Should we consider double setup "legit"

[Xtreme2252]

I don't understand any of the fuss about double setup. Anyone can do it with one keyboard, which means it doesn't give people an unfair advantage and it is awkward to do in the first place, or else it would be acceptable because everyone would do it. I recall having this conversation with a certain someone in particular who said double setup is equivalent to using a modded controller, or even botting. It is not in any way similar, and many old charts are nearly clearly charted for double setup (Crowdpleaser, RunnyMornings (SGX Mix), AIM Anthem!!!!111111oneoneone111!!!11, Revolutionary Etude, or the joke file vROFL). True that these are all technically possible to AAA (minus vROFL) with spread, but due to awkward layering or sometimes blatant overcharting they are artificially difficult. If you submitted a chart like that nowadays the judges would ip track you, chop off your head and then kick it around like a hackysack, and really no one could blame them for it.

[Gradiant]

Originally Posted by Xtreme2252

many old charts are nearly clearly charted for double setup (Crowdpleaser, RunnyMornings (SGX Mix), AIM Anthem!!!!111111oneoneone111!!!11, Revolutionary Etude, or the joke file vROFL)

??

[choof]

good post

[Charu]

No if anything those files were intended probably to be used on the arrow keys.

Since, y'know, the arrow keys were the only keys being used.

[Xtreme2252]

Originally Posted by Charu

No if anything those files were intended probably to be used on the arrow keys.

Since, y'know, the arrow keys were the only keys being used.

Except for the fact that the game has always had two sets of inputs from the start that anyone has access to on their keyboard from the get-go. And there's that nasty part in AIM Anthem that alternates jumps repeatedly. In single setup this chart is about as intuitive as trying to play Hot For Teacher on drums while sexting your waifu at literally the same time

[Xtreme2252]

Originally Posted by Gradiant

??

Crowdpleaser has the bursty buzzing parts as well as a wall of death with two jacks hidden within it.

RunnyMornings has a section where they've layered every instrument at once, having you doing a snare roll on the right arrow while you do jacks on the down arrow with left arrows thrown in the mix as well all leading into a jump, as well as a section with an odd mess of notes leading into the trill sections.

AIM Anthem has the horrible unintuitive jumpstream section.

Revolutionary Etude has the massively overcharted wall of death near the end.

vROFL practically (if not literally) requires quadholding on a fancy keyboard to FC the wall of death.

[leonid]

You can double setup in BMS and nobody cares or thinks it's cheating.
I think it's worth mentioning whether you played double setup when you got a really good score on JHM because if you didn't double setup it makes your score look much greater

[Gradiant]

Originally Posted by Xtreme2252

Crowdpleaser has the bursty buzzing parts as well as a wall of death with two jacks hidden within it.

RunnyMornings has a section where they've layered every instrument at once, having you doing a snare roll on the right arrow while you do jacks on the down arrow with left arrows thrown in the mix as well all leading into a jump, as well as a section with an odd mess of notes leading into the trill sections.

AIM Anthem has the horrible unintuitive jumpstream section.

Revolutionary Etude has the massively overcharted wall of death near the end.

vROFL practically (if not literally) requires quadholding on a fancy keyboard to FC the wall of death.

I "??"'d that because you know these were clearly made with the purpose of playing them with DS how? Did you make these files? vROFL also has no place in being in this argument as the whole file is a blatantly obvious joke (wasn't made with the intent of being played with DS, it seems to be made with the intent of shitty).

Originally Posted by Xtreme2252

And there's that nasty part in AIM Anthem that alternates jumps repeatedly. In single setup this chart is about as intuitive as trying to play Hot For Teacher on drums while sexting your waifu at literally the same time

Sprindex then (which I know several people including me have AAA'd the file with)? Doesn't really scream DS usage.

[noname219]

I'll quote Nima and Arch0wl :

Originally Posted by Nima

1 hand vs 4 fingers isn't cheap. Like any other bemani game, your style of play is up to you, if you wanna take a disadvantage too bad. But you can't add keys that aren't meant for the game. Your just making some shit up cause you need double setup to do well now? I didn't think you'd go to that level.
Almost everyone knows its cheapshit.

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

A double setup is cheating because 99% of songs were meant to be played on the arrow keys or the numpad, including blur. I meant for you to play blur on the numpad or the arrow keys, and anything else is cheating. In any organized SM tourney if they ever existed they would not let you use a double setup.

[Tyson ultima]

guy's it's a 4key rhythm game just.... let it go.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by Tyson ultima

guy's it's a 4key rhythm game just.... let it go.

[Xtreme2252]

Originally Posted by Gradiant

I "??"'d that because you know these were clearly made with the purpose of playing them with DS how? Did you make these files? vROFL also has no place in being in this argument as the whole file is a blatantly obvious joke (wasn't made with the intent of being played with DS, it seems to be made with the intent of shitty).

Sprindex then (which I know several people including me have AAA'd the file with)? Doesn't really scream DS usage.

The thing about AIM Anthem is that the difficulty and awkwardness of the jumps does not at all suit the sound of the song. It is simply a bad chart that is public so it affects your actual rank, and no offense to Arch0wl but most of their charts are among the most notorious aside from all of the other obvious early charts like Terror From Beyond and Snowman and Sunshine Girl. I would say that even Caprice, although a horrendous chart altogether, is acceptable for spread because the insane right arrow jacks suit the music and they don't even seem overcharted.

Also, although I would like to state that I do not in any way consider double-setup cheating, the only double setup score I have is vROFL which according to people here doesn't count anyways since it's a joke chart. This is why my score on AIM Anthem is absolute shit instead of a AAA, and I strongly think this is due to bad charting. It's charted in a way that practically teaches people how to master double setup and makes it an obvious strategy in the game. Also, the rules on double setup are never made explicit in game, so to be honest many scores are probably done with double setup and there'd be no way to prove it. Also, this was something people completely got away with at the competitive level 8 years ago+, and those old scores which were considered acceptable at the time still affect the leaderboards, aside from the ones that got wiped completely like Mr. Rubix for example.

[Gradiant]

Doesn't really answer my question at all, but okay.

[yo man im awesome]

Frankly, while I hate using the phrase unironically, this is just a case of "get good".

Double Setup is literally adding keys. FFR is not 8key, it's 4key. Regardless of how many fingers you play with, there are 4 keys. 4 places for inputs. Not 8.

Poor charting may assist in hurting your score, but it's been obviously proven beatable, like most files, that through practice it is more than conceivable to do. Everyone hits a skill plateau at least once, it's whether or not you push to go past it that defines whether or not you're a good player. Hell, I haven't even AAA'd Aim Anthem myself, but that's because I'm bad at the patterns and I don't practice playing the file. If I did, I can tell you I'd eventually AAA it.


tl;dr 8key is just not a possibility on FFR, just practice to improve, shortcuts will get you nowhere in the end.

[.-.]

i only play with 1 finger because using 4 is cheating

[Tyson ultima]

I only use arrow keys because the receptors don't say dfjk

[choof]

but you dont play stepmania

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by .-.

i only play with 1 finger because using 4 is cheating

Real mean play only with their penis.

[Trumpet63]

I would say no because the game options don't support double key bindings. If you use an outside program while playing FFR, I think that objectively means cheating. (Or if you got two keyboards plugged in at the same time? Still seems cheaty.)

REALLY THOUGH, I don't think that's the main issue. If the game did have that functionality, I would support its use wholeheartedly. My philosophy about rhythm games is that the interface, or the way in which we manage to trigger the buttons that correspond to the sequence of notes on screen, should not be a factor. This is because I believe that the objective in a rhythm game is to produce correct responses to a stimulus, and the highest achievement is in producing responses faster and faster.

I would like to provide examples to make this a less black-and-white issue though:

1. The rhythm game "Super Dancer Online-Xtreme" features a double key binding by default. (Pretty sure)
2. In Osu!Taiko, you hit notes of only two types, but you use four keys by default. (Looking at the wiki, it says the large notes are supposed to be hit with two keys at once, but you don't lose your combo if you don't.)
3. What if you could bind each possible double or triple to its own key, and train yourself to then use more fingers, but it's not technically a double setup?
4. How much of this debate is dealing with concern over 'mashing' in FFR, which is notably the result of a limitation with the engine?
5. How much of this debate is focused around tradition and fear of change? (I absolutely despise tradition)
6. Check out this video of Guitar Hero played on a modified drum kit. Is his accomplishment lessened by the addition of buttons that correspond to two keys, or by the double yellow buttons?

Hope this made sense