The Point of education

[blahblah18]

Well as I"m sitting here racking my brains to try and finish my last take-home final, I was just wondering about the state education has become in the world. Does it really serve any asthetic purpose anymore? Do people actually learn for the sake of learning? How much has colelge merely become vocational training rather then the bastion of learning that it was meant to be, and do we blame the makeup of society or our own ambitions for this?

[jewpinthethird]

We (my friends and I) discussed this in Philosophy Club. Basically we came to this conclusion:

In a capitalist society, one only attends school inorder to get good grades, so they can get into a good college, so they can get a good job, so that they can earn the most money. Think about it, have you ever met anyone who was enthusiastic about going to school to learn? If you have, then consider yourself lucky, they are very rare, and you should probably vacuum bag them and stick them in a chest for the next 20 years so that you can sell them on eBay for a fortune.

[Tasselfoot]

Tass thinks blah should go back to typing class.

But, i do agree with you completely. both of you. i had 2 finals today, 1 tomorrow, and 1 next week. i have yet to open a book. i haven't been to class in a month, nor done a homework assignment. i will pass every class with at least a C+. i will graduate. i will get an average job (not a great one, because my grades do suck). i will make plenty of money. i will open my own business. i will make more money.

Tass is a very happy boy. i understand the choices that i make now affect my life later, and i am content with those decisions.

[Squeek]

I want someone to explain something to me. Actually, a few things. Hopefully you can give a better answer than Kefit.

1) Why is math a required course for Computer Science majors?

This one bothers me the most. Why am I taking a class where I am forced to memorize insanely useless functions and such without the aide of a calculator just to pass? If I'm a COMPUTER programmer, you don't think I could possibly ever look up the functions on the intarwebs should I ever need it? (which I won't, by the way).

2) What's the point of paying $2,000+ a semester if you know more than the professor?

My CS teacher is not at all intelligent. She lectures on (reading from a powerpoint slide every time, which has its own set of errors) and tells the class incorrect information, then gets mad at me when I correct her. Look, you can't be a college professor and teach students incorrect information. That's just wrong. She can't even operate a computer right. It bothers me so.

Also, just as a rambling side-note, she decided it was better to use this really old camera projection thing to write things with her crappy handwriting instead of using, oh, I don't know, WORD? Or better yet, the actual programming SOFTWARE?

3) Why are CS classes still doing things by hand?

Ok, seriously now, we are a COMPUTER Science class. That means we use COMPUTERS to code things. We do not write them out by hand. It's also completely unimportant to learn all these useless concepts she tries to teach us. Instead of teaching the class code, she taught them all the other aspects of Java that don't matter. Most of the time, even that information was wrong.

I can't remember the rest. I had two finals yesterday, followed by work until closing. I have my last one today and I've not prepared for it at all.

~Squeek

[Tasselfoot]

Squeek... perhaps you should speak with the head of the department or the dean regarding your professor and the matierial in the class.

obviously math is a foundation in any computer based job. just because calc itself isn't directly applicable doesn't mean that there aren't purposes for it or uses for it. there are. also, its college. they want you to have a well rounded education

lastly, perhaps you should transfer to a better institution of higher learning. i've had a few professors that don't know how to teach, but i've yet to have one that doesn't know the material down pat. then again, my classes are more than $5000 each.

[GuidoHunter]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

have you ever met anyone who was enthusiastic about going to school to learn?

I absolutely love learning, though the grades part kind of gets in the way of all that. That and required classes. But yeah, I am always excited to start a new semester and learn all sorts of new and awesome things. Math and science blow me away with their awesomeness.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[jazzmosis]

Originally Posted by Yesterday, I

Psych Exam tomorrow that I'm probably going to fail. One chapter of 8 is worth nearly 50% of the mark, so I've only studied that chapter. I figure if I can get 70% on that chapter, then I only need about 20% on the rest of the exam to pass.

It's multiple choice, with 5 answers to each question. For some reason the prof is giving us 5 "gimme" marks on the exam, which leaves me with a need to only get 8 marks total out of the remaining 28 questions. And given probability of just guessing, (20% chance to get it right), I should end up with about 55% on the exam all from knowing one chapter.

Wish me luck on my crackpot "studying is unneccessary" theory.

I put more effort into figuring out this formula than I did studying for everything. For me, if I like a subject (1 of the 5 I'm taking) than it doesn't feel like learning because I enjoy it (Film). Otherwise I don't care and I don't do the work because if I'm not ever going to persue it, there's no point in me knowing it.

[blahblah18]

I like our CS department, I don't like math now that I"m doing abstract theory :/

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter

I absolutely love learning, though the grades part kind of gets in the way of all that. That and required classes. But yeah, I am always excited to start a new semester and learn all sorts of new and awesome things. Math and science blow me away with their awesomeness.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Learning is great. I love to learn new things...well, I like to learn new things that I actually care about. I am facinated about Symbolisms in Art, and recent Art History, as well as Astronomy and Philosophy. I would love to take an automotive class, or even Woodshop. However, not one of those courses is offered at my school.

I have a question for those who plan the "California Standards":

You want kids to stop dropping out of school? You want kids to actually look forward to going to school? Yes, I believe a well-rounded education is needed, but the requirements for the High School Exit Exams are 8th grade material...so why the f*ck should I spend 4 years of my life learning stuff I dont ever plan on using outside of school.

When am I going to need to know the structure of an Animal cell if I plan on becoming a mechanic? Why should I be forced to learn Iambic Pentameter if I am going to become a carpenter? Why should I be forced to take 2 years of PE if I plan on becoming a Writer? What good is the quadratic formula going to do me if my goal is to become a concert pianist?

Course requirements are stupid. "No Child Left Behind" is a stupid program that causes more trouble then it solves (basically schools get less money if they score poorly, where is the logic in that?). Little kids dont want to be constantly tested.

Schools need more funding so that more courses can be offered.

[The_Q]

My views on school:

It's like the market, natural selction on steroids. Through school you will meet many people: those who are intelligent and work hard, those who are intelligent and slack off, those who are average and overachievers, those who are average and underacheivers, the truely stupid who overacheive (Girl in my chem class doesn't know how to spell chemistry but somehow gets B's), and the stupid who don't do anything.

Through showing how much work and effort you produce, as well as your intellect and resourcefulness, you get your grades. Of course, you don't get grades over things like lunch (which is an important thing to grade. Watching how someone spends money instead of time is just as important) or recess. Those who get good grades move to better schools where the process renews itself. The great minds and overacheivers manage to float to the top and the unfortunately stupid and lazy manage to sift down to the bottom. Over and over.

As a capitalist I think that the whole system would work better if all schools were not government funded at all. As a capitalist, I would say that it is my duty to acheive the highest rung on the ladder and exploit that position to my best abilities. As a realist, I know that won't happen at all. Instead, I choose to live where I land, show my colors, and end up making just more than Tass. How? I hope to become part of the natural selection process. Wouldn't you love me as a teacher?

Q

[Tasselfoot]

so your goal is to make more than me? <3

[blahblah18]

so is mine actually... its what i thought when i read your post

[Tasselfoot]

aight.... ITS ON!!!

[evilbutterfly]

I have a very objective view on learning. As little of my college education as possible will be wasted on stuff I won't need. Hopefully I'll get enough AP credit to test out of the basic requirements. Then everything I take will be geared towards game-making.

Obviously I'll take programming, but I may also take some music theory classes and such so I can compose some good game melodies. I might even take like, military strategy classes or something, just for the hell of it. I wanna be good at what I do, not know a bunch of useless facts and read what some famous guy wrote in some famous book.

[Jpec07]

What is the state of education? When I first read this, I thought it was a mimicry of this year's LIONS Club Essay.

Education today does not mean as much to our (teenagers) generation as it did in the past. If you poll most people, they will probably say that they don't enjoy school, and that they wish they didn't have to go. Why is this? Part of it tells me that highschool drama has a lot to do with the decline in the desire to learn. Teenagers' lives are so flooded with social crap that they aren't able to maintain a consistent desire to learn. Sure, every few weeks a teen will suddenly remember how much fun learning actually is, because in spite of it, learning is fun. Why are people so unwilling to learn? What drives this distaste for school? For one part, the social structure of schools causes so much pressure, with the desire to fit in, the pressures of having the right clothes, the right music, and saying the right words, the whole spectrum of teenage emotions running high, and the inevitable concept of the clickes (sp?). In truth, the pressure of school is what drives students' interests away, not education itself. If the superficial and meaningless crap could be removed from schools, then learning could abound.

[psychic25]

Well, in response to that essay:

A big part of high school is the social stuff- true. However, that social stuff is actually very important (from what I've noticed, at least). When you get a job later in life, there is a need for social skills of some sort. Every job requires some sort of interaction- with your boss, with your coworkers, etc. School is good training for this, although I do agree that sometimes the social stuff does get in the way of learning- stress over something like clothes can cause you to forget to do that book report or huge project.

I do enjoy learning- I think it's pretty cool to find out why something happens a certain way, or to learn how to say new things in a different language. I believe that most people enjoy this as well. Granted, some people may not like certain things- some people don't care about history (I don't) so they don't like learning ideas from that subject. However, everybody has interests, and likes at least one subject that they teach in public schools. Everybody likes learning, but not everybody likes what they "have" to learn.

Also, I believe that grades are crap. Grades exist to set standards for learning, right? Well, a lot of people that get good grades don't have to learn anything- a lot in school is memorization. I'm not talking about the vocabulary stuff or language words (these are needed and I have no problem with learning these)- I'm saying that all you have to do to get a high grade in the class is memorize the things for one chapter, remember them until the final, and then forget them forever. You don't need to have any idea of what they mean, you just need to "know" them. If you don't take the effort to memorize all of these seemingly useless facts, you are perceived as stupid, both by the teacher and your peers. Because of this, you now have a bad attitude toward that class and the "learning" that goes on in that class, which can easily extend to learning in general. Learning in general can include real learning- the things that you will take and keep and treasure forever. These kids would like to learn, but they won't because of a bad experience with rote memorization (read: "learning").

Wow, I really used "learning" too much in that.

[Ybom]

I'm very interested in the learning process of society today. I think a big part of the problem is the communication, and right after that is stubbornness. I pose a question to every single one of you who have posted here. How do you propose to fix this learning mess?

[The_Q]

I say to you this, Ybom. Is it a mess? I find it absolutely wonderful that so many people are dropping out of the competition early. Why is this bad?

I gain from their loss. It's just that simple. You gain from it, assuming you are not part of the mess. Your so called "mess" is my blessing.

Education for the masses? Bah! Private schools all 'round!

Q

[Ybom]

(The) Q, I find it riveting and quite amazing that you think completely outside of the box on this subject. I appreciate it and absolutely love it in fact.

The problem I have is that I had a bad experience at the 'american' version of the education system, and I expect based on my problems that many others in many different places have had some level of difficulty as well (I hate overgeneralization, since I definitely used it there). Technically speaking, percentages don't matter to me. If one person out of six billion has had a bad experience growing up in any education system around the world, that one is too many, no matter who benefits from his or her malady.

I agree that imperfection yields a quite vast and dynamic society, but I think nature peeks through into everything (which is probably why it's fun to stomp on ants...imperfectioning a perfect system). Why I'm tossing nature into the mix here is for a very good reason.

You see, applying the dynamic and chaotic structure of nature invariably into everything that you can find in earth experiences, even perfect education (where everyone is enlightened at the end let's just say) means that it won't be grey or bland or redundant. If it is, then we're not talking about a perfect education system (yes I believe there is more than one way to perfection), instead we're talking about an unreal system of cold hard mismanufactured forcefed memorization (erm I meant education).

The benefits of providing everyone in the world a perfect education, while sort of off topic, most likely would include a better society due to reduced miscommunication, better technology, better proportioned time and energy management, and so on. Many people, including myself and you probably on some level, 'spin their wheels' on everyday tasks that could have been simple (or simpler) otherwise. Essentially, the benefits on a humanistic level would be reduced stress and more fulfillment.

A metaphor, how I see the system: I liken this to a process of getting milk from cows prior to pasturization. How long did milk last back then? Compare this to the current (bah doesn't even have to be average) level of attention spans if you will (or even better liken it to the small percentage of well fulfilled people). It just didn't last/get any better, man! Not much chance for us, or the milk. Don't you think a better (I hate this next word) standard would make a higher percentage of people happier? Pasturization did, why can't 'enlightenization' do the same thing?

I know, call me stupid for relating two unrelated things, but somehow I have to try to get this concept across. The process and the results should have a similar look anyways. I just really want people to understand what it is all of us higher folks feel even if I have to sacrifice some difference in potential between us. I guess a decent interpretation is 'stop beeing so selfish' with our cloud nine! I think this is a big issue that really needs to be repaired, overhauled, or replaced quickly so I can talk to ten intelligent people in maybe eleven, instead of one in hundreds.

As for ways to fix the system, I don't think it'll be easy at all. However, I think a new thread needs to be made for that. I think there's a big difference between knowing about a problem, and trying to fix the problem.

Now, Q, can you please critique this and find problems with what I have said? I have tried to edit it to the best I could for a simple thread post. Some logic may have been flawed in the process from the vague idea grasp to the submit button, so please do me the honor if you would. Thank you in advance! (I already fixed a few minor problems on my own; I may edit it more later)

[The_Q]

You're sorry for relating milk to education? What's wrong with you, man? Using models is absolutely wonderful! I love it and I'm sure almost everyone who read that (fabulous) post would agree that it really did help the read go along much more smoothly.

Now, I don't believe a scrap of what you claimed at all. I'd say that your ideology is fantastic and absolutely unbelievable. Of course, it makes perfect sense to believe that the average joe would believe such nonsense about a "utopia". Unfortunately, utopia doesn't exit, won't exist, and shouldn't. Especially not your utopia.

What is it about an equal society that makes it perfect? Its the fact that everyone is unequal that makes our society run. For instance, your method to make everyone produce more is total bull. Why, if everyone gives as much output as me, would I want to do any work if they could just do it for me? I'd slack off. If everyone else had that mentality, they'd do the same. Because many people do, that means a decreased productivity, and not just a little bit.

Now, on the other hand, we have the incentive method. Sure, you'd get some incentive to compete if everyone else had an equal level of enlightenment as you, but not as much as if there are few with quite a bit of enlightenment. Those that monopolize the small amounts of knowledge are the ones who succeed, and the want of the people to acheive that level will cause them to strive for it (and in the process, produce more).

Ok, what's wrong with that. I might have missed a few points but it's 1 AM.

Q