucks, hardcore.

EDIT: a LOT of (sp) : [

[Kilgamayan]

my continuing problem is that i am, by far, too paranoid about my posts. i am completely convinced that every single one of you is going to analyze my every word five times over.

You're not the only one. I doubt I've ever made a player post in a game and not edited it immediately, even after spending 10 minutes touching it up.

[Tasselfoot]

see.... that is the problem. i go into every game open minded. i'm free spirited, and take many people into my counsel right from the start. from time to time (squeek in game 2, alain in game 5) this has backfired, but more often than not, its the humans who are the ones willing to come forward to work together. the wolves are too paranoid to try anything. so i get my alliance, and i march forward with it on the road to victory.

on another note.... i've lost all faith in Kilga. its nothing personal, but this game can't end until day 5. there are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. sleepless was still alive, and another human was going to die. your ending it earlier gave one extra person a victory. more than anything else, i'm a stickler for rules. (i bend rules, yes... as alot of you know... but i NEVER break them.)

and, yea..... the PM thing, i believe, has been resolved. i talked to both parties involved, and it was similar to zildjian. they were relatively new to the game, and didn't know any better.

i probably have more to add, but i'm tired. i'll post my convos with alain and guido tomorrow. they say everything that is important.

congrats to LD on his first win, roopert on his 3rd... and Whorli for now being 2/2 and the only repeat winner to never lose. not only is she squishy, but she makes an excellent puppet for this game. mucho amor hun. <3 oh yea, i'm now 4/5 with my side winning all 5 games.

[sleeplessdragn]

perhaps if i had more experience as a human i could have done a better job acting as one. un fourtunately the only experience ive had as a human was in the first game, when i was still a noob.

[Tasselfoot]

yea.... i didn't realive that sleepless. i knew you had been a wolf in twg3 and 5... forgot that you were on in twg2 also. my apologies for foiling all of your wolfish attempts.

[Kefit]

and, yea..... the PM thing, i believe, has been resolved. i talked to both parties involved, and it was similar to zildjian. they were relatively new to the game, and didn't know any better.

Bull****. There is no way that the person who contacted me could not have known he was breaking the rules, or at least bending them to such an extent that it was completely destroying the nature of the game.

Anyway, something has really bugged me about all of the games here - the seer. Whether it be a fake seer ploy, or a carefully constructed aim alliance, far too much of these games are revolving around the seer. The presence of the master wolf helps a bit, but not nearly enough.

My solution? Try a game with no seer. Have three masons instead. Also, skip the vigilante, as it's a role that more often than not ends up killing a human, and bring back the psychic.

Oh, and I fully agree with what Kilga did in ending the game. There was no point whatsoever to continue it. Nothing would have changed. Sleepless was going to die, and Guido right after him. Who gives a damn if another human would have died - in the end, no one really cares how many games you have managed to live through.

[Tasselfoot]

Kefit... the situation you are referring to is different than the one i am. two humans took SSs of their PMs and sent them to each other.

but, the situation that you mentioned has also been resolved.


and, to tell ya the truth.... the seer really didn't do anything this game (sorry blah)... except that if there was no seer, there would be no fake seer, so the whole game would have been different. i'm all for trying out a game with 3 masons. or, perhaps in TWG8 or TWG9... a 20 person game with 4 wolves, only the wolves are on 2 teams that don't know each other. 2 red wolves and 2 blue wolves.

guess we'll have to wait for LD/Cypher to let us know how TWG6 will be run.

[Kilgamayan]

i'm a stickler for rules. (i bend rules, yes... as alot of you know... but i NEVER break them.)

Which is why you were a part of the "asking about PM information" incident, right?

Of all the people in the game, you and chardish were the last two I expected to attempt that trick.

[GuidoHunter]

and, yea..... the PM thing, i believe, has been resolved. i talked to both parties involved, and it was similar to zildjian. they were relatively new to the game, and didn't know any better.

Bull****. There is no way that the person who contacted me could not have known he was breaking the rules, or at least bending them to such an extent that it was completely destroying the nature of the game.

Anyway, something has really bugged me about all of the games here - the seer. Whether it be a fake seer ploy, or a carefully constructed aim alliance, far too much of these games are revolving around the seer. The presence of the master wolf helps a bit, but not nearly enough.

My solution? Try a game with no seer. Have three masons instead. Also, skip the vigilante, as it's a role that more often than not ends up killing a human, and bring back the psychic.

Oh, and I fully agree with what Kilga did in ending the game. There was no point whatsoever to continue it. Nothing would have changed. Sleepless was going to die, and Guido right after him. Who gives a damn if another human would have died - in the end, no one really cares how many games you have managed to live through.

Kefit, Tassel was talking about the two who shared their PMs. Regarding the people who contacted us, I agree that they knew what they were doing, and hope it doesn't happen again.

I also agree about the seer being a bit too important, and about everything you said about the other roles. We need to mix this up.

And I know I wanted the game to hurry up and end, but Tassel has a point.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[sleeplessdragn]

yea.... i didn't realive that sleepless. i knew you had been a wolf in twg3 and 5... forgot that you were on in twg2 also. my apologies for foiling all of your wolfish attempts.

thus my fierce determination to take out tass, in multiple games.

[blahblah18]

personally I'm disgusted with Tasselfoot's actions in all these games.. he's cheated or attempted to in every game, and even though its been for my side it really upsets me because there should be some pride in yourself and the other people and ot not ruin the game for everyone else... Tass, I like you, I think you're a good guy and definately smart, but stop with the cheating .... its not worth it. I don't know if he should be allowed to play next game...

Don't possibly say that you're a stickler for the rules.. your PM thing with Chardish, your seeking out PM's... your talking to cypher when you were dead to give the answers... etcetera.... I'm pretty upset about all this

[lightdarkness]

it was never stated that what he did was against the rules. Rather clevor actually.

Will fixed

[flypie743]

clever*

And I agree with blah.

[Squeek]

This had to be the worst game in TWG history. It's a shame that Kilga had to host a whole slew of cheaters this time around with a potentially awesome story.

First of all, my opinion on the Moogy situation. Insta-Lynch is just a term derived from the first host of the game to determine an instant halt in action. Here's the way I looked at it.

In the jail cell, when the group of people there finally select someone, they'd be motioning Boris or whoever over to tell them at that very moment "This is our choice here. Get rid of him". Therefore, the instant a majority is reached, VOTING ENDS. If you don't WANT an instant vote, DO NOT VOTE. Just speculate.

I'd LIKE to participate in TWG VI or VII, but I don't know if I want to play this game if people are going to such extremes to win. What, do we need to call you on a line you can't record in order for you to not be able to give someone 100% proof of your role this time? Man. Keep your role to yourself and play the friggin game.

~Squeek

PS - Tass, you need to stop at 6 wins. It's just stupid trying to play against you.

[Kilgamayan]

it was never stated that what he did was against the rules. Rather clevor actually.

It's not clever at all, it's incredibly low.

[GuidoHunter]

it was never stated that what he did was against the rules. Rather clevor actually.

It's not clever at all, it's incredibly low.

It's a really clever way of trying to do something really low.

And Squeek, regarding the insta-lynch thing, voting is still a tactic employed to see reactions. Just look at what Snapps did on day one. Of course, if that's not your goal and you don't want the insta-lynch, I can very much understand holding off, but voting records are a primary source of logic.

And I really hope the people who've been disheartened by the way the game's been played at times won't really shut themselves out. I have little doubt that any problems in the past are being resolved and won't be encountered in the future. Also, I HOPE the game will get mixed up with new roles and other ideas, without old ones, and the like, because it's getting a little repetitive from my view.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kilgamayan]

By the way, I recieved wolf and guardian PMs, and lightdarkness died Night 4.

>_>

[GuidoHunter]

HAHA! Roop didn't guard him even when he asked to be guarded so that he could win...

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[roopert]

hahaha sorry LD, I swear I was going to gaurdian you and I even waited like five minutes before sending the PM, but I had already promised it to Tass :X What a bummer. For the whole cheating thing, I was never a part of it or knew it existed, but now that I do I find it totally lame. Why even play the game if you are just going to cheat to get an unfair advantage? If you really want a cool looking banner in your sig that much, go make one in paint yourself.

Also, I would like to participate in the next TWG, but I doubt I'll catch the singups in time due to me being on the west coast -.-

[lightdarkness]

By the way, I recieved wolf and guardian PMs, and lightdarkness died Night 4.

>_>

Doesn't count.

I have no idea what happened, but it seems people have figured (#$% out.

Game over, humans win, yeah.

I'm too lazy to write story.

*goes back to watching RAW*

The humans win there.

Therefore, I am not killed, and I win.

EDIT: Also, for future games, I think either the PM's that were sent should be posted (as in what they exactly said), or they should just say something like (HUMAN, WOLF, SEER, GUARDIAN, PSYCHIC), and nothing else.

[Snapps]

I say give LD the win. He deserves it most (and tass but he won) because of his hard work for finding out the 2 last wolves. Hah.

[blahblah18]

I just feel that... this has gone on for multiple games, and no one else seems to care...

zildgidan showing his pm
2 peopel showing pm's this game

tass opening whorli's account to check her pm....

[Snapps]

So who showed their PM's?

[lightdarkness]

I just feel that... this has gone on for multiple games, and no one else seems to care...

zildgidan showing his pm
2 peopel showing pm's this game

tass opening whorli's account to check her pm....

I wasn't aware any of this was happening.

And besides, it's so easy to fake a PM, you shouldn't belive what people tell you.

[blahblah18]

showing a screenshot isn't the easiest thing in the world to fake.. and its more the point that people are doing it.. gopening another account to check a PM.... come on man

[lightdarkness]

showing a screenshot isn't the easiest thing in the world to fake.. and its more the point that people are doing it.. gopening another account to check a PM.... come on man

I won't say how to fake it, but it's insanely easy.

Anyways, How can you prevent logging into someone else's account? Those are special circumstances, what happens if a brother and sister were playing, you could just walk in when they see their PM.

It's not like I am going into the database and seeing all of your PM's, not that would be low. But logging into another persons account, when you have the password? I guess that person needs to change their password.

[Tasselfoot]

i consider it precise espionage.

given access to a specific piece of information that can be easily accessed... i still don't see anything wrong with it.

[Kefit]

i consider it precise espionage.

given access to a specific piece of information that can be easily accessed... i still don't see anything wrong with it.

Again, bull****.

It's cheating, and you know it. Stop trying to excuse yourself with retarded terms like "precise espionage." It's cheating. Let me say that one more time:

YOU CHEATED. SIMPLE AS THAT.

I suggest that for all future wolf games that any one who is caught cheating in any way whatsoever be booted from the game immediately.

Oh, and I also suggest that the whole idea of instalynch be removed. They tend to cause more trouble than they are worth.

[lightdarkness]

I agree that all cheaters caught should be booted from the game.

Tass's actions were insanely close, but I don't consider it cheating.

[Tasselfoot]

please show me in the rules where it says that i can't access someone else's PMs if i have access to it. thats right, it doesn't.

so, YOU may consider it cheating, but no where in the RULES (which i AM a stickler for) does it say that i can't.

now, if the rules are changed to make it so after this occurance, then so be it.

its like making fun of retarded people. you may feel that it is wrong, but its not against the rules (law), so i am free to do it if i so choose. if there was a law making it illegal to mock retards, then i wouldn't.


same with abortion.... YOU may feel its wrong. but its legal, so i can rape and scrape my babies as often as i'd like (or, well... Whorli can at my expense).

so with that said... stop being an uptight conservative ass and accept that i took advantage of a presented circumstance. loopholes, neglections, and the like are my closest friends.

[Kefit]

I agree that all cheaters caught should be booted from the game.

Tass's actions were insanely close, but I don't consider it cheating.

How could you possibly consider logging into someone else's account, let alone trading information about PMs in a means tantamount to taking a screen shot, as not cheating? Just because it can't be prevented doesn't mean that it isn' cheating. And just because the rules do not explicitly state that it cannot be done does not mean that it is exceptable. Guys, this is a game. Play with the spirit of the game, or you completely destroy it. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Really, the entirey of TWG V should have been called a misgame the second that Kilga heard about the PM incident with Tass and Chardish, with those two receiving some sort of fitting punishment. I can't say that I blame Kilga for not doing such, as that probably would have generated more whining than revealing it now.

[alainbryden]

New Rule: No player is to perform an action which gives themselves or any other player an unfair advantage or unassigned knowledge of other players.

THis implies:
-No hacking pm's.
-No giving away information in your pm in any way.
-Anything can still be said because even if the person trusts the other 99%, it is still not knowlege (absolute truth and certainty.)
now there's a peice of critical thinking for you.

[Kilgamayan]

Faking PMs is incredibly easy. I could fake a video of my PM if I wanted to.

Anyway, I only included roles in PMs to make the game the slightest bit more Red-Alert-ish. I honestly did not expect anyone to use them to try and catch wolves before the game even began.

For someone who's supposedly as good as you are, Tass, why would you resort to such a thing? There's no Critical Thinking involved in asking a wolf what the human PM looks like.

[Moogy]

Yeah, but how would you fake the ini?

[alainbryden]

And just because the rules do not explicitly state that it cannot be done does not mean that it is exceptable. Guys, this is a game. Play with the spirit of the game, or you completely destroy it. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Really, the entirey of TWG V should have been called a misgame the second that Kilga heard about the PM incident with Tass and Chardish, with those two receiving some sort of fitting punishment. I can't say that I blame Kilga for not doing such, as that probably would have generated more whining than revealing it now.

QFT

In the future, in addition to kicking someone out of the game for violating spoken or unspoken rules that make the game unjust or bias, they should no be allowed to register for the next game. This, hopefully, will prevent people from throwing hints when they were dead.

When we kicked chardish out of the game, I talked with him on aim to say I felt bad that he got kicked out, and was going to tell him what's been going on, but I hesitated, because I was afraid that, even though it was against the rules, that somehow, even information slipped to the dead, would make it's way to Tassel, so to cover my hesitation I pretended I was seer, and then the game got complicated as earlier described.

[roopert]

Tass, is all you care about in this game winning? It seems you will go to any length to win. Yes, you are a very smart person and know how to play the game well, yet if you are willing to actually look at someone else's PM, whether it be through a screen shot or being logged onto their accout you ruin the entire point of the game. Why even play the game in the first place? What is the point if you already know peoples' roles and know who to trust? Sure, you will most likely win the game, but who cares? The fact is, you don't actually win anything. (such as money or a prize) All you get is a new banner for you sig. The whole reason I, as well as almost everyone else, play this game is because it causes you to THINK. You can never 100% know who to trust. You have to use logic and gut instincts to figure it out, and that is the whole point. I don't play this game to win a new banner, (although I enjoy getting them because they represent how I've been successful in numerous games 100% legit by chance, luck, or both.) I play this game because it is fun, and it works your brain in a unique way. Sure, winning does make it more fun, but I would rather lose a really close and tough game than win an easy game by cheating.

Sorry if this sounds like a personal attack on you Tass, it's not just you. It's to everyone who has cheated or used an unfair advantage that ruins the game for everyone else. Especially the other team.

[Squeek]

please show me in the rules where it says that i can't access someone else's PMs if i have access to it. thats right, it doesn't.

so, YOU may consider it cheating, but no where in the RULES (which i AM a stickler for) does it say that i can't.

WHAT.

I had no idea it was that bad.

That's not just a boot from the game. That's grounds for de-modding.

Be glad I'm not a sysadmin or you'd be gone by now.

So, basically, you're saying it would be OK to hack Kilga's computer and steal his browser history in order to see who he sent PMs to? Or even steal the password to his AIM account and allow the people to PM you for the night?

You should be ejected from the game forever for this. I'm really angry to see that you stooped to this level to win a forum-based game.

And we all thought you were just really good at the game. Everyblody lost so much respect for you for that.

~Squeek

PS - I also vote that this game should be declared null.

Amendment: What's to prove whether or not Tass or anyone else has done this before? We obviously can't take their word on it.

[blahblah18]

Roopert said it perfectly...
I agree strongly and completely with every single thing he said there, and it is exactly how I feel about all this...
LD if you don't feel its cheating, then the game becomes "who can cut aroudn the rules best" instead of who can play best.. and no one's still mentioned the whole actually showing PM's...

and Tass wtf does this have to do with being an uptight conservative ass.. thats your excuse for everything :) In fact you know my opinion on all the "issues" and that shiet and know in fact I"m not an uptight conservative ass...so actually try and think before you say something, that'd be great. Esp since this has nothing to do with abortion or any of the other ridiculous stuff you mentione. Why try to cheat the system when you cna just paly the game

[roopert]

I see some of you are saying that the game should be declared null, well I don't agree with that. Yes, if I was a wolf I could see why you would want that. Infact, I really want to be a wolf one of these games and if I would have been a wolf this game I would have been pissed. However, don't punish the people who played this game honestly and legit like me and all the other humans who didn't cheat at all. Maybe just don't give a new banner out to the people who cheated, not everyone.

[Kilgamayan]

The thing is chardish makes the banners and he went around asking about PMs as well (he actually asked Guido, which is why I knew because Guido came to me not knowing what to do) so whatever he makes goes.

[roopert]

Well, I could care less if they get a new banner or not, but they seem to want one desperately bad so I propose it as a punishment. However, if from now on there is no cheating or using an unfair advantage by ANYONE then go ahead and give them their banners. Let them have it. Who cares? As long as they don't do it again I'm fine with it. The past can't be undone. All I care about is that this game be played the right way, with honest people who just want to think and have a good time.

Blahblah, glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way and just wants to play a good game.

[alainbryden]

second'd

[87x]

BOOO!!!... everyone should just shut up now.. Yall are attacking someone for doing something that you don't like but you all can't prove that it's cheating.. because like he said, It's not in the rules. He found a loophole and thats all there is too it. I actually commend him for doing it. finding and exploiting loopholes are the only way to show that they are there and can be fixed. Of course you could tell the operator about it, but in past games it had never been done so there would be no threat level to change the rules.. Well, now there is. So change the rules.. This game stands the crooked way that it is, or atleast it should. And if I had played this game on the humans side, and not got voted off on day 2, then if the operator didn't give me the new banner for winning a game, I would make it myself. If anybody on the humans team does this and it gets deleted, I support you in doing this, and I give you permission on having it up.

Also someone said something about hacking accounts or doing something to look at pms, well if it's not in the rules it should be. If it isn't then shame on them for it not being there.

Also, whorli knew tass had her password, she could of just changed it under the suspicion of him being a wolf and taken the chance to trust him, which she obviously did. So if you want to blame anyone then you could blame the source, but really don't think anyone deserves blame other than those who have completely gone balistic over this.

[Kilgamayan]

This kind of thing is what's known as an "unwritten rule". It's not in the rules because Loog didn't feel people would be that dishonorable.

edit woo

[flypie743]

please show me in the rules where it says that i can't access someone else's PMs if i have access to it. thats right, it doesn't.

so, YOU may consider it cheating, but no where in the RULES (which i AM a stickler for) does it say that i can't.

WHAT.

I had no idea it was that bad.

That's not just a boot from the game. That's grounds for de-modding.

Be glad I'm not a sysadmin or you'd be gone by now.

So, basically, you're saying it would be OK to hack Kilga's computer and steal his browser history in order to see who he sent PMs to? Or even steal the password to his AIM account and allow the people to PM you for the night?

You should be ejected from the game forever for this. I'm really angry to see that you stooped to this level to win a forum-based game.

And we all thought you were just really good at the game. Everyblody lost so much respect for you for that.

~Squeek


QFT

[lightdarkness]

please show me in the rules where it says that i can't access someone else's PMs if i have access to it. thats right, it doesn't.

so, YOU may consider it cheating, but no where in the RULES (which i AM a stickler for) does it say that i can't.

WHAT.

I had no idea it was that bad.

That's not just a boot from the game. That's grounds for de-modding.

Be glad I'm not a sysadmin or you'd be gone by now.

So, basically, you're saying it would be OK to hack Kilga's computer and steal his browser history in order to see who he sent PMs to? Or even steal the password to his AIM account and allow the people to PM you for the night?

You should be ejected from the game forever for this. I'm really angry to see that you stooped to this level to win a forum-based game.

And we all thought you were just really good at the game. Everyblody lost so much respect for you for that.

~Squeek


QFT

You are making it sound so much worse than it really is.

Yea, it wasn't exactly right that Tass did that, but it would be the same thing as standing behind her and seeing it.

Lets just say, this won't happen again.

[blahblah18]

how do you know that it won't

[lightdarkness]

how do you know that it won't

Well, from now on, whoever hosts can only put in the PM's (HUMAN, WOLF, SEER, GUARDIAN) ect.

Also, if 2 people that know each other in real life have access to the others PM, I suggest you either delete your PM after you get it, or change your password.

[flypie743]

I thought Tass could figure things out on his own rather than resorting to something as low as that.

I just lost major respect for him for doing that.

[lightdarkness]

I thought Tass could figure things out on his own rather than resorting to something as low as that.

I just lost major respect for him for doing that.

It's a forum game.

Don't take it that seriously.

[flypie743]

It's a forum game now, but what next?

[blahblah18]

thats exactly the point LD... its a forum game... why cheat on it, we're all just trying to have some fun and what not, but it makes it really hard

[Kilgamayan]

Yeah, it's a forum game.

Who cheats in a forum game?

[lightdarkness]

thats exactly the point LD... its a forum game... why cheat on it, we're all just trying to have some fun and what not, but it makes it really hard

This has been a learning game.

Like kilga said, it was an unwritten rule because it had never been exploited before.

Those who are caught cheating in the future, will be banned from several games.

[blahblah18]

This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever thought of, and I don't entirely mean it, but its so sad that I woudl evne have to think of it... have one extra person in the TWG game... his role is "cheat catcher" to see if anyone contacts him thats dead, or tries to ask for a PM or a SS or anything like that... he hunts the cheaters while the humans and wovles hunt each other

[Squeek]

I actually like that idea.

However, it'd have to be random, and that random factor could go to Tass. If it weren't random, the host would select a super-dependable person and we'd all know who it was. They'd never get contacted.

LD - You say I take it too far, I say you don't take it far enough. Sure, it's a forum game. Sure, it's a stupid incident. The fact of the matter is that Tasselfoot opened someone else's PRIVATE message. AKA, Invasion of privacy. AKA, lawsuit. Nobody will take it that far, but it's possible.

You see why I care so much now?

~Squeek

[lightdarkness]

I guess I do :-\

Just don't do it again people.

[Tasselfoot]

listen.... i don't know where any of this hacking nonsense came from. here is the ENTIRE story.

in twg1-4, none of this happened.

in twg5... i have Whorli's password. i logged onto her account and read her PM. that was it. no hacking, no stealing passwords, etc.

what other people did:
Chardish - started the PM thing. asked me what the last letter in every word in the 2nd line of the PM was (the 2nd line to all humans was the same). he also asked Kefit and LD. Kefit declined and told Kilga, LD accepted and told Chardish. I asked Guido. obviously, he declined. and he told Kilga. he also was asking everyone in the game if they were a wolf or not after he died. he was planning on telling me if anyone admitted. obviously, alain pulled the seer bit and guido said no.

Evilbutterfly and Afro - both being n00bs to the game, they SSed their PMs and sent them to each other. shortly after, they realized from others that that was obviously wrong, and felt bad about it. they now know better.


i believe that is everything that occured in TWG5 that is either completely or somewhat against the rules.

[flypie743]

I am especially surprised that you and chardish would go as low to do that because you guys are smart and you are vets to the game.

[blahblah18]

i'm relaly not upset with speciifc incidents, but rather the fact that all this happened... like even your whole you talking to cyupher thing game 3... I dunno, it just irks me is all, and I also don't see how it isn't goign to happen in TWGn

[flypie743]

Yes, I was rather ticked about the talking to cypher, also, especially because I was a wolf that game and I wanted Cen and Sleepless to win even though I dropped out because I was seered.

[Tasselfoot]

flypie, i did nothing illegal in TWG3. i never talked about the game, even if through my conversing with others, they did.

[blahblah18]

come on ask Cypher, he'll be the first to say

[Kilgamayan]

I also don't see how it isn't goign to happen in TWGn

Those who are caught cheating in the future, will be banned from several games.

EDIT: Cool, the second quote didn't line up on the same table as the first before I made this edit.

[Tasselfoot]

check the TWG3 postgame. cypher said that he was extremely confused with what i was saying.

[blahblah18]

well thats what i'm saying.. i don't see how it will be caught

[Kilgamayan]

It got caught this game, didn't it?

[blahblah18]

but now peopel know WHO TO GO TO AND WHO NOT TO

Edit: cypher told me in aim that it basically gave it to him.

[evilbutterfly]

After reading a few pages of the thread:

Uhoh. Looks like I better confess a bit. I exchanged PM screenshots with another person (not gonna say who, because I don't know if they want to be incriminated). Honestly, I didn't know it was against the rules. My knowledge of the rules came only from what I had seen in other games, and one of the signups where it was posted what each role did. I had no idea it was cheating, and neither did the person I exchanged with. Actually, when the idea of showing screenshots came up, I asked "you think that'll be unfair?" and we both decided it wouldn't be a big deal anyways, because apparently he didn't know it was illegal anyways. But honestly, I would have trusted him even if I hadn't had the screenshot, because I've talked to him a lot before and can read him really well. Besides, my alliance with him didn't help me in the actual game at all, really.

I'm sorry about this, you guys. If you don't think I should have it, don't even make me a banner. I would really like to have it to show that I won, but I can see why you may think I don't deserve it. And if I don't get it, I'll just have to win the next game, but fairly this time.


Also, Tass, quit being a douche. What you did was wrong, and you need to stop acting like you're not a poor sport. I feel terrible for cheating unknowingly, yet you sit there and claim that your game-winning actions were in no way a violation of the rules. You have your 4 pips and 5 games won because of you, I suggest you take some time off and learn to not cheat. Yeah, maybe it wasn't in the rules, but geez. I bet nowhere in the rules of football does it say you can pull out a pistol and shoot the quarterback, but would doing that make it any less wrong? The rules for this game also don't say you can't upload a virus onto other players' computers so they can't vote and are eventually phantom voted out, but that would be wrong, too. I don't care if you never admit to us that it was wrong, but at least admit it to yourself and quit cheating.


EDIT: Looks like Tass spilt the beans already. Oh well.


Also, people were saying "who cheats in a forum game?" but my question is, why would you cheat at all? It really takes away the special value of winning.

[flypie743]

I bet nowhere in the rules of football does it say you can pull out a pistol and shoot the quarterback, but would doing that make it any less wrong? The rules for this game also don't say you can't upload a virus onto other players' computers so they can't vote and are eventually phantom voted out, but that would be wrong, too. I don't care if you never admit to us that it was wrong, but at least admit it to yourself and quit cheating.

Good analogies.

[Squeek]

Tass, it couldn't just be that you accessed Whorli's PMs. That would have gained you nothing. Instead, it became obvious to you VERY quickly who was who on Day 4. Something must have happened and, from your post, it was obviously something to do with the PMs.

~Squeek

All dead people can (and do) talk to me. Since I don't play, it's a useful way to at least try to gain some insight as to what happened. I keep up with the thread all the time and know what's going on.

[Afrobean]

Evilbutterfly and Afro - both being n00bs to the game, they SSed their PMs and sent them to each other. shortly after, they realized from others that that was obviously wrong, and felt bad about it. they now know better.
Yes, I didn't know it was wrong, but how could I? It's not in any written rules, is it?

That's why I propose that someone writes up all these little things that we shouldn't be allowed to do. Also, we could make it so that that would be something that would have to be read before signing up for the next games.

Also, Tass, how'd you find out?

And about all this other sharing passwords jazz:
It's really not that big of a thing. My understanding is that Whorli trusted Tass enough to share their password. However, I do feel that this is one of the things that should be added to an official list of rules for things to not do in the future.

PS can you guys cut down on the late night posting? I have to go to bed at 10:00 and I can't stay up later. Also, the next time I get to come on is the next day after school. I came back to the forums with 5 pages of after game to go through.

[Kilgamayan]

Evilbutterfly and Afro - both being n00bs to the game, they SSed their PMs and sent them to each other. shortly after, they realized from others that that was obviously wrong, and felt bad about it. they now know better.
Yes, I didn't know it was wrong, but how could I? It's not in any written rules, is it?

Actually, it is.

Sadly Loog has since taken down his TWG Rules page, but if you want to go by the original rules, in the RL game the rules do say it's illegal to flip your role card before you die.

[Tasselfoot]

not our fault Afro....

and squeek... the reason everything came out all of a sudden on day 4 is because alain was killed on day 3. so, after he was found out, i went and re-read the entire thread... plus, there were 10 players. i was human, whorli was human, LD was human, EB and Afro were human, and roopert was the guardian. that left 4 people. guido, sleepless, cypher, snapps. and, after re-reading the entire thread, it was obvious that the 2 wolves were guido and sleepless.

so, yea... i knew whorli was human from her PM. the rest was some trust and some logic.


PS - afro, if she is trusting enough to sleep with me, live with me for 3 months, and now transfer schools and move 3000 miles to be closer to me... then yea, she trusts me with her password. same as she knows mine.

EDIT: from day 2 i had sleepless in my sights as a wolf... guido didn't come to me until after alain was pegged.

[Afrobean]

Evilbutterfly and Afro - both being n00bs to the game, they SSed their PMs and sent them to each other. shortly after, they realized from others that that was obviously wrong, and felt bad about it. they now know better.
Yes, I didn't know it was wrong, but how could I? It's not in any written rules, is it?

Actually, it is.

Sadly Loog has since taken down his TWG Rules page, but if you want to go by the original rules, in the RL game the rules do say it's illegal to flip your role card before you die.
I had no idea this was a real life thing. Is it like a board game or something?

PS I still think someone should type up a list of rules for the FFR forums. That way, what happened with me wouldn't happen again.

[Kilgamayan]

It's a very real thing.

http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html

[evilbutterfly]

Well, along with the TWG sticky there should be a TWG Rules sticky. When I first thought of signing up, I had to dig through a few past TWG to figure out what each role did, and nowhere did it have any rules about cheating and the like.

[alainbryden]

Way to sneak in a brag that you had sex with your girlfriend there tass ;)

[blahblah18]

that is the site for mafia... aka Werewolf
http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/

tons of variations too

[Tasselfoot]

not really a brag alain... its a way of life.

[evilbutterfly]

It's a very real thing.

http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html

It says in the real life version that when you die you flip over your card when you die. Perhaps if we got rid of the seer role and did that it would balance out?

[sleeplessdragn]

tass, i had no idea that any of this had occured. you must admit that there are certain unspoken rules that are generally accepted to be true. if there were not, then why didnt you or chardish simply IP ban suspected wolves and say that they had screwed up elsewhere in the forum, or threatened you over AIM and make up an AIM conversation? or edit everyone else's posts to make them say stuff as you wish?

EDIT: sp

[Tasselfoot]

um... because thats cheating... and, mods don't have the ability to ban. it would also be abusing my powers as a mod. which i haven't done in any fashion... i don't get where you feel that my being a mod factored on any of this at all.

[sleeplessdragn]

now wat is it that makes wat i said cheating to you now? you had whorli's pw, which is something more then anyone else in this game. as a mod you have more power then anyone else in this game (aside from other mods). as a mod you dont mod abuse, but you can because its in your power (kind of). you did not need to look at whorli's account, but you abused the knowledge anyways.

[whorlichan]

I will not defend Tass--I wasn't happy that he looked at my PM. In fact, I almost thought I hadn't gotten one at all because I couldn't find it (it was in my Savebox). I was upset about it, but I realized it really wasn't in the rules, and even though it wasn't in the spirit of the game, he couldn't do it to anyone else since he doesn't know anyone's password. He's not as good at hacking as he thinks. So it wasn't that big of a deal to me. (He offered to let me look at his, which I could have done at anytime since I know his passwords as well--I declined). I have since changed my password (for this site only--I know he would never dare to go into my email or anything important because he values his dangly bits where they are).

Besides all that--I think the wolves played this one really well until Alain screwed up with the fake seer bit. Guido had me going the entire time, and sleepless was just being sleepless, so no suspicions at all except what Tass kept nudging on.

Sidenote: Sex with me is apparently a way of life :) I think I deserve a gold star or something.

[alainbryden]

Is there any other way of life?

use protection kids

[evilbutterfly]

Besides all that--I think the wolves played this one really well until Alain screwed up with the fake seer bit.

The big screw up was in admitting to the fake seer bit.

[sleeplessdragn]

yea, honestly i really felt like the dead wolves basically gave up after they were killed. i think i would have lost this game with more satisfaction if not for that.

[stretchypanda]

K, so somewhere back a few pages, it was mentioned that Chardish went through asking if people were or were not wolves, with the intention of telling Tassel. Please tell me, Tass, that you don't think this is okay, since you wouldn't tell me, after I'd died, if you were a wolf. I understand the suspicion that, had I known, I would have run to my boyfriend to rat you out, but I'm only slightly insulted by this, since I know Guido is a big boy and can play a forum game on his own.

And on that, everyone has already said that this is just a forum game, and not worth cheating on, but you did it anyway. I would have expected you and Chardish to take the most fun in the CRITICAL THINKING part of the game and try to actually figure out who is and isn't a wolf. I think that's where the respect bit comes into play. Come on, guys, you're older than over half the forum, and you're mods, and these people look up to you. Even during a silly forum game. It's not any fun if the people playing are too busy wondering who's cheating (just to get a stupid pip on a stupid signature banner) to play the game.

Have fun on game 6 -- hope it's more interesting.

[Tasselfoot]

i don't control chardish, but i wouldn't have declined any information that he could have told me. in the end, he told me nothing. the rules are that the dead can say nothing... no where does it say the living have to decline offers of the dead.

plus, its each individuals decision on whether or not to reveal their role to the dead. i told Guido everything before twg4 was over.

y'know, so fine... this game had alot of flaws to it. the only important part of any of it is that alain getting nabbed as the fake seer was the sole catalyst of the humans winning. we most likely lose if not for that.

and, i would appreciate it if y'all are going to criticize my morals, to keep it at the things i did do... and to also criticize the others who either participated in similar actions, or more obvious ones. i seem to be the one being singled out.

[Kilgamayan]

You're probably being singled out because you tried to justify your actions where Eee Bee and Afrobean apologized.

If chardish were around and acting the same way I'd have no different of an attitude toward him.

[evilbutterfly]

Hey, I admitted my mistakes, and I think that everybody (especially you, since you're like, a role model for us young'ns) should do the same and promise to never cheat again.

[roopert]

Arrrrg, well I missed the signups for this game since I was still at school (seriously, is it too much to ask for the signup thread not to be unlocked until everyone has a fair shot at it? No i'm not talking about peoples' personal schedules, just TIMEZONES at the very least). good luck everyone. hopefully there won't be any cheaters.

[lightdarkness]

Arrrrg, well I missed the signups for this game since I was still at school (seriously, is it too much to ask for the signup thread not to be unlocked until everyone has a fair shot at it? No i'm not talking about peoples' personal schedules, just TIMEZONES at the very least). good luck everyone. hopefully there won't be any cheaters.

Sorry :-\ I guess I didn't really think of west coast :'(

[roopert]

I don't mind sitting out one game and letting others have a shot, I just want it to change in the future so I can have an equal shot at it.

[Tasselfoot]

EB... thought i had made my feelings clear. alot of you have issues with some of the things that have been done in the game. you won't have another issue from me.

[roopert]

So, did this game not count in terms of banners or have they just not been updated yet?

[lightdarkness]

So, did this game not count in terms of banners or have they just not been updated yet?

Chardish will do them when he is done with exams.

[alainbryden]

NEIGH006: I think I would have done legendarily well if I hadn't been so unlucky
evilbutterfly87: yeah
evilbutterfly87: and if you hadnt admitted
evilbutterfly87: and if your fellow wolves hadnt gone for tass
NEIGH006: and I only admitted to falure because I honestly thought the evidence was overwhelming
evilbutterfly87: no spoken evidence is overwhleming unless from the convicted
NEIGH006: true enough
evilbutterfly87: i seriously doubted them until you spoke up
evilbutterfly87: Afrobean still doubted them after that
NEIGH006: I just didn't to head maths right. It took 2 people put together to claim that I was a wolf, LD and Tass working together, but all I saw was that exactly what I feared would happen, happened, so I gave up.
NEIGH006: it's sad though, because first I put up this huge post countering it and everything, then posted it and saw that tass had supported LD's claims, and then gave up and edited.
NEIGH006: I didn't really think it through
NEIGH006: so you're right
evilbutterfly87: always deny
evilbutterfly87: ALWAYS
evilbutterfly87: as you're being dragged away to be shot, keep denying
NEIGH006: hehe

[chardish]

What I apologize for: Attempting to gather information from the dead and relay it to Tass. The dead are supposed to stay out of the game, and I did not. I accept as punishment being banned from TWG VI. :P

What I somewhat apologize for: Discussion of last letters in PMs. Yeah, I know this is low. Yeah, I know it's against the spirit of the game. Yeah, I knew it would only work once. But it's legal, and even though it's wrong, it plain and simple wasn't cheating. The (old) rules say you don't share your PMs with others. We didn't share PMs - we asked each other questions about them. And though it is low and crummy and unfair, I pride myself that I had the idea. I promise never to do it again.

I've got a neat new idea for TWG VII. I'm keeping my lips shut about it, but needless to say it will add a whole new layer of intrigue to the game.

Right. Back to being invisible again....

[Tasselfoot]

PS - chardish's new idea...... i don't like it. :( he won't listen to me though.

[GuidoHunter]

Someone else has got some great ideas, too. I say we just forget TWG VI and start on VII. Eh? Eh? While we're at it, we'll make signups during a time when Omega isn't around.

EDIT AFTER blah: Eh, I just couldn't remember if you were being hush-hush about it.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[blahblah18]

why am I secret? That someone else is me, my ideas are amazing, and signups can be whenever, because I have ideas that can work from a range of 16-30 people and the game will not go any slower then any other game we've had... and as Guido said, they're some damned great ideas

[evilbutterfly]

When are the new banners coming? Somebody said after Chardish has exams, and I figured they'd be about over by now. Maybe he just forgot? I wanna see what the new ones look like (with 4 wins omgosh) and have one of my own...

[flypie743]

They will be done when Chardish is done exams. He wouldn't forget. He is probably still working.

[lightdarkness]

They will be done when Chardish is done exams. He wouldn't forget. He is probably still working.

He will be back on Monday.

Exams aren't just one day :-P

[flypie743]

I know exams aren't just one day. That is what I am saying...he is probably still working--studying and probably still has some to take.

[CypherToorima]

I call friggin dibs on hosting the next game >.<

[lightdarkness]

I call friggin dibs on hosting the next game >.<

It's nominations :-\

[Snapps]

I nominate me because I have played many RPG's before that actually have to do with typing up paragraphs after paragraphs. This may not be an RPG, but I can sure make up one hell of a long intro and days.

[CypherToorima]

oh

[Tasselfoot]

no offense snapps... but screw you. after your performance in twg5 and twg6, you don't even deserve to play, let alone host. take a seat next to moogy.

[flypie743]

I want to host, also :>

[CypherToorima]

Forget you guys >.<

I've been wanting to host since, like, game three.

[Tasselfoot]

you still have my vote cypher.

[Snapps]

In TWG 5 I was new TWG6 I was like lets try to be good at this this then im like meh lets just bs for a sec and see what happends. Then I go regular for like a min with a real vote and I die.

It was mainly for fun that time. But Tassel you already gave me crap over AIM how I shouldn't play and stuff so whatever now :/.

[blahblah18]

it has nothing to do with writing good stories.. it has to do with having good ideas to change the game and keep it fresh and fun

[flypie743]

Forget you guys >.<

I've been wanting to host since, like, game three.

So have I. I just missed the sign up for the first nominations :<

[QreepyBORIS]

HOLY BUMPS BATMAN!

I think there should be asterisks next to the wins of all the people who cheated. At least for game 5.

Put it in the picture with a star or question mark next to the game name, just so it doesn't go forgotten.

[alainbryden]

oh ma this sucks. two dollars forten minutes internet and the thread is locked. what a waste. i'll try to get on later.

[chardish]

I think we're done analyzing TWG 5, don't you, Qreepy?

[QreepyBORIS]

I think we're done analyzing TWG 5, don't you, Qreepy?

Did it look like I had even started? Do you think I didn't realize I was bumping it? Did you figure that there was a reason I only put that much input in my post?

Please.



See, I was gone for a couple of weeks, and I wanted to post in this thread. K.