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Old 03-20-2007, 03:59 PM   #1
coberst
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Default Please, Doc, am I normal?

Please, Doc, am I normal?

In New York City a woman who gives away all her possessions and goes to the streets to help the street people might well be placed in protective custody. In Delhi she might well be considered as a saint.

Normal in one culture is abnormal in another. One culture is often the enemy of another. American culture and Islamic culture are apparently good reason for killing one another. The Shiite culture is apparently good reason for killing Sunnis. A few centuries ago Protestants and Catholics found good reason to kill one another.

“Social life is a ceremonial that has to be flawless so that man can disguise his fictions and justify them; the last thing he can admit to himself is that his life-ways are arbitrary…If you reveal the fictional nature of culture you deprive life of its heroic meaning because the only way one can function as a hero is within the symbolic fiction.”

The paradox of human existence is that on one level we consider our self to be of great importance and on another level we know we will die. The despair inculcated by the knowledge of death is a heavy burden, even more so to those who are unique, those who are the most individuated, the most abnormal. Those who are the least normal are the most in danger of despair. “The problem of despair can be met only in one way; by being a cosmic hero, by making a secure contribution to world-life even though one may die.”

“The humanization process itself is the neurosis: the limitation of experience, the fragmentation of perception, the dispossession of genuine internal control.” To be normal is to be neurotic.

Quote from “The Birth and Death of Meaning” by Ernest Becker

Questions for discussion

Are we guided to a large extent by our first five years of life?
Can we change this childhood effect to a significant degree?
Can we be considered as free men and women if we are so determined?
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coberst View Post
Questions for discussion

Are we guided to a large extent by our first five years of life?
Can we change this childhood effect to a significant degree?
Can we be considered as free men and women if we are so determined?
Wait; you post a huge thing about existentialism and culture and then ask questions about critical period theory and social determinism?

Well I guess they sort of fit together.

Yes, we are guided to an absurd extent by the first five years of our lives.

It depends on what you mean by significant degree, but we can make a large number of changes, with varying degrees of difficulty and success.

Yes, we can be considered as free even if we are so determined. The choice "Choose A or don't choose A" is still a choice, even if it is incredibly limiting.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

The first quote mentioned has got to be one of the best descriptions I have ever read about the superficiality of American society...im holding it hostage.

I would say that the first years of life mold an individual into that in which is most desired by the moldee(sp), most often parents or guardians. Thats not to say they have no choice, but most are often naive to the moral implications of their actions since a strong schema has yet to be formed. It isnt until one grows older that they observe themselves and further progress consciously.
This rolls into your second question rather nicely (who would have guessed...) in the respect that It is most definitely possible to change oneself further down the road. I think an incredible example of this is the father in American Beauty. If you havent seen this movie, I highly suggest you do.
I think your third question sort of speaks for itself in this regard. Since one can ultimately change how they view reality, they can change how they interact with it as well. Since they are in fact determined, they are choosing to be determined. The fickle thing about determining free will is it becomes increasingly more difficult the more indepth ones tries to predict an outcome. For example, you go to a restaurant and your friend goes...:: I know what youre gunna have, the chicken!:: Now...you have two choices at this point...the chicken, or not the chicken... Probability probably falls on NOT the chicken, but since your friend already threw it out there...whos to say youre not choosing the chicken just to spite them? Im sure this could conveniently be used as an excuse that it was predetermined...but I prefer to view it as psychologically complex =)

My 2c,
-Ty


PS...I cant believe how many places you posted this on the internet...

Last edited by Tyren; 03-22-2007 at 01:06 AM.. Reason: omgwtfbbq
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Tyren

I have always wondered about those people 'in the shadows' who never seem to post. I see that you have been a member for three years but have posted less than ten times per year. I like to think that my post was so compelling that you could not resist, but I would like to hear from you as to what are your motives for remaining in the shadows and also any opinion about those others who remain as non participants but constant readers.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

We utilize these identities, these "defining affiliations" to inculcate a sense of acceptance and belonging in society. I don't really feel as though the first five years of one's life truly determine these identities, though they do factor in largely.

I think the destruction of free will is a more sinister and clandestine process. I like to equate a lot of what happens in America today to the "bread and circuses" practices of the Roman Empire. The biggest enemy Americans face today is not Islam, or "terrorists" it's the onset of apathy, apathy that is created through the use of mindless entertainment and things like tax breaks. Most Americans don't even care about real issues anymore, they're just worried about what's on MTV or where Anna Nicole Smith's kid is going. Sure, it could all be a process enacted by the powers that be to sort of coddle a society into submission through ignorance. But, I think it doesn't even go that deep, I think we've done it to ourselves. We've become too comfortable, we've become too obsessed with instant gratification. Our culture is obsessed with results and rarely takes the time to admire the process. We've all lost our way to Carnegie Hall.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Specforces

I could not have expressed it any better.

In my opinion we have just a few generations in which to radically change this attitude or our species will just be a very short lived species. We have evolved into a very dangerous species that have the technical ability to distroy our self but have not developed the moral ability to contain that dangerous technical skill.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Quote:
Can we be considered as free men and women if we are so determined?
This largely depends on your definition of freedom. In my opinion, ultimate freedom is chaos. If you have the freedom to do anything you want then you will have an increase in crime, violence, rape, etc. So if this is the freedom you're defining, then no we will never be free men and women because some restrictions are to our benefit. Finding what restrictions are good and not so good is the problem.

Quote:
I think the destruction of free will is a more sinister and clandestine process. I like to equate a lot of what happens in America today to the "bread and circuses" practices of the Roman Empire. The biggest enemy Americans face today is not Islam, or "terrorists" it's the onset of apathy, apathy that is created through the use of mindless entertainment and things like tax breaks.
If my history is right, the "circus" aspect (The Arena) became so bad that the people needed more and more gore in order to be satisfied with entertainment. And the apathy also lead to the Roman empire's demise after they conquered most of the known world.

My point is that I can see this same thing happening to the US.
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iggymatrixcounter View Post
If my history is right, the "circus" aspect (The Arena) became so bad that the people needed more and more gore in order to be satisfied with entertainment. And the apathy also lead to the Roman empire's demise after they conquered most of the known world.

My point is that I can see this same thing happening to the US.
This is my point to, this IS what is happening to the US. We're becoming complacent and finding ourselves more and more dependent on this "entertainment" that's provided to us. It WILL lead us toward destruction if we let it.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

I believe Roman history is a bit more complex than what you are saying. That stuff certainly weakened the empire, but it was other factors that lead to its demise.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Quote:
In my opinion we have just a few generations in which to radically change this attitude or our species will just be a very short lived species.
Not every country is like the USA. Not every country's citizens are completely ignorant and don't care. I doubt that our country will lead to the demise of the human race.
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
I believe Roman history is a bit more complex than what you are saying. That stuff certainly weakened the empire, but it was other factors that lead to its demise.
Ok, let me interpret what I said for the literals around these parts:

I was speaking generally, pointing out one factor of Roman demise that is a very similar trend seen today.
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Old 03-24-2007, 11:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Please, Doc, am I normal?

Spec, would you find yourself to be hedonistic? I only ask because while this trend that you associate with Romes demise, may have had a considerable part to do with it...I can only imagine the Romans went out with one helluva bang. My opinion will likely change as I grow older, but as I view it...this over stimulation of entertainment grants the largest spectrum of satisfaction. Instant gratification, as previously discussed has tainted me as an individual, as to be expected living in suburbia in this country...but i find it difficult to show a dominant distaste towards such things. One does not live forever, and I dont suspect these actions to turn us sour before the end of my lifetime. What would be your greatest arguement to living as pleasurably as possible for the oh-so short years of human life?
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