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View Poll Results: Your beliefs?
I am a Theist 9 30.00%
I am an Atheist 14 46.67%
I am Agnostic 7 23.33%
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:42 PM   #1
Nonexistent_One
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Default Definition of 'God'--A Contradiction

The way I see it, when people try to prove/disprove the existense of 'God,' they go about it all wrong. Each side must know exactly what they are arguing for or against, so a common definition for 'God' must be set. To be a true 'God,' one must have the quality of being 'Omnimax'--that is, to be omniscient, onmipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent.

Omniscient--all-knowing

Omnipotent--all-powerful

Omnibenevolent--all-good

Omnipresent--everywhere (having infinite presence)

This definition in itself is irrational, as it contradicts itself.

To be all-good is to be incapable of doing evil, am I right? If 'God' committed an evil act, then he cannot be all-good, he would be 'mostly-good.' If 'God' is incapable of doing evil, than is he all-powerful? If 'God' cannot commit an evil act, because of his omnibenevolence, then he is limited to what he can/cannot do.

'God' is all-knowing. He knows the past, present, and future. He knows exactly what you will do and when you will do it. Let me ask you this--do we have 'free will'? If it was predetermined (known beforehand) that you will chose A instead of B by 'God,' then is free will possible? 'God' created everything and knew what the outcome would be--he made a world where you would choose A, but you did not know there was no other option. You could only choose A, because that is how 'God' 'created' it, therefore making it the only possible choice. If there is only one possible choice, then it is not 'Free' will. The only way for us to have free will is for 'God' to not know what we will choose, but if he doesn't know, he is not all-knowing. If God is all-knowing, then he knows exactly what he will do/choose, lacking free will himself and being powerless to change it--that, of course, would contradict his all-powerfulness.

Then we come across the argument of evil. 'God' created morality, did he not? For him to be omnibenevolent, he must creat the notion of 'good' to abide by himself to define him as all-good. If he creates 'good', then he must creat an opposite, defining notion, 'evil.' For something to be 'good,' there must be something to compare it to, as in not-good, A.K.A. evil. How can an all-good God create evil? Even if it was to define 'good,' there is still the fact that he created evil. Some theists argue that there is an 'unknown purpose' behind it. Even then, something evil coming from something all-good doesn't make sense any way you look at it. Besides, if there is an 'unknown purpose,' that only justifies evil, making it not 'evil' at all. It must be impossible for evil to exist, since it is always justified with an unknown purpose to keep our 'omnibenevolent God' all-good.

The problem behind the theist's argument is that it is based on assumptions. Theists first assume that God exists, then they try to reason their way to him, assuming that everything necessary for 'God' to exist is true. The only way out of this whole argument is to assume it isn't true, assume the definitions are not contradictory, or assume that words do not mean what the definition states.

That, my friends, if why I am an atheist. I have given my proof for the nonexistence of 'God,' even though the burden of proof is actually up to the theist to provide. The positive side of the argument must always hold the burden of proof, since there must be a solid definition to work with, and by giving this you are already claiming the positive statement. I had to give the definition myself because there is no other side present in the argument (as of yet). If my definition is wrong in any way, please, feel free to tell me why. If I have written anything wrong here, again, let's hear it. I will analyze your argument and either agree or disagree, explaining why I did so.

Please, no flaming in this discussion. I intend this topic to be a healthy debate, not a game of 'Diss the Other Person If Their Beliefs Are Different.' If you like this game, you do not deserve to participate in the discussion. If you have something to say, back it up with evidence, or at least logic.

~NEO

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Old 08-19-2004, 02:06 PM   #2
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You neglect to mention that in a world that God exists, so does Satan. Satan would have created evils like temptation and stealing, etc etc etc, not god. Although that would take away from his Omnibenevolence. Very good points you bring up, though.

The reality is that if god were to exist (I am Agnostic, btw), is that over the many years the religions have been taken from one extreme to the other. The fact that Henry the 8th created one of the more widely followed (yet generally disobeyed) religions is proof that humans create figures to believe in more than visa versa. Perhaps there is no god, but if every human knew that fact, chaos would more likely erupt because there would be no boundaries, no fear of damnation, and so on. It is more the concept that we are being watched by an all-powerful, caring being that gives humans the sense of stability and safety in their lives that they cannot fulfill around physical objects (it could be anything.).

The bottom line is that regardless of whether or not a god exists, it is the concept that many humans cling to, hoping to find a meaning to their own life (Life is what you make of it), to seek guidance, to overcome obstacles/tradegies, and so on.

What I do disagree with is the concept of church, because while it is good to amass similiar thinkers, it is essentially a governing board that contorts the original "rules" or (better word) guidelines to be a well-off religious member, and these rules or guidelines can be perverted or twisted in ways that can create a more farce sense of religion rather than what it was meant to be. In other words, religious activities become for of an opinion rather than a fact. (What you can and cannot do) These are decided by humans, not as a god would have intended. If there truly was a god, the guidelines would be set in stone with no room for sway or alternate interpretations. There could essentially be only one religion.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:10 PM   #3
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I need anither option for the poll. I am Jesus.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:20 PM   #4
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Jazz, does satan actually exist or was he a recently made up figure? Besides being a lame excuse, if god was omnibelevolent he wouldn't have slaughtered cities or told his people to commit genocide, nor would he have left satan intact.

I myself am agnostic leaning towards athiest, and one thing I can tell you is that life contains more than just worship. With absolutely no god in your life you can do equally as much and be equally if not more happy. Religion really has no use but to allow people to gather and act as a social mechanism, mostly because we have things called "Honor" and "Morals" to keep people righteous and something called "Prison" if they are not. Humans can do perfectly well on their own and no deity is required for life to be as it is now.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:29 PM   #5
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I am Agnostic also - I'm not supporting god in my life, I was just playing devil's advocate. After all, it's not much of a debate unless someone brings up counter points.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:44 PM   #6
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Do we really need another religious post? If you think about it, the choice of slaughtering cities for beliefs is not God's will(if you are referring to the Crusades) But people's interpretation of what they think God means. Now if you go back to the Bible in the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed those cities because of their perverse actions(homosexuality, sodomy, prostitution, etc.) Now Im not a homophobe but it does state clearly that no man or woman should have sexual relations with the same sex. O_o Now if you choose to believe that God isn't real be my guest. You go ahead and live your life the way you want to. It's no skin off my nose. I'm a Christian.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:48 PM   #7
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When it comes to religion, believe what you want to believe, not what others want you to.
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Old 08-19-2004, 02:50 PM   #8
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I believe in God. End of Story.
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Old 08-19-2004, 08:07 PM   #9
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I was refering to the biblical story, and that story proves god cannot be omnibenevolent. I think that story only vilifies the city so they can justify blowing it to peices. In truth it was probably 2 cities that refused to obey corrupted regligious leaders and so they destroyed the cities in retaliation.
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Definition of 'God'--A Contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistent_One
To be a true 'God,' one must have the quality of being 'Omnimax'--that is, to be omniscient, onmipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent.
Why?

The defenition of God is a perfect being. Perfections can in fact lie in things humans find to be imperfect.
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Old 08-19-2004, 10:23 PM   #11
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Hey, uh... Chromer. Do you eat shellfish? Nope, you can't. It makes you unclean. Do you wear a polyblend shirt? You could get publicly stoned for this. Do you sacarafice a cow to God? Supposed to do this every certain amount of time. You ever wanna sell your daughter into slavery? You're allowed to. Bible says so. Do you go to work on Sunday? This'll get you a one way ticked to hell. And hey, riddle me this. The bible states that I can buy slaves from neighboring countries, but my friend says this applies to Mexico but not Canada. Why can't I buy Canadians?

Just reexamining the holy book for you gents.

Mal
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:01 AM   #12
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Default Re: Definition of 'God'--A Contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
Perfections can in fact lie in things humans find to be imperfect.
Before asserting this statement, please provide proof that it is a proven fact instead of an opinion.

And Jazzmosis--I understand that 'God' is something most of humanity clings to because they need stability or meaning, but that is another topic of discussion. I am only arguing the existense of such a being, not whether it is better for humans to be governed by religions or not.

~NEO
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Definition of 'God'--A Contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistent_One
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
Perfections can in fact lie in things humans find to be imperfect.
Before asserting this statement, please provide proof that it is a proven fact instead of an opinion.
Last I checked, you were the one that started off the thread stating something as fact that is very much an opinion.

So you go first.
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalReynolds
Hey, uh... Chromer. Do you eat shellfish? Nope, you can't. It makes you unclean. Do you wear a polyblend shirt? You could get publicly stoned for this. Do you sacarafice a cow to God? Supposed to do this every certain amount of time. You ever wanna sell your daughter into slavery? You're allowed to. Bible says so. Do you go to work on Sunday? This'll get you a one way ticked to hell. And hey, riddle me this. The bible states that I can buy slaves from neighboring countries, but my friend says this applies to Mexico but not Canada. Why can't I buy Canadians?

Just reexamining the holy book for you gents.

Mal
LOL That was hilarious. Yes those were some crazy times but as Christians we understand that sacrificing a cow in this day and age is just weird. So we give tithes. Giving 10% of your money to God every Sunday is better than slicing open a cow and burning its entrails O_o
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Definition of 'God'--A Contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistent_One
The way I see it, when people try to prove/disprove the existense of 'God,' they go about it all wrong. Each side must know exactly what they are arguing for or against, so a common definition for 'God' must be set. To be a true 'God,' one must have the quality of being 'Omnimax'--that is, to be omniscient, onmipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent.

Omniscient--all-knowing

Omnipotent--all-powerful

Omnibenevolent--all-good

Omnipresent--everywhere (having infinite presence)

This definition in itself is irrational, as it contradicts itself.

To be all-good is to be incapable of doing evil, am I right? If 'God' committed an evil act, then he cannot be all-good, he would be 'mostly-good.' If 'God' is incapable of doing evil, than is he all-powerful? If 'God' cannot commit an evil act, because of his omnibenevolence, then he is limited to what he can/cannot do.



Not necessarily. Being all good isn't not being able to bad, but choosing to not do anything bad. God could do something bad, but then reality would cease to exist.
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Old 08-20-2004, 04:49 PM   #16
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Well, I myself no longer attend church (I know, my loss), but I thought the idea of a sacrafice was to give something up to God. Giving money to the church who spends it on themselves/charity, is quite a bit different than giving up a cow. I understand how the word from the Book changed, and I'm glad you're not one of those people that blindly says "THE BIBLE IS ALL KNOWING WITHOUT FALLACIES YOU WILL BURN IN HELL MALREYNOLDS!" Anywhome, good chat.

Good day, sirs. And any lady that may read this. Good day to you, especially .

Mal
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Old 08-20-2004, 10:43 PM   #17
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I dunno how serious any of you are about looking into the facts or possible changing your own very well thought out ones that you've stated but if any of you would happen to like to see a very well developed view of God/his exist/ human nature than I suggest reading "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He was an atheist for most of his life and viewed Christianity as merely a myth or crutch people used to to give meanings to their lives. Anyway he set out to prove Christianity wrong and simply ended up coming to the conclusion that Christianity was the most logical answer to the world. The book is very logical, takes no leaps of faith at any point and simplifies Christianity to the level it should be on without all the divisions provided by the modern church. so if any of you are serious about your belief in atheism then i strongly urge you to pick up this book and read through it-it may be very well that you are actually the one taking leaps of logic and depending on a crutch, and not the other way around.
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laharl
Last I checked, you were the one that started off the thread stating something as fact that is very much an opinion.
Do you mean that my title is an opinion, or that my opening statement, "The way I see it," (A.K.A. "In my opinion") is an opinion (because it is obviously so)? The first line was stated as an opinion to give the argument a basis to start from. You still need to be more specific and explain to me what you mean. Tell me exactly what my opinionated statement is, and I will be glad to clear it up. Try not to answer with only one sentence--it will then be easier for me to understand. I'm sorry if I am being more trouble than it's worth, but I think there is a misunderstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherToorima
Not necessarily. Being all good isn't not being able to bad, but choosing to not do anything bad. God could do something bad, but then reality would cease to exist.
You said that reality would not exist if 'God' could do something 'bad.' If 'God' is a reality, then God could not exist if he could do evil. Yes, 'God' could choose to not commit evil, but he is also unable to, whether he chooses to or not. If he could commit evil, he wouldn't exist, therefore, to exist, he must be incapable of doing evil.

To pixabee: I will sincerely consider reading this book. If there is a logical answer that leads to religion that is more potent than my own, it will be well worth the read. I don't understand how believing in God could be logical when his definition itself is illogical, but maybe I am missing something that I haven't come in contact with before. Thanks for the recommendation.

~NEO
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalReynolds
Hey, uh... Chromer. Do you eat shellfish? Nope, you can't. It makes you unclean. Do you wear a polyblend shirt? You could get publicly stoned for this. Do you sacarafice a cow to God? Supposed to do this every certain amount of time. You ever wanna sell your daughter into slavery? You're allowed to. Bible says so. Do you go to work on Sunday? This'll get you a one way ticked to hell. And hey, riddle me this. The bible states that I can buy slaves from neighboring countries, but my friend says this applies to Mexico but not Canada. Why can't I buy Canadians?

Just reexamining the holy book for you gents.

Mal
LOL That was hilarious. Yes those were some crazy times but as Christians we understand that sacrificing a cow in this day and age is just weird. So we give tithes. Giving 10% of your money to God every Sunday is better than slicing open a cow and burning its entrails O_o
'God' does not need money. 'God' does not want your money. Since money gives you power, he is omnipotent. 'God' just wants you to believe in him or else you'll suffer after you die. Also if you believe in another god you're up for the same fate. Oh well...this 'God' must be pretty powerful. He likes cow sacrifices, though.xD
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Old 08-21-2004, 12:51 AM   #20
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There's no way anybody can 100% say they believe in the definition Christians give to their god. It's impossible. Not even a Catholic can say it. There is always doubt that the higher entity could exist and because that doubt exists it will never be proven or disproven that such a being can exist.

End of story.

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