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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
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Let me say this first, I'm probably one of the most socially open-minded people around. That said, I'm also one of the most hardcore rationalist/atheist/freethinkers around as well.
Logic and science rule my universe, and in that universe there is no need for a God. However, as long as there are people fearing death, a new religion will be created. I have a quote I'll share with you guys, as I think it is actually a good representation of social history: "The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next." I'm not going to go into this too much, but just in case someone doesn't understand... Think of the ancient Aztecs, who believed human sacrifice was necessary to keep the world from being destroyed by an Apocalypse. Obviously, today we don't believe this, nor do we make human sacrifices in fear of the world ending. I can imagine people talking about Christianity, Mormanism (especially but I won't get into that yet), and other current religions in the future as we talk about the ancient Aztecs today. However, most of the world doesn't see this, they go to church every Sunday, and tend to take their religious text (every religion has one :P) too literally. It's my opinion that religion preys on the weak-minded. Ready for another fun quote? "Organized religion is like organized crime; it preys on peoples' weaknesses, generates huge profits for its operators, and is almost impossible to eradicate." That's my view anyway, and to me holidays like Christmas are now only mere economically driven events used by the media and businesses to generate profit. Now I'll give it to you guys, there are plenty of Christians out there that seriously celebrate Christmas, but let's be honest here and acknowledge the state our society is in. Now, on to the Bible... Oh yes another quote: "Santa is to God, as the Bible is to Mother Goose." Now here's one I really love. Not only does it capture exactly what I want to say, it's only mildly offensive. You've all heard of Santa right? He's the myth your parents told you about when you were all children. Now, imagine this same concept on a larger scale. Instead of Santa, imagine your god, and instead of your parents, imagine our ancestors pre-dating early Roman society. A bunch of people get together and say, "Hey, let's start a religion!" Sounds like a good idea right? Teach people some morals and gain some power in the process! They say, "Sure, that's a great idea, now for the religious text!" Ok, maybe it didn't happen exactly like that, but you hopefully see the point I'm getting at which is religion is a scheme created a long time ago to keep the weak-minded in check, cattle if it were. Sadly, today we live in a time where the cattle-mentality dominates, and people no longer think for themselves. Instead of people doing things for themselves, they rely on a magical man in the sky to fulfil their desires and needs. Ready for more quotes? I knew you were... "Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." and... "I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock." That second quote brings up another point I'll talk about, since it seems I'm in the rambling-on mood today. ![]() Religion "has" divided people. Look at the war in the middle east which has been going on for nearly 2 millenia now. These people have been fighting over their "holy land" (and I say those words with extreme sarcasm) and from an Atheist viewpoint, it's just absurd and ridiculous. I look forward to seeing the replies, since I can't think of anything else to cover. I'll wait till they start showing up as I'm sure they will. ![]() |
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#2 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 298
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First, I'd like to pre-empt the highly probable "We've discussed religion five bazillion times already, be quiet" posts with this: this is a set of facets of religion, etc. that haven't been discussed yet, and such a post is unneeded.
Now, I see in your post, Aedak, a common mindset held by many atheists, which I believe is wrong. I don't mean wrong in the sense "God is real!" I mean that your beliefs on humanity as a whole and believers in particular is a bit warped. In one of your first statements you highlighted a key point of religion: it exists where people need it. However, your reason for people to believe is wrong; people need a higher power not because they fear death, but instead because they are living life. For many people, especially after a series of traumatic changes, life is a mudslide and they feel like there are no anchors or safety. Over the millenia, religion has been that anchor for people living in harsh, problematic times. However, it is not the massive events that truly convert people, it's the personal experiences, the personal need for something greater to hold onto. Many people become more religious after they lose family members, especially parents because the turmoil inside is great enough that they need something, anything. Even if the anchor is something to hate, like believing the god Jupiter is the reason your house burnt down and killed your child. How much worse would life be, living and knowing that your child is dead because you were unlucky? Just trying to live with something so horribly unfair will make people cynical, depressed, or sometimes suicidal. That's why kind, caring, and loving gods are so popular; people go to worship and pray for self-comfort in nearly all cases, and they turn to the will of a higher power when they feel lost. But remember this: religion and belief is not the sole domain of the weak, it is a purpose, a parent, a friend, an enemy, an explanation- all things people seek in life. It doesn't need to be true. Moving on, I now see a good problem that afflicts many Atheists: cynicism and/or too little experience in understanding the desires of people and how they effect the larger world. The people of this current era are not, as you state, cattle or easy to coerce. Additionally, people are no more weak-minded or manipulative than they have been in any age before this; only the setting has changed. Focusing on events like Christmas, it is now two different events. There is religious Christmas, and traditional Christmas merriment. Religious Christmas is still celebrated widely by Catholics and Protestants alike and has lost no momentum in recent years (the post-Crusades era). They still receive what meaning they desire from worshipping and events like this, but the secular part of the world has its own Christmas celebration. The main problem with your view of the secular side of religious celebrations is why you think we hold them. Christmas is not held by the rich corporations, by the greedy businessmen, by the shop owners. Christmas is held by the parents, for the enjoyment and merry memories of their children, and for a period of (relative) relaxation and change in the daily routine for everyone else. If everyone decided presents weren't part of the tradition, no one would make money off of Christmas. It's about the fun, the enjoyment, and the old memories from childhood. Who doesn't remember atleast one magnificent Christmas you aboslutely loved as a child? So although many religious holidays do have a split personality, the religious and secular, they have lost no integrity and aren't events hosted by companies to make more money. Oh yeah, and I should correct you on one little comment: the Christian religion and every other I know of all tell you that the gods may give you opportunities, but it is up to you to do something, and achieve something in life. I haven't seen a single religion tell you to sit on your duff and let life come to you. I agree that religion has divided humanity, but so has every other little thing. Money, power, color, height, build, hair color, accent, nationality, inspiration, intelligence, morality, desire, motivation, everything that makes humanity different has been a problem for someone. Maybe if we all learn to live together we wouldn't have petty feuds going on for 200 years, we wouldn't have suicide bombers, we wouldn't have un-ending wars. The only difference with religion is that normal feuds die out quicker because the feuders have other forces that act on them, whether it be trade or religion or total annihilation. One last final comment, I swear. Religion was created by the believers, clergy came along later as a means of social unification, not the other way around. Religious books are often meant to teach morals, but they always come last, the believers first. |
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#3 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
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I don't believe my beliefs in humanity are so far off at all. People fear death, it is innate in all of us whether we like it or not. As for needing a higher power? That's absurd... I personally see it as a weakness, creating an imaginary friend as-it-were. Life is full of problematic scenarios and roadblocks, people should be confiding in their friends, not bottling it up and talking and praying to an imaginary one. There is no need for a god, people need to get over their pain and anguish with healthier methods.
I think it is funny you use the example with an evil/good god. Ignorance really is bliss... especially many centuries ago when people believed that gods did things like set people's houses on fire. Personally, I would feel much better knowing of my misfortune than blaming it on an evil god, or a good one at that. The fact is, the house burnt down because of perfectly logical reasons, blaming a god is pure ignorance. Now, I will admit I know it is just an example; but these ideas go hand in hand with other situations as well. Unlike others, I believe in logic, reason. People can reason anything, I've reasoned with myself to the point I can truly say I believe that there is no god, there is no doubt in my mind. I simply don't require the idea to function as a human being, and I am beyond that. I would have to disagree with you when you mention that people are no more weak-minded or manipulative than they were in the past. As we've talked about, people actually believed that multiple gods existed, and did harm to people, and took sides in wars! People are much more knowledgable in this day and age; but regardless of what mental state people are in, it is amazing to me that people still worship gods and waste their sunday mornings to the extent they are obsessed. My next pet-peeve... Creationism and Evolution We actually have people out there who believe this ridiculous idea as FACT. Yes, there are actually people out ther who take the idea of creation (the the Earth was created six days) seriously, and they actually claim to have proof supporting it, scientific evidence, it's astonishing. This stems back to the problem of Christians taking the Bible "literally" - which really is ignorance at it's best. I know there are probably some people out there who support the illogical "Ingelligent Design" - as creationists try to make their nonsense sound more scientific sounding... so here's an article you should look through: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...mber=1&catID=2 The article itself a couple years old, and slightly outdated. For example, it says speciation has not been observed. Since then, it has been... but regardless, it's a good read, as is this: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html It would be unfair to tell people (as creationists will tell you) that there is a serious dispute going on among scientists whether or not evolution took place.. it isn't. We see, all over the country, school districts wrestling with this problem of what to teach, evolution, creation, both, neither, and it seems to crop up when people who's religious views require them to interpret the bible as literally true are offended by the idea that evolution is being taught in the classroom. Alot of the time the creationists will sound very scientific, they'll search through journals and try to pull out something that they think demonstrates that evolution doesn't work. And... there's kind of an interesting rational behind that. Their theology is such that if there one thing wrong with the bible you have to throw it all out... so that's why Genesis has to be interpreted literally. They look at science the same way, if one little piece of the evolutionary puzzle doesn't fit, then the whole thing has to go. Of course that's not the way science is done. There are actually people that believe that the Grand Canyon was created by the "big flood" over a few days - the one that got Noah to fill his "party boat" with every species on the planet! This is phenomenal... Their god only lives within the margin of science. These people want to destroy science because they believe modern science has given rise to what they call "materialistic atheism" which they believe is really the source of all the sins, and evils, and wickedness in the universe. I'd rather have my tax dollars to go to teach real science. The problem comes with certain sectors of the religious community, who want a literal interpretation of the bible, and they want to use the Bible as their source of science. The difference between good science (evolution) and non-science (creationism): Good science changes as we learn more, it begins with oberservation, moves to hypothesis, testing, and debate. While non-science is rigid, it begins with works of fiction, and proceeds to asserting, insisting, twisting the facts, and sometimes even torturing those who disagree.. You could learn something from that! Whether intelligent design makes sense to you, or just sounds fk'ing crazy doens't matter! Creationism is just not science. Us atheists are starting to wake up, we've been silent too long and sleeping. As we're sleeping these people are walking into our homes and stealing our liberty, and we're not going to do it anymore. Edit: It has come to my attention that people do not know the definition of an Atheist: Quote:
Theism, broadly defined, is simply the belief in the existence of at least one god. Contrasted with this is atheism: broadly defined, it is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods. There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about this definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists - atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different. According to them, atheism is the denial of the existence of any gods; the absence of belief in any gods is, for some strange reason, often ignored - at best it might be mistakenly referred to as agnosticism, which is actually the position that knowledge of gods is not possible. The truth is that the broad definition of atheism is most accurate. Some atheists go on to deny the existence of some or all gods, but not all do, and by no means is this a necessary step to be considered an atheist. This is fully attested in comprehensive, unabridged dictionaries and it is how atheists in the West have been using the term for a couple hundred years. The superiority of the broad over the narrow definition can be found in the fact that it simply allows us to describe a wider range of positions. For those who insist on the narrow definition, there are three basic positions: * Theism: belief in God. * Agnosticism: don't know if any gods exist. * Atheism: absence of belief in the existence of any gods. The_Q: I hope that suffices. You obviously don't understand the definition of what an Atheist is, or you wouldn't be confusing me with an agnostic.. someone who doesn't know if a gods exists. Just because I present both sides of an argument does not mean I do not know where I stand. Again, in case it didn't set in the first few times I mentioned it. I am an Atheist. |
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#4 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 298
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You should take a look into the Romantic movement of the 1600s. There are quite a number of people who believe that reason and logic are NOT important, and that intuition, etc. are the things that matter. It wont sound reasonable or make any sense at all, but many people do believe that logic is useless. Opinions differ, that's why religion exists.
However, there is one point where we agree entirely. I think that people who take every part of ANY religious text literally, especially creation myths, are being foolish. Anyone else got a comment to chip in? |
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#5 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
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Post is updated, and I bolded key words so you can understand better Q.
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#6 |
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By definition, atheism is the belief that no god exists. Just look at the Latin roots. Sorry for just this; but I haven't had much time to make a meaningful post.
--Guido http://andy.mikee385.com |
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#7 |
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Environmentally Friendly
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It seems that you have a fundamental disaffinity towards Christians and a wrongheaded belief that most Christians are fundamentalists who deny evolution. You still have cited none of your reasoning why you believe there is no God, and your calling Christian thought "ignorant" is offensive to me, as is your calling those of faith "obsessed". You state that everyone naturally fears death, and I think this is out of your own disbelief that Christians can possibly be happy in death. Happier in death.
This entire topic seems to be little more than a pathetic way for you to attempt to impose your beliefs upon others and delineate your loathing of schools of thought foreign to your own, a practice you implicitly abhor. An overzealous, preaching, closed-minded atheist is no more enjoyable or refreshing to listen to than an overzealous, preaching, closed-minded Christian. |
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#8 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
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Now, as for my argument. First of all, I never claimed that all Christians were fundamentalists, nor did I claim that Christians were ignorant.. though I did probably use the term weak-minded on more than one occasion. If you're going to critique my argument at least have the facts straight yourself, the only thing I referred to at ignorant was ancestors of ours from centuries ago, those who believed that a god was responsible for their houses burning to the ground because of one. As far as imposing my beliefs on others, sure. I'd love to rid the world of religion, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. The best way to get arguments from people is to force them to show their passion for a topic... You guys obviously don't know what an argument is, otherwise you would be trying to find counters to mine instead of bashing me personally. I would love to see opposing views, but only Drac has shown any form of rebuttle. As for Christians being happy in death, I'm not sure if you're trying to say they are happy when they die or afterwards. Regardless of which it doesn't matter, the point was that death is something everyone has to think about; no matter what you say or believe, you cannot ignore the fact that death will approach, and at some point in your life you must have feared death (even for an instant). That was my point, innate fear of death and their need for a "higher power" because of fragile minds... Anyway, this isn't a research paper, and I listed a few links if you were interested in learning more regarding evolution and creationism. If you expect me to cite every single thing I post, you're just asking too much. It just means you have no way to respond and must continue to bash me. Good game, no rematch. 8)
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#9 |
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(The Fat's Sabobah)
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I am close-minded and Agnostic, so ignore the following:
I'm not going as far as to say that religion is for the weak and ignorant (though sometimes it may seem that way). But religion does do good things. It has helped millions in their time of need, and for some, religion is the only thing keeping them from becoming criminals. Think of it this way: Just because you are American doesnt mean that you ride horses, wear cowboy hats, carry a revolver everywhere you go, and drive a pickup truck. Though half the world thinks that that is what Americans are...cowboys. |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 190
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Sometimes for added credibility I make up a phrase and quote it from the bible. Example:
"AND THE LORD THY GOD SAID YE SHALL BURN THE SODOMITES, FOR THEY HOLDST NO PLACE ON THIS WORLD" -- James 13:16 Basically, religion is only handy when you're trying to piss someone off.
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![]() Signature subject to change. THE ZERRRRRG. |
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#13 |
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FFR Player
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It's been bothering me for a while. Here I go. Anyone with a Bible, Quran, or any other religious text, please back me on this.
The number one thing that caught my eye was the fact that you consider Christmas to be filled with contradictory beliefs. Let me point out that Christmas should not be in winter at all, that it is technically a springtime holiday. Saturnalius, however, did coincide with the decided celebration. Why? Most likely because it provided cover for the Christians to practice rituals in the insanity of the week long holiday. As the tradition held, more pagan winter holiday practices were added. The Christmas tree, orniments, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, caroling, and many other Christmas traditions have nothing to do with Christianity at all but instead promote other religions. Thank you, History Channel. As for the fear of death. Yes, I fear death. It's a mortal fear and I'm just afraid of it's unsureness. My paranoid nature just adds to the confusion. I do, however, take comfort in the fact that I'm going to rest in peace. God promised me this, just because I followed the ideals of himself and his son (the family thing is for another thread). Is there a God, though? I'm not sure, but I do believe there is one. How would it hurt not to? If there is a God, how could he allow suffering? I never said he was perfect (again, another thread). Look, you have been claiming your intellect to be superior than many, but I think I'll have to side with the other regs from this forum. Although I hate using diminuative words, and hate even more to hear them, I'll have to conclude that you're nothing but a moronic menace to the name of critical thinking. Claiming your opinions are 100% true is not only contradictory but just egotisitical. If you're such a man of science, why not spend time learning science instead of looking to such a hot topic to blaze on and insult people with. Sure, you've been oppressed, but that doesn't mean you are right. To continue on Anticrombie, any fool in error will find a passage to back him up. Since you have no scripture, you fall on internet links and diced quotes from private conversations. Bravo, Aedak, you have become the first person I can barely tolerate. Q |
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#14 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jun 2003
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![]() Leviticus 20:13 --- “If a man also lie with man-kind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. - This is basically condemning homosexuals in the bible as a sin. This one is interesting, right down on the next chapter: 21:18 --- If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) --- Basically says we should stone to death disobedient children... Exodus 21:7 --- says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery! Not even in Nevada! Exodus 35:2 --- basically says anyone working on the Sabbath should be put to death, you really gonna be feeling good about enforcing that one? :O Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself that if a man have long hair it is a shame onto him. --- Ok well they're right about that one.. =\ If you believe it's your god, and your god is infalable, you can't throw out some of the rules, just because you don't like them. ![]()
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Environmentally Friendly
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The book of James only has 5 chapters.
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And I'm guessing you've never read the Bible, because if you did you would know that nowhere in it does it say to take every word of the Bible literally. It was compiled almost 350 years after Christ's death! The reason Jesus establishes a Church is so that future generations do not misinterpret Jesus' teaching. New Church teachings are not the result of new revelations, but rather the result of re-examining Scripture and spiritual tradition under a more refined lens. I'm going to guess you're going to call this "hypocrisy." But nope, this is not limited to the realm of religion. To give a secular example, look at the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Constitution realizes that feuds will develop if people interpret the Constitution differently (and this is true, it led to the first political parties) so it establishes a Supreme Court to re-examine the Constitution under a more refined lens as time goes on, and to make judgments on what the Constitution says. And by the way: Creationism does not contradict evolution. Creationism simply says that all creation has a divine origin. Evolution simply says that simple life evolves over time into complex life. Creationism does not assert that God created humans immediately. It would appear that your interpretation of what creationism is simply comes from a far-too-literal interpretation of the Bible, a practice you disapprove of. The Catholic Church does not forbid its practitioners from believing in evolution, nor does it believe that evolution disproves the existance of God. After all, that life had to come from somewhere. Quote:
And since you describe yourself as a "hardcore atheist" who believes there is no God with "no doubt in your mind" and you have no intention of changing his beliefs, this leads me to believe that you have indeed posted here only to attempt to impose your beliefs on others. Either that or you just enjoy picking fights. |
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#16 | |
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Also, I wouldn't take a self-proclaimed atheist removing Scripture quotes from context as a better authority on Christianity than a Christian. |
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#17 | |
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FFR Player
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Chardish, you obvioulsy didn't comprehend any of my posts, or you wouldn't be making such silly comments. If you "had" read what I posted, I mentioned that I have read the bible, and regardless of what is in the bible, an ENORMOUS amount of Christians DO take it literally, word for word, I guarantee you.
Even if you do not take it literally (I've explained this already). Since you obviously did not read my post in it's entirety I will post the section again just for you: It would be unfair to tell people (as creationists will tell you) that there is a serious dispute going on among scientists whether or not evolution took place.. it isn't. We see, all over the country, school districts wrestling with this problem of what to teach, evolution, creation, both, neither, and it seems to crop up when people who's religious views require them to interpret the bible as literally true are offended by the idea that evolution is being taught in the classroom. Alot of the time the creationists will sound very scientific, they'll search through journals and try to pull out something that they think demonstrates that evolution doesn't work. And... there's kind of an interesting rational behind that. Their theology is such that if there one thing wrong with the bible you have to throw it all out... so that's why Genesis has to be interpreted literally. They look at science the same way, if one little piece of the evolutionary puzzle doesn't fit, then the whole thing has to go. Of course that's not the way science is done. As for Creationism not contradicting evolution? Sure, I guess it doesnt, I'll give you that. However, Evolution does contradict Creationism, no matter how much you want to argue that it doesn't. Creationism is non-science, trying to prove it is, is preposterous (again I've covered this). You really shouldn't take things out of context. I said: "I'm glad you find it offensive, I've found oppressive Christians offensive my entire life." - You understand you're the oppressor right? As for Q, when i said my opinions are all 100% correct, i was being sarcastic; even I (one of the more egotistical bastards out there) wouldn't go so far to say that. Hot topics are what keeps me from dying of boredom, you guys keep me entertained while I pump out sarcasm and amplify my ideas to sound offensive instead of mildly offensive. At least it worked and I'm entertained. ![]() Jumping straight from abortion to atheism sure is fun! However, I was still hoping for a better argument. ![]() Quote:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism...adictions.html Well that's it folks, I'm going to bed, enjoy the forums without my cynicism, radical ideals, egotistical and savvy personality until tomorrow. ![]()
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This is the part of the topic where you get owned.
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Your implicit notion that your beliefs make you intellectually superior has proven to appall even your fellow atheists. Quote:
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