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| View Poll Results: Are there absolute morals? | |||
| No, there are no absolute morals, everything is subjective. |
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10 | 62.50% |
| Some things are absolute, others are subjective. |
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4 | 25.00% |
| Yes, there are absolute morals. |
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2 | 12.50% |
| Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#1 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
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I was observing our society, and reading through many of the posts, and I noticed a trend towards subjective rules and away from absolute morals. My question is if there is anyone believes in absolute morals anymore, or if everyone believes in subjectivity. Questions that could fall under this topic could be "Do the means justify the ends?" and "Is it right to steal bread for your starving family?" Note that if you believed in absolute morals, they would not neccessarily have to be the standard views accepted. I just want to hear people's views on absolute morals and if there are any.
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#2 |
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Super Scooter Happy
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I have come to learn everything is subjective.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#3 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 190
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I'd have to agree with Kilga on this one, everything is subjective and influenced by our upbringing and social environment. To one culture or many, they might consider the killing of another human being as something you should never do; or an absolute moral. However, another culture might support human sacrifices, such as the Aztecs; or Cannibals who eat their own. To these, I'm sure they don't share the same morals.
So, this is an example of one such instance where we might think we have absolute morals; however another culture somewhere might have a completely differing belief system. Now, if you're talking about within our own community, that's another subject entirely. Still, I would tend to say there will always be radical thinkers out there with differing morals. Before we try to debate further, could you define your interpretation of absolute morals, so we don't go down a nasty road first of misunderstandings?
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#4 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
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Absolute morals are actions or behavior that would be right under any circumstances, regardless of culture, upbringing, etc. For example, some might believe it is absolutely wrong to rape under any circumstances, no matter what the culture or the upbringing of the person tells them. In the case of cultures that say it is ok to rape, than the person with absolute morals would believe that the culture as a whole is wrong, and should be changed.
Someone who believes in human rights believes in absolute morals, because they believe everyone in the world should have a certain set of rights regardless of what their culture or governing body says or does. I believe certain things are wrong, no matter what the situation. Abortion is wrong. Rape is wrong. I don't believe that any circumstances or upbringing would make either of those two things right. I don't want this to degrade into a discussion on a specific topic, so try and keep it to the absolute morals portion of the discussion, but feel free to voice what you think the absolute morals are if there are any. |
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#5 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 190
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Quote:
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#6 |
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Environmentally Friendly
Join Date: May 2003
Location: In transit
Age: 34
Posts: 6,929
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If there are no absolute morals, there should be no laws.
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#7 |
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Super Scooter Happy
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Just because a large majority of a country believes certain things should not be allowed doesn't mean everyone on the planet feels the same way.
__________________
I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#8 |
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FFR Player
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Not only do they don't feel the same way they also believe the complete opposite, like suicide its against the law to kill yourself in the United States but in some cultures its an honorable way to die, like the Japanese... Maybe the only one I can think of is Murder, I doubt in any culture theres any justification to pointless murder...
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#9 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
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The thing about absolute morals is that it doesn't matter how a person, or how many people believe in that thing, it is still going to be right, because it is absolute. Thus, some cultures would be entirely wrong in their actions, because they do not follow the ultimate moral guidlines. where do these guidelines come from? God in my opinion, but many do not agree with me. Also, just because something is wrong does not mean it won't be done. Example: I think killing is wrong. However, I would kill someone to prevent them from blowing a building full of people. Is what I did wrong? yes, but I did it to prevent a much greater wrong, which is the death of thousands of people. the right thing to do would have been to stop this person without killing them, but if that is not in my power, than killing is the only way to prevent that greater wrong.
I also think that it is more popular to believe these days that morals are totally subjective instead of believing that we are all accountable to a specific moral agent, because it is much easier to not feel any guilt or remorse for actions if we are not ultimately accountable. |
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#10 | |
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Super Scooter Happy
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Quote:
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#11 |
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FFR Player
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Yeah... but he a had a reason, wrong reason... I said meaningless murder.
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#12 |
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Super Scooter Happy
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In his mind, and in the minds of many other Germans, what he was doing was right.
And I personally believe that if the Axis Powers had won World War II, they wouldn't be held in an "evil" connotation.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#13 |
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FFR Player
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So?
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#14 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Exeter, NH
Posts: 21
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The only way I see around this question is discussing universally wrong/right motivations, rather than universally wrong/right actions per se: I consider any and all actions motivated by spite morally wrong. As far as particular actions, it is impossible to define universal rights and wrongs, as concepts of right and wrong are particular to different cultures.
And if we try to find any genetic basis for morality -- any hard-wired right or wrong (infanticide, perhaps?) -- such genes mutate, leaving us where we started. Again, even if there was any genetic support for hard-wired morality, it is clear that culture, and society could warp that morality; psychologists know that conceptions of morality are mostly acquired, at a young age.
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#15 | |
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Super Scooter Happy
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Quote:
What did you think I was trying to prove?
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#16 |
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FFR Player
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I dunno I quit this thread : (
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#17 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
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I like the way DonCasablanca described right and wrong motivations versus right and wrong actions, but I feel the motivations for your actions and the actions themselves are two seperate things. Motivations can be good or evil, and actions right or wrong. You could do a wrong deed for good reasons, or a good deed for evil reasons. Of course, it is impossible to convince others that there are specific moral absolutes, especially if they don't agree with your views of right and wrong.
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#18 |
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Environmentally Friendly
Join Date: May 2003
Location: In transit
Age: 34
Posts: 6,929
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There are certain things that just sit wrong in every human's conscience because of the pain and suffering they cause, like torture, rape, murder, etc. People who believe these things are okay have either a) been brainwashed/miseducated/trained into thinking they're okay or b) have psychological problems. These things are matters of absolute morality.
Now here's where my idea comes in. I think that there are some things that are innately considered wrong to everyone but because of society we are trained into believing that they are okay. One example would be cheating. I think everyone innately feels that cheating is wrong but some people, because of academic repression and difficulty at succeeding on their own, or perhaps simply a set of values that encourages laziness over hard work as long as you succeed, develop an eventual "tolerance" for cheating and then it gets to the point where it's not considered wrong at all. But does this mean cheating isn't inherently wrong? No, it's just that people have trained themselves to not be naturally inclined to think it's wrong anymore. I think all morality is objective, and "subjective morality" comes from societal meddling. |
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#19 |
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Super Scooter Happy
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Who are you to say that someone else has psychological problems or is brainwashed just because they hold morals that different from yours? Am I brainwashed/psychologically unsound because I'm pro-choice? Because you were equally vehement on that issue too.
Murder I already explained with Hitler, and by extention torture as well. Rapists probably derive pleasure from what they do, and so they likely view it as right.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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#20 |
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Environmentally Friendly
Join Date: May 2003
Location: In transit
Age: 34
Posts: 6,929
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I think that abortion is naturally abhorrent. I think people accept it because of the live-for-themselves mentality society teaches us, as well as the fact that abortion was quickly labeled an issue of "women's rights" which made it difficult to contest in the 70s. I think that if abortion were not naturally abhorrent, half the country would not be pro-life. Nor do I think that society and culture are encouraging pro-life thoughts. Thus, the natural reaction of rational-minded individuals who are uninfluenced by society and know the facts is to abhor abortion.
"Brainwashing" is a harsh term I used to describe acceptance of more violent crimes. "Imposition of societal ideas" is better. |
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